Thread Tools
Old September 12, 2003, 17:41   #61
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
we should force them to work for less pay and more brutal working conditions in corporate factories producing Nike's for 5 cents a pair when they are resold for $150 a pair in the US.
You do realize that Nike factories don't hurt for workers. The reason being because they pay HIGHER wages than what the workers would normally get working on the farms. That's the way factories get their worker, by having higher wages than most other jobs.

--

Anyway, ending farm subsidies in the US and EU is a good idea, but easier said than done. I have a feeling Hell may freeze over first.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 17:56   #62
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You do realize that Nike factories don't hurt for workers.
You do realize that Nike workers have repeatedly tried to unionize for better working conditions.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 17:58   #63
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
How does that have any bearings on whether Nike hurts for workers or not?
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 18:05   #64
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
How does that have any bearings on whether Nike hurts workers or not?
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 19:18   #65
realpolitic
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
 
realpolitic's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


You mean 20% of the piped water supplies in the cities, I assume. A lot of water acquistion in Africa is the good ol' fashioned "grab a jug from the river" sort of thing, or small independent community or farm wells.

It's also a bit hard to avoid cholera when you have a water regime where your drinking water is your neighbor's laundry water and your other neighbors water buffalo just took a **** in it.

Privatized water systems can work very well, but "privatization" doesn't mean you have to convey resource ownership or abandon any form of price oversight or regulatory process, so any time you have a major abuse, one would have to ask who was paid off, and how were they making their cut under the old system?
When you can't afford the water, what choice do you have but "grab a jug".

The IMF does a great job of controlling resource managent, every Third World country they lend to ends up broke, as if by design, because if they didn't want it to happen so often, they would have modified the rules so some succeed. Then they take over this "incompetent" country's resources, as they are now doing in Africa, forcing governments to hand over fishing rights in their territorial waters.
realpolitic is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 19:24   #66
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Originally posted by realpolitic
When you can't afford the water, what choice do you have but "grab a jug".
You're missing the point. If the water isn't distributed or metered in the first place, then it doesn't matter if you can afford it or not, because carrying that jug from wherever the water is to wherever you need it is all the choice you have.

Quote:
The IMF does a great job of controlling resource managent, every Third World country they lend to ends up broke, as if by design, because if they didn't want it to happen so often, they would have modified the rules so some succeed. Then they take over this "incompetent" country's resources, as they are now doing in Africa, forcing governments to hand over fishing rights in their territorial waters.
And African (and third world in general) kleptothugocracy contributes at least as much to that problem as the IMF *******s. (I'm no particular fan of IMF)
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 22:30   #67
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
You guys are all missing the most important question brought up by this article: what the **** is wrong with Koreans? ****, cutting off your fingers when the Japanese PM visits Yasukuni Shrine is crazy enough, but stabbing yourself in the heart over agricultural policies is completely ****ing insane. What kind of culture pumps out morons like this?

On-topic, down with agricultural subsidies and tariffs. I'm sick of paying out the ass for rice just because Japanese farmers can't compete with the Thais.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 01:08   #68
Dracon II
King
 
Dracon II's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,533
I have a certain inner conflict going on with this whole deal. On the one hand I want to see US and EU subsidies and tariffs disappear so Australian produce can be competitive in their markets... and on the other hand I'd like to see Australian farmers drop kicked into the cities so they'll stop ****ing up what little there is of a major river basin in this country and so they'll stop the obscene levels of tree clearing in western Queensland.
Australia has a fragile enough ecosystem as it is.
So yeah... I don't mind buying European and American meat/wheat etc if it means the regeneration of rural Australia.
But yeah, undercutting 3rd world jobs and economies isn't something I'd like to see either, hence my my confusion.
__________________
"The great mass of the French nation is formed ... much as potatoes in a sack form a sack of potatoes" - Karl Marx, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

Msn: juebizi AT gmail DOT com
Dracon II is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 02:01   #69
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
Whatever the solution be, itd best be a slow one. Small scale Third world farming has been going on for hundreds of years. You can't expect to suddenly do what essentially amounts to firing the population.

In the US the turning point from small scale agriculture based to industrial based was during WWII, when labor demands and production demands got lots of workers off the farms and into factories or uniform.

Preceeding it was the Great Depression, a chain reaction which was caused in part by farmers not being paid enough due to oversupply. This oversupply began from farm subsidies started around the time of WWI
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 04:53   #70
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by Dracon II
I have a certain inner conflict going on with this whole deal. On the one hand I want to see US and EU subsidies and tariffs disappear so Australian produce can be competitive in their markets... and on the other hand I'd like to see Australian farmers drop kicked into the cities so they'll stop ****ing up what little there is of a major river basin in this country and so they'll stop the obscene levels of tree clearing in western Queensland.
We'd have to include rules against eco-dumping into WTO law to address that.

Btw, most damage by US and EU subsidies is not done to african subsistence farmers, but to export oriented farming. That's mostly specialised cultures for Africa, or things like Argentinian beef.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 05:06   #71
Alexander's Horse
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
Alexander's Horse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: In a tunnel under the DMZ
Posts: 12,273
so glad I didn't go to Cancun.
__________________
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer.

Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
Alexander's Horse is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 05:30   #72
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Lazy bastard.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 09:12   #73
C0ckney
King
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: All Connections That Have Been Made Are Now Dead
Posts: 2,981
the thing is, that i would be happy to get rid of tariffs for 3rd world produce, as long as the food produced their came up to UK and EU safety and enviromental standards
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
C0ckney is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 09:20   #74
Dracon II
King
 
Dracon II's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,533
the problem is that, historically, the northern industrialised countries had the benefit of centuries of protectionism with which to develop their economies independently. The third world, being (relatively recent) newcomers to the world economy don't have that benefit and had to enter fully unprotected because the northern states have changed the rules of the game post WW2
__________________
"The great mass of the French nation is formed ... much as potatoes in a sack form a sack of potatoes" - Karl Marx, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

Msn: juebizi AT gmail DOT com
Dracon II is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 09:25   #75
C0ckney
King
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: All Connections That Have Been Made Are Now Dead
Posts: 2,981
that's hardly our problem though is it.
__________________
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
C0ckney is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 11:09   #76
Alexander's Horse
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
Alexander's Horse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: In a tunnel under the DMZ
Posts: 12,273
I'm always amused by the protests by flat earthers at WTO meetings.

The WTO and its predecessor the GATT (that's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade for you kiddies) has probably done more to raise global living standards than any other international system over the last 50 years.

The main problem is only insiders understand its value.
__________________
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer.

Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
Alexander's Horse is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 12:18   #77
Dracon II
King
 
Dracon II's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,533
sub-saharan africa doesn't seem to be in a much better state than it was when the nthn industrialised states threw together GATT... and the "asian miracle" of Japan and S Korea was largely due to intensive state mobilisation and protection post WW2.
... but then, I'm drunk, only did a semester of economics and AH... it's a saturday night, you're australian, so hit the ****ing piss...
__________________
"The great mass of the French nation is formed ... much as potatoes in a sack form a sack of potatoes" - Karl Marx, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

Msn: juebizi AT gmail DOT com
Dracon II is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 12:21   #78
Dracon II
King
 
Dracon II's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,533
and AH... the androids song you quote in your sig is shithouse... that lead singer should've stayed in the superjesus... NOW HIT THE PISS!!! PORT JUST BEAT ESSENDON>>> YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
"The great mass of the French nation is formed ... much as potatoes in a sack form a sack of potatoes" - Karl Marx, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

Msn: juebizi AT gmail DOT com
Dracon II is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 12:44   #79
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 11:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 14:01   #80
realpolitic
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
 
realpolitic's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
And African (and third world in general) kleptothugocracy contributes at least as much to that problem as the IMF *******s. (I'm no particular fan of IMF)
I'm glad you acknowledge the IMFs role in f******* things up. If more people were honest that America has done its share of dastardly deeds, we might be able to actually create a better world. As for which is worse, they both need to go, so quantifying the problem is not critical.
realpolitic is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 14:17   #81
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I'm always amused by the protests by flat earthers at WTO meetings.

The WTO and its predecessor the GATT (that's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade for you kiddies) has probably done more to raise global living standards than any other international system over the last 50 years.

The main problem is only insiders understand its value.
I've heard this before but never a convincing argument as to why.

Remember, China and Taiwan both only joined the WTO a couple of years ago, yet both had phenomenal growth in living standards for decades before.

I can see WTO/GATT raising living standards in consumer economies, where stuff becomes cheaper, but I don't see how it benefits those who produce the goods. Yes, if you have a product to sell you can sell it cheaper... but good luck developing an industrial base while you're barraged by cheap imports. Thus only low cost labor intensive industries develop.
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 15:00   #82
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
"Thus only low cost labor intensive industries develop."

When people say stuff like this it makes you not bother replying with a decent post..

Solly is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 15:19   #83
Ted Striker
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ted Striker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
This isn't a "EU and USA bullying all the little guys out of business."

This is a "large corporations put small farmers out of business." This happens all over the world, and even in the US and the EU.

You guys don't remember that whole, "Farm Aid," thing during the 80s?
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln

Mis Novias
Ted Striker is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 15:21   #84
JohnT
lifer
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
JohnT's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 4,264
I do. Despite the dire warnings about the Impending Fall of the Republic, we made it through the 80s small farm crisis OK.
JohnT is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 15:22   #85
Solly
Emperor
 
Solly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,515
Make me some tea, not war!
Solly is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 16:01   #86
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
That's because by the 80s small farmers made up a very small percent of the US population. That is not the case in parts of the world right now.
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 16:05   #87
Ted Striker
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ted Striker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
Quote:
Based on 1997 census results, Alabama had the highest percentage of family farms, at 91%, followed by the United States (86%) and the Southeast (79%). The Southeast, meanwhile, had the highest percentage of farms as corporations (11%), followed by the United States (4%), and Alabama (1%).
According to this Auburn study, family farmers still make up the bulk of US farmers:

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/aaes/commun...tructural.html
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln

Mis Novias
Ted Striker is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 16:08   #88
Ted Striker
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ted Striker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Batallón de San Patricio, United States of America
Posts: 3,696
More from the study:

1) in the aggregate, the number of farms in the United States will probably continue to decline,

2) as the number of farms declines, more farm operators will seek employment outside farming

3) the family farm will continue to be the major production unit in U.S. agriculture.

okay so maybe it's premature to consider this as a big corporations vs. little guy thing.

However, it seems farmers all over the world continue to lose jobs.
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln

Mis Novias
Ted Striker is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 16:08   #89
:) Smiley
Scenario League / Civ2-Creation
Emperor
 
:) Smiley's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: hippieland, CA
Posts: 3,781
They may still make up the bulk of US farmers.... but farmers make up very little of the US population.

I would rather see numbers on the absolute number of family farms pre and post 1980s
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
:) Smiley is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 17:09   #90
realpolitic
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
 
realpolitic's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
stabbing yourself in the heart over agricultural policies is completely ****ing insane. What kind of culture pumps out morons like this?
It is insane in the developed world, but in the Third World, agroculture is the only way some people can survive. To sacrifice your life so others will live is heroic, whether it's the NYFD or someone protesting deadly policies.
realpolitic is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:39.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team