Guns, Germs, and Steel - Page 3

TCO · September 6, 2003, 13:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin
GG&S is an excellent book. TCO needs to get over his "he complements the evil saavges, it must be motivated by the left blah, blah, blah."

I don't mind him complementing the evil savages. I have seen some results which showed very high IQ's for certain Amerind tribes. What I think is silly is to claim the NG superiority without evidence. It is simplistic to assume that distribution of intellignece is the same in different SORTs of primitive cultures.

TCO · September 6, 2003, 13:53

It seems like he makes the statement more out of Odin-like frustration than any real evidence.

TCO · September 6, 2003, 13:54

He wants it to be true, so it is. He is PC. Therefore, the Europeans need to be taken down a peg.

TCO · September 6, 2003, 13:55

If I was really so Euro-centric racist, I would be pissed off about all the Chinese beating us on tests.

Odin · September 6, 2003, 14:02

I was going to apoplogize to TCO untill I saw his "he is PC" rant.

Boris Godunov · September 6, 2003, 14:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin
Him being a conservative and a southerner makes it seems he has an ideological bone to pick.

So it's okay for you to make bigotted generalizations against a certain group (Southerners)?

Please. First, I don't think TCO has ever shown he's particularly conservative. Second, you should take his arguments for what they are and deal with the points he makes instead of attacking him for where he comes from. You'd think that being a progressive would clue you in as to how fallacious and weak such attacks are.

TCO · September 6, 2003, 14:08

With you guys defending me so honorably and all, I am going to have to refrain from ad hominem attacks. I mean from flaming his cherry ass. Not used to this taking the high road.

Imran Siddiqui · September 6, 2003, 16:34

It's not all it's cracked up to be, bud

.

JohnT · September 6, 2003, 18:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin

I am suspicious of the reasons he is dissing the book, it seems that he can't admit that us europeans are no better than anybody else. Him being a conservative and a southerner makes it seems he has an ideological bone to pick.

Let me ask you: Do you find anything bigoted in what you said?

Elok · September 6, 2003, 20:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin
GG&S is an excellent book. TCO needs to get over his "he complements the evil saavges, it must be motivated by the left blah, blah, blah."

He does not in any way complement the evil savages. So far as I can tell Diamond lives an entirely different lifestyle from the natives of New Guinea. They don't go together at all.
Coo-coo-ka-woo.

TCO · September 6, 2003, 23:28

It's called "slumming"

Ted Striker · September 7, 2003, 00:00

Take the low road Player it's alot more fun nowadays

TCO · September 7, 2003, 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Take the low road Player it's alot more fun nowadays

got the t-shirt.

Ecthy · September 7, 2003, 16:25

TCO you've been multiposting.

Ramo · September 7, 2003, 17:48

Quote:

Don't have a problem with plausible arguments. He just overstates his thesis. Proving (giving him credit here) on factor does not disprove others.

I don't think he's saying that. I think that he's saying that his personal experience is that New Guineans tend to be smarter than Westerners, so factors other than ethnicity probably determine whether or not a society is capable of developing civilization. And the meat of the book explains what some of these factors might be.

TCO · September 10, 2003, 21:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

I don't think he's saying that. I think that he's saying that his personal experience is that New Guineans tend to be smarter than Westerners, so factors other than ethnicity probably determine whether or not a society is capable of developing civilization. And the meat of the book explains what some of these factors might be.

You missed my point (with respect to multiple factors). I'm referring to a much more global issue raised by the book and by its supporters. Specifically that it is a refuation of genetic intellectual variance among the races of man.

TCO · September 10, 2003, 21:39

I also think it is rather silly for him to cite his personal basis for thinking one race is smarter than another
(from an isolated interaction) and ignore any testing evidence/literature.

Odin · September 10, 2003, 22:36

Sorry about the Fezzing (or should it be Odinning

). I had just read the book and I have kind of a short fuse. I was kicking myself when MtG hit me with his banning rod.

Anyway, Diamond's arguments seem good; abouth the New Guineans, I don't think etnic groups have any in-born differences in intellegence, but the type of intellegence vairies. A good example I found when I was researching ADHD. I read an article that said that the longer a society was agricultural the lower the incidence of ADHD, Australian Aborigines and the Khoisan people of S. Africa having among the highest rates and China having among the lowest, most other groups fit this pattern. So ADHD helps hunter-gatherers and pastorialists; it is selected against in agricultural societies. I have ADHD by the way.

Al B. Sure! · September 10, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

I have ADHD by the way.

why must you tell us this? you make a sensible point (amazing coming from you as can be shown by your previous posts in this thread), and then you throw in some self-obsession thing. calm down, boy... at least you're learning

Odin · September 10, 2003, 22:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer

why must you tell us this? you make a sensible point (amazing coming from you as can be shown by your previous posts in this thread), and then you throw in some self-obsession thing. calm down, boy... at least you're learning

*Puts duct tape on mouth*

Ecthy · September 11, 2003, 16:07

bump

chequita guevara · September 11, 2003, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
And it is the "solely" part that disturbs me. Once again, in Diamonds Universe the world of ideas and beliefs have nothing to do with the development of civilizations.

Ideas and beliefs tend to follow the material environment. There is a reason why those ideas appeared in NorthWestern Europe and not elsewhere, which has to do with the conditions that the people living there had to face. But then these ideas can be the impetus to change the environment, which can give rise to a new set of ideas.

lord of the mark · September 11, 2003, 16:37

In some cases GGS is on shaky ground - for example his theories on the origin of Malayo-Polynesian language family. So take all specific assertions with a grain of salt. But still an interesting introduction to lots of big ideas on macrohistory.

Particularly should be on the reading list of every Civ player.

lord of the mark · September 11, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Elok

He does not in any way complement the evil savages. So far as I can tell Diamond lives an entirely different lifestyle from the natives of New Guinea. They don't go together at all.
Coo-coo-ka-woo.

But at least some of the New Guinea natives think a nice Cabernet complements Diamond very nicely.

MrFun · September 11, 2003, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Particularly should be on the reading list of every Civ player.

. . . which is one reason I have it -- I'm a Civ fan.

Straybow · September 11, 2003, 23:28

Concentration takes effort. It is a discipline. ADHD is just another way of saying lazy.

Seriously though: One speculation about ADHD is that it is environmentally triggered. Instant gratification is an acquired addictive behavior.

Another related speculation is that ADHD is way over-diagnosed for people raised in intrinsically distracting environments.

Ecthy · September 12, 2003, 12:10

1. what is ADHD?

2. I can't find no History of the World by Roberts, only his Penguin History of Europe and a History of the World In 10 1/2 Chapters by a Mr Barnes...

JohnT · September 12, 2003, 13:15

1. ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. It's another one of those "diseases", like peanut allergies, that apparently didn't exist 30 years ago but now people left and right are suffering from it. Yes, I'm going to get flamed mightily for this statement, but I don't care.

2. History of the World. It's gone through a number of name changes since first published - it also used to be called "Penguin History of the World", etc.

Elok · September 12, 2003, 15:09

ADHD is a genuine but highly over-diagnosed disorder. The "hyperactive" component is not always prevalent or even present; I'm just inattentive without Concerta. I remember trying to take tests back in fourth grade and being quite literally incapable of concentration. My mind would instantaneously lock onto another subject the second I began to focus on the task at hand, no matter how I tried. I nearly drove myself to tears trying to keep busy in some cases. Some of it I outgrew, and the continuous medication has probably had a long-term effect on my behavior, but I'm pretty sure it's not purely a product of pop-culture imagination.
And LotM: ironically, I had three or four glasses of wine in me when I wrote that remark.