Science and culture

Osmaniac · September 10, 2003, 16:24

Hello!
I'm new to this site - but I like what I've seen so far...

I'm sure the subject has been debated in some earlier threads - but the easy thing seems to be just to ask the question once more:

What do you have to do to keep up with the AI-players in science, first of all (but also in culture).

I'm playing the hardest difficulty level - singleplayer - and I could really need some help. It's kind of fustrating when all of a sudden I get destroyed by cavalery in 500 AD :-(

So the question is this:
What is you're strategy concerning science and culture?
How do you match/beat the computer when playing on Deity?

Arrian · September 10, 2003, 16:29

Go here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=94379

There are two threads listed in there about "Deity for beginners" (which, to me, is an oxymoron), and several other Deity threads.

Deity is beyond me. I stick to Monarch & Emperor. So I'm not gonna try and advise you.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · September 10, 2003, 18:59

Deity is not a good place to start playing CivIII. If you have learned how to get ahead in tech at emperor, then you already know what to expect.
The being taken out is really a function of military as much as tech. If you are percieved as weak by the AI, it will soon be extorting from you and then attacking you.
The timing of when these things occurs is very much dependant upon the game settings and your style of play.
If you are on a std map or a huge map and how many civs will impact tech rates. Are you a builder or a serious warmonger. If I make nearly nothing but troops, workers and some settlers, the game plays differnetly than if I go with a looser city placement and try to build my empire.
It is usually a good idea to give the game settigns and at least a screen or two, better yet a save. Then some conclusions may be possible.
I agree with Arrian that A) look at the threads B) even though I have won some games at deity, I am not a deity player.

Konquest02 · September 10, 2003, 20:30

I think the best thing for you to do is to look at the forums (the threads which Arrian showed are excellent), step down one or two level in difficulty (play one or 2 games at Monarch and Emperor). Once you will be winning frequently on Emperor, I suggest to move up to Deity. There are really few players who would qualify as "deity players"... Not that I'm trying to diminish any of your accomplishements, not at all...

As vmxa1 said, the minute the AI will percieve you as weak, it will ask all kind of foolish demands to you, or else he'll crush you. :evilgin: Many ways can get you out of this spiral: early warfare, quick REX then warfare, ULTRASTRONG economy then pump out the troops...

Keep in mind that I'm not a deity player at all, just a guy who's trying to help!

--Kon--

Osmaniac · September 10, 2003, 22:48

Hi again - and thanks for the fast replyes :-) . Before I went to this site i visited a danish CIV3 site and asked some questions.... That was 2 days ago, and still no answer. So in comparison, your fast replyes was very welcome. Especially since I've been trying desperately to figure out a solution to the problem with this difficulty level on my own meanwhile.

After reading some of the threads I'm ready to give it a try with a new fresh perspective. I've been using the same strategy from warlord til emperor, with good results.
A general description of my games is this:
I play Ottomans, mostly because they are scientific - but also because of the Sipahi. I think it's a great unit because you can get military tradition relatively fast, usually I got i betwen 500 - 750 AD. And the you can use it to destroy your enemies till they get infantry. So it's a unit that can be used for a long time.
All my games have also been 16 AI-players. Huge map. Smal, or medium, land mass. Continents. Random climate.
So far my strategy have been to get about 10-20 cities. Build up my empire while until I get military tradition. 1 - max 3 spearmen. And then keep the AI-players happy with gifts. At the same time I keep my research at 80% (avarage).
The bonus with this strategy is that I have been able to build a very strong infrastructure in all games I have played. As long as you remember to offer presents to those who have a military that is stronger than yours (wich is almost everyone, when you only have 1-3 spearmen i each of your cities) - it goes just fine.
At the time I attack a foreign nation the first time I have sacked my spearmen and build a couple of riflemen in each of my cities. And I have between 50 - 150 sipahi.
These are the used to attack all those who dont have infantry yet (not at the same time of course ;-)).
When the first great war is over I usually wait till year 2000 before I attack again. This time with as many nukes as possible and several hundred modern armors.
The only thing that can keep me from total domination is if one of the AI's have grown as big as half the map (or more).

This maybe sonds like I shouldn't have any problems with the last difficulty level. But I have. Never the less; there are many interesting tactics in the links you you've mentioned. In particular I like the one about turning the AI's four great advantages into your own. Also I never used to use the approach wher you take half the country, then get peacetreaty plus x advances. I allready tried the last one and it works nicely.

Well. Just tought I'd share my previous tactic with you. Of course I will return once I've beaten Deity, alon with adetailed explanation of how i did it.

Untill then!

PS: As you can propably gather from my story above I have been playing the game for some time now. It seems to me that you got the idea that I started playing on deity :-o Well, perhaps I'm wrong - but if I'm not let me correct you. I started on warlord then moved up as I won.

vmxa1 · September 10, 2003, 23:47

It was not clear, but I for one did get the idea that you were leaping straight into deity.
We will look forword to your report.

fanes7 · September 11, 2003, 00:24

Oh, sorry , I can't help , but suggest you attack more early. Maybe you can get some technologies from AI by peace treaty.

Paddy · September 11, 2003, 07:10

leave their cities in ruins,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Dimension · September 11, 2003, 08:01

Well, he said he was new to the forum, not new to Civ III... So he could have won countless Emperor games... or he could be a complete noob who has no business playing Diety. Who knows?

I suppose more info would be nice...

Konquest02 · September 11, 2003, 09:00

Since you play mostly on huge maps, early warfare is something really hard to achieve, because the other civs are farther apart. I'm not a fan of huge maps (I've only played one...) but one thing you should almost always do is to extort techs before killing an enemy civ completely. You might want to take half or 3/4 of the civ, make peace for some techs and maybe some cities and then move on to another civ. 20 turns later, when your peace treaty has come to an end, come back to the first civ and repeat the process. If they have nothing good to give you when you want to negociate, wipe them out. Then move to the next opponent. Rinse and repeat.

You might want to give the Chinese a go. You'll have to fight more in the early medieval times, but a 3-move knight on a huge map is a great advantage.

If you want some detailed help, post some screenshots or, even better, a save so that people can look over.

--Kon--

Theseus · September 13, 2003, 16:23

Even on huge maps, given a Sipahi game-winning strategy, why would you not attack with Horsemen?

Additionally, albeit a paradoxically slow approach, Arty-softening followed by vet and elite Sipahi (and perhaps a few 3xSipahi nutcrackers) should be good even on Infantry.

Both should help in tech extortion, answering the original question... but I ain't a deity player either.

Osmaniac · September 15, 2003, 08:42

Well, Theseus..... it's a good question. And I guess that the answer is that I'm just a crteature of habbit :-)

Waiting to engage in war untill the beginning of Industrial Age, combined with a Sipahi triggered GA, has been a very succsesfull strategy so far...

But now that I'm having serious problems with the very agressive AI's, on diety, perhaps I'll give it a tryl!

As soon as I've given the chines a try (thanks for the hint Konquest) I'll post a detailed story on how I't went.
That way you can point out any mistakes I make along the way....

PS: It might take some days before that story will get posted, since I am currently playing a multiplayer game (with the Ottomans of course).

UnOrthOdOx · September 15, 2003, 09:28

I used to play on huge maps as well, only recently moving to standard because I grew tired of the length of the huge games.

Horses are really the way to go for early warfare on huge maps. A force of 15-20 should be able to net you a few cities of the nearest neighbor. I've gone as few as 6 for the initial attack if that neighbor was close enough. DO NOT kill that neighbor, though. Trade peace for whatever techs you need. The AI WILL outresearch you, you must pilfer it from them. Having a small neighbor you can easily knock around for the remainder of the game will allow you to return again and again to extort more techs as you need. Eliminate him when he has nothing left to offer.

Ideally, try to attack two neighbors early. Weakening two neighbors can only profit you. Your economy might not be exactly what you are used to, but your strength will be greater, therefore the AI may not be quite as aggressive. (some are just insane, period) Also, sticking to the horses, you can upgrade them to Sipahi. Setting research down some and building horses (or knights) for 40 turns while you research Mil Tradition at minimum will net you more sipahi quicker than manually building them.

But, from the sounds of things so far, early combat is the only thing I can see that will help out.

Hope this helps some.

Theseus · September 15, 2003, 21:26

I have yet to play as the Ottomans, and have only faced them a few times (scary, man, very scary).

It sounds like you have your "strengths" in hand (i.e., production focused on two key points of unit-level advantage, those being Sipahi and Tanks)... now fill out the rest of your game with other kinds of military (force-level) and non-military (trading? diplomacy?) advantages.

There is a thread I wrote a while ago that addresses this:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67506

Consider my comments (and the reactions from other players), on getting past what I then considered to be the first Strategic Advantage, Warfare.

First, there are other points in time where warfare can be extremely effective (e.g., and early Horse rush, in your case). Second, and third, fourth, etc., there are other 'levers' that control the game.

BUT, if I sound pedantic, let me say that I do NOT play deity, and you certainly sound like you know what you are doing!!

And, beyond that, you are clearly interested in making the necessary changes to your game to get even better, so:

Osmaniac · September 16, 2003, 17:23

I'm getting pretty tired of this!!!

I have now played 2 games with the Chinese. 1 game on Emperor, that went so terribly bad I wont even tell you about it. And 1 game on Monarch - which I've been trying to win today. Notice that I said "trying".

If I sound like I need to relaxe, and take a break from strategy gaming, please bare over with me. It's just that I'm convinced that I need to master this "early/ultra early warfare" much better than I do right now, if I ever want to win a diety game....

There are several problems in my ongoing game. Problems that I don't know if I will overcome (but I'm not giving up just yet). Here is a list of the most severe:

- Unhappy citizens - too much war all the time. As a result thereof my cities are starving much too often, and unfortunately I only have two diffrent luxuries in my land, and not enough money to trade more from other civ's.

- No infrastructure AT ALL!!! Only a couple of barracks and the occational temple to prevent my "border cities" from getting converted but culturally superior neigbourghs.

- Science. Don't even talk about it.

A short resume of the game itself will be posted as soon as I've played the game to an end. Right now I have some buisness to settle with those damn japanese.

PS: I enjoyed to read abot "The Seven Pillars og Wisdom". It gave me some thing to think about, and I will probably try to develop my skills in those where it is nessesary. Very good reading.

Rhothaerill · September 16, 2003, 17:31

Sounds like a plan Osmaniac.

BTW, in addition to Theseus' seven pillars I'd recommend reading as much as you can of the threads linked into Must read threads. It has a lot of great info, though some of it is out of date. Can't wait to see your game.

David Murray · September 16, 2003, 18:34

I would recommend the following programme as a fool-proof means of beating the computer at the highest level of difficulty:

1. Build lots of soldiers.
2. Build everything else.
3. Generate plenty of great leaders.
4. Kill your opponents.
5. Be quick!
6. No, quicker!!!

Unfortunately such auspicious situations arise sporadically at best ....

vmxa1 · September 16, 2003, 19:25

Osmaniac forgive me for not remembering anything about what may have been going on in this thread.
Did you have a reasonable start location? Are you using 1.27F? I have not seen much mentioned about this patch, but IMO it seems to have increased the AI a tad. I find I have to be more aggressive and use tighter spacing than before to get by.
Anyway, one thing that I know will work for China, is to make some ring cities and put up barracks in them. Crank out units and not worry about much other than a few workers. Get some archers and pay a visit to the near civ. If you are observant you will catch them running a setter + warrior team. Snatch it up and then hit the next city. You can take down a few units and maybe even another city. This will give you a vasal and insure they never are a factor. It also means some land that would have been settled with be open a lot longer. This gives you time to fill in. Now you can crank up the workers and settlers to get the extra land and I like to do it in a way to cut off any incursion. This means no settlers teams coming through. I would rather not have to kill them and get all the civs after me right away.
You will need to get in some key structures along the about now and keep those vet units coming.
This prevents them from trying to push you around and you do not have to switch gears if a war comes along.
Start making horses as soon as you can, you will be set for a massive Riders upgrade and kick off your next round of expansion. This will ideally come with a GA and a smack down of a rivial. If you do it right, you will be build something like Leos or something to get those double shields making the wonders faster.

vmxa1 · September 16, 2003, 19:27

BTW the way if that was too vague, take a look at some of the DAR's being posted in the AUSG101 game. There is bound to be a few super reports.

Killazer · September 18, 2003, 18:27

sipahi are way too strong imo. You can pretty much destroy everyone once you get them with the Ottomans.