September 7, 2003, 13:27
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#61
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Deity
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Quote:
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but they'd best treat engineering reports as what they are: expert opinions from qualified professionals, and not dismiss them out of hand as self-serving lobbying
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I think you can consider them as both expert opinions and self-serving lobbying.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 7, 2003, 13:39
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#62
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Settler
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
I know that we spend about 1.5x more of a percentage of our economy on construction than does Europe (2x in absolute terms), for instance.
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Really? From where do you happen to know that?
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 7, 2003, 14:49
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#63
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Deity
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My bad. It appears to be roughly the same as a percentage of economy, and therefore one and a third or whatever per capita in absolue terms.
See page 24 of the following report (marked as page 22)...
http://www.kkc.or.jp/english/activit...ns/aic2000.pdf
Adjusted upward slightly for recent years according to the BEA GDP by industry table...
http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn2/gposhr.htm#1994-2001
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Last edited by DanS; September 7, 2003 at 14:54.
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September 7, 2003, 14:57
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#64
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Settler
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Yup. Btw, the demand side looks a bit different; 9 % for the US, 10-11 % for the EU.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 7, 2003, 15:09
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#65
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Deity
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Where do you get those demand side comparisons?
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 7, 2003, 15:11
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#66
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Settler
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 7, 2003, 15:17
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#67
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Deity
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How do the NIPA accounts relate to the Census accounts?
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 7, 2003, 15:18
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#68
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Settler
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Should be the same, with maybe some adjustments.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 7, 2003, 15:21
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#69
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
$12 billion for 15 stations isn't bad at all, which makes me think they will raise the price tag eventually. DC Metro stations cost about as much and I'm sure are utilized only a fraction of what a Manhattan station is utilized.
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hi ,
whats that going to be , an express line , ...... 
they should also poor some money in the old unused stations , .....
and they could use many of the old railroadtunnels in the five boroughs , .... that would be cheaper then to dig new tunnels , .....
and one way to reduce the cost ; use some convicts from rikers or so , ...... give them something like 10 a day and a reduced sentence , ......
have a nice day 
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September 7, 2003, 15:28
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#70
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Deity
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Quote:
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Should be the same, with maybe some adjustments.
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But then one is double the other. Why?
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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September 7, 2003, 15:33
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#71
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Settler
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If I remember the methodology correctly, the output side counts the value added by the construction industry. The investment use side counts the total value of the structure, so it includes building materials, architect services etc.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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September 7, 2003, 15:42
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#72
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Prince
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Since when are the people on the far left for more heavy construction?
Aren't you afraid you'll "upset the balance of the earth?" or may accidently pave over some "sacred Indian burial ground?" (it happened here a few years ago.)
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-rmsharpe
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September 7, 2003, 16:37
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#73
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Emperor
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I favor more construction projects within reason -- for instance, I would oppose leveling the Rocky Mountains, and then covering it entirely under concrete.
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STFU and then GTFO!
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September 7, 2003, 17:35
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#74
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hi ,
why the heck do they need 15 years for this new line , .....
like there aint enough traffic jam's allready on fifth , ...... 
in 15 years they could build one under each av , .....
and since most lines are allready there , they should re-use whats allready build , .....
darn cityhall ,......
have a nice day
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September 7, 2003, 17:56
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#75
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Emperor
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They could do it inless than 15 years..if in 5 years they forced everyone living within an avenue block of second avenue o leave Manhattan, then tore throught the area at a breakneck speed...
They have to watch out for gas mains, water mains, electric and phone wires and the foundations of local buiuldings. They have to build under the street while not disrupting traffic unduly, they have to demolish various buildings and business to install the entrances to new stations, plus ventilation and emergency exits.
If anything, 15 years is an optimistic timetable.
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If you don't like reality, change it! me
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September 7, 2003, 18:11
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#76
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GePap
They could do it inless than 15 years..if in 5 years they forced everyone living within an avenue block of second avenue o leave Manhattan, then tore throught the area at a breakneck speed...
They have to watch out for gas mains, water mains, electric and phone wires and the foundations of local buiuldings. They have to build under the street while not disrupting traffic unduly, they have to demolish various buildings and business to install the entrances to new stations, plus ventilation and emergency exits.
If anything, 15 years is an optimistic timetable.
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hi ,
come-on , the water tunnels move at at a faster rate , ......
they should never have come up with this new idea , NY is full of unused line , just upgrade them and use those , .....
have a nice day
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September 7, 2003, 18:16
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#77
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Emperor
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Not true. NY is not ful of unused lines. before subways they had elevates, all of which have been either already been made part of the subway system or demolished. Tunnels do not dig themselves, and even back in 1900 it was expensive. as is, there are stretches of lines once used and no longer active, but they run in areas already well served so there is no point. Small parts of this line were already built, and the sty wants to expand and finish them. it would be the first new subway line in at least 50 years.
And since when do water tunnes move?
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If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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September 8, 2003, 17:30
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#78
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GePap
Not true. NY is not ful of unused lines. before subways they had elevates, all of which have been either already been made part of the subway system or demolished. Tunnels do not dig themselves, and even back in 1900 it was expensive. as is, there are stretches of lines once used and no longer active, but they run in areas already well served so there is no point. Small parts of this line were already built, and the sty wants to expand and finish them. it would be the first new subway line in at least 50 years.
And since when do water tunnes move?
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hi ,
water tun = building moves , .....
there are still plenty of tunnels build after WWII , some stations where closed in the seventies , a couple a decade later if correct , ......
there are some people who have made some great websites about it , .....
and dont forget all the railroad tunnels who lay there unused , .....
or all the mole people who live in them , ........
will look up links later
have a nice day
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September 8, 2003, 17:58
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#79
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Emperor
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What about all those secret tunels where the mole people live?
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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September 8, 2003, 18:05
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#80
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What about all those secret tunels where the mole people live?
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hi ,
they aint that secret , just go down to cityhall , records office , con-ed also has some great detailed plans , ......
have a nice day
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September 8, 2003, 20:16
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#81
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Emperor
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A random tunnel is not the same as a line: a tunnel that goes 5-10 blocks is of no use, specially if it has no tracks, poor ventilation, no electricity, so forth and so on. Yes, some stations were closed, no lines were, so even if some stations were closed, they were on still functioning lines.
So yes, the MTA has to dig brad new tunnels and do all I said to get a new line of subway. Plus, new lines need only go were they are needed, not where someone happened for different reasons to dig a tunnel.
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