Red Front 1.4 is here!

Captain Nemo · March 18, 2000, 14:53

I just released version 1.4 after 2 months of work and testplay. It will be on StLeo's site and Alex's War Gallery shortly. I also sent it to CSC but I'm not sure that site is being updated anymore?

This is going to be it for Red Front upgrades for a while... (Although I have many more ideas!) I will be working with John Petroski on "Austieg" and complete an update of 2194 Days of War.

For those who haven't played Red Front here is a screenshot of Operation Citadel(Battle of Kursk)in 1943

And here is the "Soviet Tank Park"...As you can see there are quite a few units with different statistics and capabilites: Military tech development plays a major role in the game. Note also the summer and winter versions of some tanks.

And another screenshot from the scenario

[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited March 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited April 03, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited April 27, 2000).]

Djugashvili · March 18, 2000, 19:07

HUGE Problem #1 Remains!!

October 1941: 'Too many units! A new unit cannot be created in the game. Try disbanding some.'
I thought this was fixed!

It's v e r y irritating seeing this message after getting into a game... it's disastrous for gameplay, as well. Instead of releasing a whole new version to fix this, Nemo, could you just describe on this forum how to edit the events file and have people fix it for themselves? This HAS to be solved if I'm ever to play the scenario again...

St Leo · March 18, 2000, 23:44

My site is in the process of being redesigned, so I suggest you rely on Alex for the moment.

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

DarthVeda · March 19, 2000, 01:12

Nemo, Can I try developing a German version of this scenario after I finish Rising Sun?

Captain Nemo · March 19, 2000, 06:27

Djugashvili: Here is what the issue is with the "Too many units"...:

The game is not too near the maximum number of units allowed when you start (Approx. 1600 vs max 2048?). However, the German strategy of 1941, which is one of the key elements of the game and gives the "unstoppable German war machine" feel relies on creating units progressively nearer to the front line. This is done by events triggered by the killing of units...

So depending on your game strategy those numbers can vary greatly. I reduced the numbers in play at the beginning of the game significantly since version 1.3 and neither myself nor other testplayers ran into the problem with 1.4... However I cannot test every style of play. If a lot of fighting goes on early on and the German lose a bunch of units they recreate them in greater numbers and before you know it you're over the limit again. Taking off another 50 starting units won't help that much if you play an aggressive style in 1941... On the other hand if I reduce the unit creation events, there won't be enough to achieve historical results in 1941 if you play a "defensive" style and pull units Eastward ahead of the Germans.

As you can see there is no easy fix! Otherwise I would have done it.

I already significantly reduced defending units in Western German cities since they aren't needed until 1944.

One factor that helps: The problem goes away by Dec 1941 because Germans stop creating units at such a high rate. I have never seen the problem in 1942 in any version. You could eliminate a few more German starting units from each of the "large" stacks in Eastern Poland without risking to affect gameplay too much.
Also cut out more of the defending units in Western Germany. (But many cities already are down to 1 or 2 defenders).

BTW, most of the changes in 1.4 were not to fix this problem but rather to improve the late gameplay in 1944-45.
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited March 19, 2000).]

March 19, 2000, 06:32

Is the scenario available for download somewhere?

Captain Nemo · March 19, 2000, 06:38

I sent it to StLeo and Alex yesterday... They have yet to place it on their sites. I sent it in parallel to a number of gamers who requested it so that's how they have it already.

March 19, 2000, 06:41

OK...

Captain Nemo · March 19, 2000, 12:41

DarthVeda:
You're welcome to do it. Remember John Petroski is making a new "Austieg" which will include the attack on the Soviet Union, changes of seasons and many of the Red Front graphics... and new ones that I am making right now.

klesh · March 19, 2000, 14:26

Djugashvili,
The Captain speaks the truth. I ran into this with 1.3 recently whilst trying to pump out Labor Brigades for the Urals. I got the "Too Many Units" thins about 25 times per turn and it lasted for about 4 turns!!!!
So I got on Apolyton and posted the situation. Followed Nemo's advice of "play on" and sure enough, in a few turns (Winter'41) the problem was gone. It didn't even really effect the industrialization too much either. It's now '44 and the Germans are on the ropes

Check with your foriegn minister to see just how many units the Germans have...you'll begin to see their decline. But they start with like 1600 units!
To think how hard this would be to defend against if the "AI" had any "I" in it!!!!

Djugashvili · March 19, 2000, 16:26

Well, guess what?

The too many units thing only came up once, in Oct41. It never showed up again, at least as far as I have played so far. I did disband some of the Red Army units in the very well fortified cities, and often reduced garrisons in Ural cities to 3, the maximum for martial law. So I'm happy now

But I have noticed this version is alot harder, even on the emperor level I played on. After the first winter, it didn't look too good... The Germans bombed lots of my laborers and I was dissapointed when they beat down Leningrad and Rostov to virtually nothing one turn after the snow had melted!! I'm gonna start a new game soon to see if I can overcome this somehow... I'll keep you posted, Nemo...

March 19, 2000, 18:14

nemo, can you send your scenario to svenm@apolyton.net??
check this page first http://apolyton.net/civ2/db/submitfile.shtml

thanks

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Markos, Apolyton Civilization Site

Djugashvili · March 20, 2000, 01:55

So Nemo, what you're saying is is that I should just wait the few extra turns without building any units until December, then the problem should go away? I'll do that, just as long as the problem doesn't spill over into other parts of the scenario...

Mao · March 20, 2000, 18:18

yeah, send it to apolyton, 'bout time they get some good scenarios there (no offense) sure the server's big enough markos? it's 5 sections

Djugashvili · March 20, 2000, 21:51

Wow... Summer 42 is MUCH harder than before. It used to be that if you made it through the initial summer, you were on a path to victory, but the next one is even HARDER!! Although I managed to put up a good fight, it all fell apart by August. Leningrad and Rostov were captured. Operation Blau was a success; not in the fact that they captured Stalingrad, but that it managed to open the door for a Caucasus offensive. That new city between Stalingrad and Rostov took some punishment!!

Anyways, I got discouraged when all this happened even when I played on emperor level. The Germans were sneaking through the holes and attacking Ural cities! It was a mess... I was pleased with my progress through the first two parts of the scenario, and I thought I was safe, but all hell broke loose...

Three cheers for Komrade Nemo!!

Captain Nemo · March 21, 2000, 01:13

Yes, it's tougher... And the Germans continue to fight all the way to the end while their military equipment improves!
The endplay isn't that easy either, but you'll still win if you stick to the basic strategy of version 1.3
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited March 21, 2000).]

Sten Sture · March 22, 2000, 14:50

The season *.bat files won't care if I run this in the Program files/MicroProse/blah blah blah MGE/Scenario path vs the old Civ FW paths, will they? I looked at them and it didn't seem like it would make any difference, but I thought I would ask...

(I really like the mine/factory production bonus with a long build out features - I think that is a great idea!)

Captain Nemo · March 22, 2000, 21:15

No it shouldn't matter where the files are located as long as the .bat is in the same directory as the files it accesses and that the sound directory is a subdirectory of that directory.

Here is the next step: Event triggered reloads.

For example: On capture of town X behind German lines "Town X captured, German 6th Army is encircled in Stalingrad, supply route to... is cut off. Panzers are running out of fuel & the Wehrmacht is starving. Save game now and run Redfront.bat and execute option 18"

Option 18 loads a new rules.txt file where the Panzer movement is 0 and the Wehrmacht is a air unit with a move of 1 and 3 turns airborne (They will "crash" if they don't reach safety within 3 turns)

Kull · March 24, 2000, 00:50

Now you've done it Nemo! That idea effectively eliminates the Events file size limit! Plus, it theoretically allows you to construct a "Branching Tree" of events to allow for and respond to almost any occurrence in a scenario. God help us all.

I'm going to have to noodle on this one for a while. Of one thing i'm fairly certain.....Scenario creators everywhere are probably torn between offering congratulations or hurling invective!

klesh · March 24, 2000, 16:02

Ahhh Nemo,

May I suggest the afore-mentioned subject of changing Hitler's name for the Germans after the fall of Berlin to Grand Admiral Doenitz. Add a few other things to that event, and it would certainly be worth reloading... Plus your new menu version of loading the .bat files would make this really easy to use.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

Captain Nemo · March 25, 2000, 00:58

Field Marshal Klesh:

Unfortunately the leader name change isn't as easy as 1-2-3... It' not in the rules.txt file, it's in the .sav file. And of course you can't just replace that file without reloading all the rest of the game, like unit positions, terrain and city improvements, tech advances, city sizes etc.

My thought goes far beyond this: I need to find a compiler that allows me to create an exe file that "manipulates" the .sav files.
I would now "read" unit positions, improvements and technology advances etc... and edit them into another file: This would allow a game where campaigns are played on small scale detailed maps on a day to day or hour to hour basis and then "imported" into the global map.
Here is an example: You could play Normandy with an hour-by-hour first day with the map being just the beaches and immediate surroundings then switch to a "France" map where the goals are to get to the Rhine in weekly turns. The key is to transfer the units and captured cities from the small map to the larger one. I can easily do it with the Hex editor BUT it needs to be automatic, hence a batch executable hex editing program...

Any suggestions on what programming language would be the best suited?

Captain Nemo · March 25, 2000, 18:44

I looked at C++ and Visual Basic compilers today... Of course they are geared towards building slick Windows applications not auto-editing Hexfiles and the boxes don't talk much about what hex-editing commands are included...

I don't know much about these new types of Compilers and the "Visual" environment. I have written quite a few programs in the old MS pro-basic and QBX as well as C but that was in the DOS days... how do these newer compilers work, do they have micro-programming tools like the old ones did?
Anyone that has experience with this type of work is urged to answer...Thanks

klesh · March 26, 2000, 01:55

Nemo,
I wish I was able to offer good technical advice, alas I'm not very computer savy. The extent of my suggestions has to be only theorhetical.

That quick liitle idea you just said is perfect. That's the kind of forward thinking that I've come to love from playing your scenarios...

That idea seems like a perfect way for a large invasion to locigally progress. Keep up that technical work, whilst I'll keep on daydreaming about cool stuff to add. Hopefully I could think up somethin good for ya.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited March 25, 2000).]

Sten Sture · March 28, 2000, 14:27

Oh Captain, my Captain -

Abolutely astounding production! I bow in your direction.

Q's regarding RFv1.4 in Deity using MGE.

When I ran the initial #1 .bat file to set the game, I got an error messege saying that the RedFront.sav file was not found. I don't remember if there was a .sav file included in the original download, but I had not started the game yet, so I know I didn't create one. This may not matter, but it was a little unsettling.

At the start of the first turn several of the production boxes were overflowing without producing the unit in question and the only units that could be moved in that turn were some (20%) ground units that had previously been fortified. I can assume this is by design for game balance, but after the .bat file error message I was concerned.

Captain Nemo · March 28, 2000, 21:49

Absolutely right...
The first time you run the bat file it "tries" to delete the events out of the non existent rf.sav and gives you an error... I could simply omit the delevents command in the first load, but I used it anytime I was testing changes to the events file during 1941 (If you run the bat file in August, for example, after saving rf.sav, it deletes the events and loads any new event file with the name events1.txt) I left it in for that purpose.

Yes, the first turn is June 1941 which was only 1 week (The attack was the 22nd) so I thought it appropriate that the Germans would be the only ones to move in that Month... A few Soviet units can also be moved by a quirk in Civ2 since technically the Soviet player has not had his turn in June. Any event created units will definitely be allowed to move (Partisans)

Sten Sture · March 29, 2000, 01:32

Thanks! That solves that issue. Therefore, I would presume that taking advantage of the "unfortifying" quirk and moving units would be outside your intended parameters.

Oops!

A brief note with this explanation in the Readme might be helpful.

I was planning on replaying the June41 turn anyway. Looks great!
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited March 29, 2000).]

Captain Nemo · March 29, 2000, 22:23

If you can accomplish something by unfortifying the units in June and moving them, do it! There is NOTHING you can do in the summer of 1941 that will significantly change the outcome of the war for the better... There are lots of things you can do (And not do) that will make it significantly worse (Like letting your refugees die).

Scott F · March 30, 2000, 14:53

Captain Nemo:
I have a couple of suggestions for any future version of Red Front (though 1.4 is pretty much perfect, I think).

Add camoflauge schemes to German tanks. After the winter of 1941, the Germans learned their lesson and painted their tanks in winter camoflauge schemes, just like your Russian tanks are painted. It would be nice to see camofluage like that on the kV-1 tanks on German Tigers and Panthers later in the war too.
After the winter of 42-43, the Germans started to apply stuff called Zimmerit to the outsides of their tanks that pretty much nullified magnetic mines. Maybe in the summer of '43, the minefield terrain could have a lower movement factor to represent this. After the summer of 43, if the human player isn't ready to start to drive back the Russians, this will make things hard for him.

Captain Nemo · March 30, 2000, 23:05

Good suggestion on the German tanks... Of course I did it to give the entire German motorized forces a real unitized look. I have made at least 10-12 more German units since Red Front so if there is a version 1.941 it will be expanded. Painting units is the most time consuming part of building a scenario (By far). For Red Front I designed the equivalent of 3 full games worth of units! By the end I was burned out...So the Germans never got winter armor. Their summer camo patterns are more difficult to do. They are not like the typical russian or Allied tank and the color palette in Civ2 is missing some blue-greens and Grey-greens I would need.

Regarding the Zimmerit coating it was of no use in minefields. It was applied to prevent the hand-carried magnetic mines from sticking to the tanks. Russian pioneer and anti-tank squads had become deadly and daring at running up to a tank and sticking a magnetic mine to the hull. In street fighting it was even worse because the tanks passed so close to houses that provided cover for the anti-tank squads.

But lowering the Minefields movecost to 2 or 3 would make it very interesting: Tanks could pass through a single depth field in one turn but not through a double wide... A bit more strategy involved here...
Currently I am working with John Petroski on Austieg... I am churning out units for the Allies and minor Nations... Some of my best work yet.

What will follow? I don't know yet but here are the suggestions:
- Harlan suggests that I improve the map for RedFront. He has even offered to make a 100% accurate map for me. I would "Just" have to replace the cities, units, improvements and edit the rules so the move unit coordinates are correct.
- He also has suggested that I make a ToT version of the game considering that ToT has much more powerful events and 18 additional unit slots.
My own ideas which I have played with for a while
-Normandy 1944, short scenario played in days not weeks or months. Large scale map 100% tactical, no development or economics
-Stalingrad 1942-1943. Super large scale with only the city and immediate surroundings
-Afrika 1940-1943... Not fully thought through yet, but I like the idea of desert warfare, the Mediterranean air and sea battles and the nice graphics that could come from this...

Well what do you think?

Xin Yu · March 31, 2000, 00:23

Captain Nemo: When you update Redfront, please change certain 0-attack units' attack to 1. Those apply to the 'hedgedog', 'fortified artillary', and 'panton bridge'. Partisans can kill 0-attack units easily.