California Legislature Passes law allowing Illigeal Alliens to get Drives Licenses

[Japher]

Arrian

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Arrian
If you believe that these people should be allowed to stay, then it's immigration law you need to get changed. Not licensing laws. This is bizarre.

I agree that a hard look reveals this to be little more then a shallow pander for the votes of illegals and people who sympothize with illegals.

[SlowwHand]

Oerdin, Ramo is a wetback, which explains a lot.

[Sava]

racists

[Ramo]

Drunk driving is a big problem in the states. So, instead of continuing to bust drunk drivers, lets just make it legal

Illegal aliens driving isn't a problem.

Please explain why immagration and naturalization is immoral. BTW You didn't answer the question of how asking people to respect democratically imposed laws is xenophobic. Can you please do so? I'd like to understand your position.

I think that it's fundamentally wrong to force a person from seeking a better life for himself, just because he was born in the wrong place. As for your second question, the law is extremely xenophobic, ergo people who support the law are either xenophobic or legalistic fanatics.

The uninsured issue is relevant here, no? Can an illegal immigrant get insurance? If not, they cannot drive.

I'm pretty sure they can.

The idea of licensing people who, according to a different law, shouldn't even BE HERE, to drive doesn't strike you as insane, Ramo?

Immigration barriers are insane, thus laws ensuring the safety of people on roads vis a vis illegal immigrants would naturally be insane.

[Ramo]

Oerdin, Ramo is a wetback, which explains a lot.

Nah, I'm a towel-head.

[Sava]

Insurance companies will sell policies to anyone who can pay.

[SlowwHand]

@Ramo.

[Oerdin]

Ramo, are you a liberatarian? It's sounding like you are because you are claiming that any government control of the national borders is inherently xenopobic and immoral.

[Japher]

Illegal aliens driving isn't a problem.

Come to Cali. and find out how big of a problem it isn't.

Ever try and sue an illegal?
Ever try and get an illegal arrested?
Illegal aliens are above the law here because they are outside of it, even the cops have their hands tied.

[Ramo]

Not quite. I'm an anarchist.

[Ramo]

And all that would be easier if they were better integrated into the system with drivers' licenses, etc.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Ramo

I think that it's fundamentally wrong to force a person from seeking a better life for himself, just because he was born in the wrong place. As for your second question, the law is extremely xenophobic, ergo people who support the law are either xenophobic or legalistic fanatics.


Immigration barriers are insane, thus laws ensuring the safety of people on roads vis a vis illegal immigrants would naturally be insane.

First, I would like to see a reform of the entire Immigration system, the state its in now even after what the INS has done still has not gone far enough.

Second I am not xenophobic, my mom grandparents lived in Cuba and escaped that communist hell hole right when Castor took power. Also I dont have problem with people immigrating to this country. But we must repect the rule of law and enforce our immgration laws. It is a matter of national security. I dread the day that anther terrorist will sneak into this country through the Mexican border, come to california, get a license, and etheir do a truck bombing or someother horrible attack in the US.

The solution is not to let Mexico and other countries try to export their economic and other problems to the US, the solution is to get these corrupt governments to get their act to gather and actually help their people, instead of ingnore the problem.

Numerous Law enforcment unions are against this bill, because it will make their job a whole lot harder to see who is a terrorist and who belong here in the US. The ATF says that they only way they know that someone is here legaly in the US and therefore has a right to buy guns is by their driver license. By doing this it will allow illigeals to buy guns, and the AFT says their is all ready a problem with gun sumgling into Mexico and that this law will only make it worse. The State Attorney General with drew its support of the bill after the finger print feature was first prohibited from being shared with law enforcement, then taken out completly. THe DMV union is also opposed to this bill. THe IRS opposes the use of Tax payer ID number in place of a social security #. sayin that is just used for tax matters and they can confirm the idenity or status of anyone who signs up for one. So are all there people xenophobic? This is a slap in the face of my grandparents and everyone one else who came to this country legaly, and waited years to become a citizen, while illigeals can by pass the system and get all benifits of being a citizen.

[Kuciwalker]

And all that would be easier if they were better integrated into the system with drivers' licenses, etc.

Well, this isn't the way to do it. If you have a law, enforce it or repeal it, but don't ignore it!

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by skywalker

Quote:

And all that would be easier if they were better integrated into the system with drivers' licenses, etc.

Well, this isn't the way to do it. If you have a law, enforce it or repeal it, but don't ignore it!

I agree totaly, and since when is enforcing immgration laws xenophobic? Every other damn country in the world enforces its immgration laws, and is very strict about its borders, why does the US have to be different?

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Sava
For those of you opposed to this measure: You do realize this might just be a mouse-trap, right?

The DMV cant report illigeals to the INS and the INS is prohibited from looking into their records.

[Kuciwalker]

For heaven's sake, WHY?!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Fifth Amendment issues.

[Kuciwalker]

That's intensely stupid.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Japher
They shouldn't be driving anyways. Anyone who is pulled over w/o a liscense should have their car taken and should be required to show proof of citizenship before they are let go. If they can't do that, boot 'em to the curb.

It's the wrong law to prevent the problem.

Yeah, baby.

Do we assume white people are citizens, and just roust spics and spooks for ID? Or do we roust honkies too? That's a great use of law enforcement resources. How many US citizens routinely carry around proof of citizenship?

And if you don't want 'em driving, provide better bus service to the fields and yuppie houses for maid work and to the sweatshops.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by skywalker
That's intensely stupid.

Whats even more stupid is that the police right now etheir cant or decided on their own not to enforce immgration laws.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by skywalker
That's intensely stupid.

Self incrimination is self-incrimination. Citizenship is not an issue in obtaining a drivers license in any state. Citizenship or a working visa are issues wrt employment. Citizenship is also an issue wrt receiving government benefits. Inquiries in those areas are routine and perfectly legal.

Why not "improve" the system even more, and every time someone goes into any government office for any reason, do full background checks and credit checks? Think of all the criminals you'd catch and all the debtors you could throw in jail until their creditors caught up with them. Never mind that everyone would be waiting forever and a half while Big Brother checked you out, or that your tax dollars and mine would be going to this...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Jack_www


Whats even more stupid is that the police right now etheir cant or decided on their own not to enforce immgration laws.

Why should they? Are they paid by the Feds to do so?

If they're supposed to enforce immigration laws, why not check your tax filings, do postal inspection, customs, or any other sort of Federal law enforcement work for free?

Or is it just about busting those damned illegals?

If you want to solve the illegal immigration problem, it's simple. Confiscate all business and personal assets of anyone who hires one, and throw them in prison for 10 years. Stop the employers, and you stop the migrants, but nobody wants to do that, because we like our cheap produce, cheap clothes at Wal Mart with a Made in USA label on them so we can all be Pay-tree-otic, and we like those cheap, but ever so efficient maids and gardeners we can get to keep our houses spiffy for less than minimum wage.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Why should they? Are they paid by the Feds to do so?

If they're supposed to enforce immigration laws, why not check your tax filings, do postal inspection, customs, or any other sort of Federal law enforcement work for free?

Or is it just about busting those damned illegals?

If you want to solve the illegal immigration problem, it's simple. Confiscate all business and personal assets of anyone who hires one, and throw them in prison for 10 years. Stop the employers, and you stop the migrants, but nobody wants to do that, because we like our cheap produce, cheap clothes at Wal Mart with a Made in USA label on them so we can all be Pay-tree-otic, and we like those cheap, but ever so efficient maids and gardeners we can get to keep our houses spiffy for less than minimum wage.

The Police enforce federal law all the time. While most of the federal law they enforce is already covered by the state(example kidnaping that can cross state lines, or other interstate crimes.) Why now immgration laws?
When we have massive immgration it depress the wages of everyone else, and the illigeals are treated almost like slaves because of their status.
The US really wants cheep goods why not build factories in Mexico and else where? We are already shifting to a service based economy. But Like I said the best way to solve the problem is refrom Mexico and the rest of Central and South American countries. BUt I am a realist and know that is not likely to happen, but we got to start somewere.

[Jack_www]

By the way MichaeltheGreat do you support giving drivers licenses to illigeals?

[MichaeltheGreat]

They enforce Federal law where it overlaps state law, or presents an immediate hazard to public safety. The Feds don't reciprocate, in fact, the ones down here along the border make it clear they don't give a damn. At most, they'll call the locals and let them know there's a problem.

There's also a practical problem of community relations, which is essential to real law enforcement. I remember back in the late 70's to early 80's, when there was a big anti-immigrant enforcement fetish in the San Jose area, and basically, it translated to rousting just about everyone brown for papers. Needless to say, cooperation within the legal hispanic communities with the police was next to non-existent.

Same thing later in the 80's when the big deal was the Feds going to employers and demanding to walk through their businesses, and see the personnel records regarding work eligibility for anyone they picked out. The place I worked then only had two "brown" employees - a guy from Colorado of 3rd or 4th generation Mexican descent, who spoke about ten words of Spanish, and a Filipina whose (Filipino) husband was on active duty as a Chief in the Navy. Invariably, the INS punk or punkette who demanded an impromptu tour of the office would pick out the two brown people, and a random white one who sat in between them, to check their records. And this was an engineering office in a commercial office space in one of the main commercial areas of San Diego, surrounded by defense contractors. Hardly the most likely spot to find illegals, but it was to make a show, and to rub it in.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Jack_www
By the way MichaeltheGreat do you support giving drivers licenses to illigeals?

It's a matter of fact that they do drive, so yes, for practical reasons. If I or my wife or kids get greased by an incompetent, unlicensed driver, I don't care what their immigration status is, so I would prefer to see everyone on the road at least prove they have some competence to be there.

The flip side of that, to prevent voting or any other sort of abuse, is I think that driver's licenses should not be taken as indication of citizenship or any other sort of eligibility.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They enforce Federal law where it overlaps state law, or presents an immediate hazard to public safety. The Feds don't reciprocate, in fact, the ones down here along the border make it clear they don't give a damn. At most, they'll call the locals and let them know there's a problem.

There's also a practical problem of community relations, which is essential to real law enforcement. I remember back in the late 70's to early 80's, when there was a big anti-immigrant enforcement fetish in the San Jose area, and basically, it translated to rousting just about everyone brown for papers. Needless to say, cooperation within the legal hispanic communities with the police was next to non-existent.

Same thing later in the 80's when the big deal was the Feds going to employers and demanding to walk through their businesses, and see the personnel records regarding work eligibility for anyone they picked out. The place I worked then only had two "brown" employees - a guy from Colorado of 3rd or 4th generation Mexican descent, who spoke about ten words of Spanish, and a Filipina whose (Filipino) husband was on active duty as a Chief in the Navy. Invariably, the INS punk or punkette who demanded an impromptu tour of the office would pick out the two brown people, and a random white one who sat in between them, to check their records. And this was an engineering office in a commercial office space in one of the main commercial areas of San Diego, surrounded by defense contractors. Hardly the most likely spot to find illegals, but it was to make a show, and to rub it in.

This sounds a lot like when at the airport they have people who are 70 years old and US citizen take off their shoes and give them a full search.

So you are saying its impossible to enforce immigration laws? That we should not even brother? What do you propose the US do about illigeal immigration?

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


It's a matter of fact that they do drive, so yes, for practical reasons. If I or my wife or kids get greased by an incompetent, unlicensed driver, I don't care what their immigration status is, so I would prefer to see everyone on the road at least prove they have some competence to be there.

The flip side of that, to prevent voting or any other sort of abuse, is I think that driver's licenses should not be taken as indication of citizenship or any other sort of eligibility.

I might be support such a thing if there was a way to make sure a terorist could not get one. Maybe have backround checks for those that cant prove their hear legaly. Only problem is that drives license is used as the main form of ID and weather a person is here legaly, and its very hard to almost impossible to change that fact.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Jack_www
So you are saying its impossible to enforce immigration laws? That we should not even brother? What do you propose the US do about illigeal immigration?

We already pay a ton of tax money to two Federal agencies, Border Patrol and INS, that are the bulk of the manpower and budget of the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection under the new Dept. of Homeland Security scheme. Let them do their jobs, or rather, make them do their jobs, and let the local guys concentrate on local priorities - if you have cause to arrest somebody anyway, if they're illegals, that will come out in the warrant and background check.

As far as illegal immigration goes, a certain amount of it is economically beneficial - the vast majority of them work their asses off in menial jobs we don't want for wages we won't take.

Most of those, I'd rather see them legalized via a work permit scheme that only allowed them legal work in those menial jobs, but gave them a set time to work here. Most do it one of two ways - they either work here for a period of time to send money home and save it up (often to build a house), or they are seasonal commuters who follow the harvests.

Relatively few try to be lifetime residents, because there's a number of things they run into where lack of papers is a real inconvenience. Most of the illegals who do try to stay here permanently or long term are either white or Asian from commonly represented countries (a fair number of Japanese students, eastern Europeans, etc. who try to blend in), or ones who already have relatives here legally, who can help them blend in and cover for them to some extent. That's a separate type of immigrant and a separate problem from the short to mid-term menial laborer.