Revolutionary Strategy Implications of C3C - Page 2

CerberusIV · September 8, 2003, 10:48

I have taken recently to playing archipelago maps with ROP's and alliances pushed back to Republic/Monarchy, Communications trading pushed back to Education and map trading to Navigation.

The main effect I noticed is that the AI's can no longer bring each other into alliances so early in the game. This helps the player get a decent military together and means that you can tell one AI to shove their demands knowing that they can't they get the rest to war with you.

The communications trading isn't such a big thing if you have galleys out and about. On a standard map at least, it doesn't take long to explore coastlines (unless you are on an isolated continent but then you're stuck anyway). Even though the AI's could contact each other by galley in most of my games they often don't and I end up selling communications when I get education.

The delayed map trading is quite a big handicap to aggressive players. Basically it means guesstimating how strong your enemy really is and also doing a lot more scouting whilst you invade. It makes early scouting (before the AI's build many cities and establish cultural borders) very important so get those warriors built and out. Definitely important for expansionists and Aztecs.

ZargonX · September 8, 2003, 11:33

I think where these changes will be really intersting is playing on something like Marla's Earth with 24 civs. It may give the world more of a feeling of having to explore, rather than just meeting one or two civs and suddenly having a map of the entire planet.

TheArsenal · September 8, 2003, 13:05

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV

The communications trading isn't such a big thing if you have galleys out and about. On a standard map at least, it doesn't take long to explore coastlines (unless you are on an isolated continent but then you're stuck anyway). Even though the AI's could contact each other by galley in most of my games they often don't and I end up selling communications when I get education.

Even on a large map (not so much with huge maps), two galleys sent to explore in opposite directions can traverse the world in a surprisingly short period of time. That combined with establishing embassies to see where each civ’s capitol lie, gives one a pretty good idea of the shape of the world.

As far as the early era wars goes: the lack of map knowledge not only handicaps one as to the size of an opponent, but it also can blind one as to the size of any potential alliance partner the civ may bring in a war against you. That could be interesting and will require that much more exploration prior to launching an attack. And, depending on how the map is set up (just as an example, imagine civs stacked on top of one another like pieces of paper in a pile), despite the civ you’re attacking having limited contact, it is entirely possible that each alliance partner brings in another, and you are fighting against several civs which you have no real knowledge of strength or size wise.

As a huge/large map player, I like this change. I think it will bring a sense of discovery back into the game and will be more than a little significant.

sabrewolf · September 8, 2003, 13:24

and it might even give some sence to the explorer

ChrisiusMaximus · September 8, 2003, 13:30

What useful explorers !! is such a concept plausible

I have to agree though it would be nice to have to explore much more.

CerberusIV · September 8, 2003, 16:36

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf
and it might even give some sence to the explorer

Not when explorers and map trading become available with the same tech.

dexters · September 8, 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Apparantly Conquests includes this earth-shaking modification:

Tweaked Diplomacy
- Communication trading now comes with Printing Press
- Map trading now comes with Navigation

That changes everything. The ancient era will no longer be over in the BC period, which will in turn change the shape of the following era. It also makes the expansionist trait into a long-term cartographic monopoly.

I say thank you.

It limits the human exploiter's ability to rob the AI blind.

sabrewolf · September 8, 2003, 16:43

except if _both_ civs would need to have navigation

... but i doubt that...

btw: i didn't mean it too serious. havn't found much sence in the explorer except if resource grabbing and pillaging...

Arrian · September 8, 2003, 16:45

Explorers do have a use: pillaging. I use them to cut resources.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · September 8, 2003, 16:53

Am I the only player who finds the computer's ability to out-trade the human in the ancient era more aggravating than beneficial to the player?

I feel so ashamed...

Rhothaerill · September 8, 2003, 16:56

It's aggravating, but it's also part of the difficulty level. Part of the fun is figuring out a way to promote your own trading and ways of winning.

TheArsenal · September 8, 2003, 16:59

Quote:

and it might even give some sence to the explorer

This may be the single unit I've never built.

Yahweh Sabaoth · September 8, 2003, 17:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
It's aggravating, but it's also part of the difficulty level. Part of the fun is figuring out a way to promote your own trading and ways of winning.

I guess so. I've gotten better at it. But still, I often start games in primo conditions only to find that the Arabs, Zulus and Mongols are building the Great Wall, Great Library and Great Everythingelse by the time I discover mapmaking. It drives me crazy. So, I'm looking forward to these changes, although I'm not sure if they should be coined "revolutionary" or just "important".

Also looking forward to less expanionists.

Panag · September 8, 2003, 17:25

Quote:

Originally posted by TheArsenal

This may be the single unit I've never built.

hi ,

use it for pillaging

or mod it and give it a one attack point , great for going after wounded units or barbs then , ......

have a nice day

Panag · September 8, 2003, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

I guess so. I've gotten better at it. But still, I often start games in primo conditions only to find that the Arabs, Zulus and Mongols are building the Great Wall, Great Library and Great Everythingelse by the time I discover mapmaking. It drives me crazy. So, I'm looking forward to these changes, although I'm not sure if they should be coined "revolutionary" or just "important".

Also looking forward to less expanionists.

hi ,

, make it so that only civ X can build wonder Y , ......

have a nice day

Donegeal · September 10, 2003, 03:01

Ok, I don't think I have seen this mentioned, but I have a small comment on the "no-map-trading" issue. Sure, maps won't be able to be traded until Nav, but how about stolen? From the moment you can establish an embassy, you have the ability to steal another civs world map.

Cort Haus · September 10, 2003, 05:31

donegeal, I'd be surprised if they're stealable early when they're not tradable.

Donegeal · September 10, 2003, 09:06

Have you ever even tried it after you develope writting? I haven't, but I will try when I get home....

Donegeal mumbles something quietly under his breath about forced overtime....

Yahweh Sabaoth · September 10, 2003, 10:33

I've never stolen maps that I can trade for. But if I could steal maps after writing, I'd be tempted to.

So in other words, I hope they leave that as is. It would make sense: a diplomat has access to the crude maps of the empire, or at least, very thorough information.

Panag · September 10, 2003, 17:01

Quote:

Originally posted by donegeal
Ok, I don't think I have seen this mentioned, but I have a small comment on the "no-map-trading" issue. Sure, maps won't be able to be traded until Nav, but how about stolen? From the moment you can establish an embassy, you have the ability to steal another civs world map.

hi ,

give it a try , .........

stealing maps becomes available with " espionage " , .....

have a nice day

Donegeal · September 10, 2003, 17:02

Yeah... just got home and saw that....

Bummer...