On possible Governments - Page 2

EmuGod · September 29, 2003, 17:29

1. The transports, however, won't serve any use other than transporting hte immigrants so the immigration minister can be in charge of those as well.

2. The Prime Minister would make sure things are running smoothly, would outline his objectives during the war and would appoint the Chief of Staff and such.

3. The Defence Minister would be in charge of assigning what troops are built in what cities.

4. The Economic Minister would be in charge of assigning what non-military improvements are built in what cities.

5. The President would be a third moderator for the forum, would substitute for any missing players and coordinate efforts between the various departments. The President could also "make laws" so to speak if different jobs apparently overlapped.

6. The Chief of Staff basically creates the specific battle plan to be used with the Defence Minister, Prime Minister and President and then appoints the front commanders (to be approved by the Prime Minsiter), and divides the military resources to each front. He also reports to the knesset of the current military situation.

Does that answer all your question, PinkyGen?

PinkyGen · September 29, 2003, 18:11

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
1. The transports, however, won't serve any use other than transporting hte immigrants so the immigration minister can be in charge of those as well.

As I said, I don't think we need one. I think a front commander can handle it, and then those transports can either be disbanded or used for amphibious attack in the enemy's rear. (Probably disband them).

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
2. The Prime Minister would make sure things are running smoothly, would outline his objectives during the war and would appoint the Chief of Staff and such.

Okay.

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
3. The Defence Minister would be in charge of assigning what troops are built in what cities.

Alright, your concept of the Defense Minister is similiar to my infrastructure minister. The thing is, while most of what we build will be military units, not everything will be. The Defense Minister should be in charge of all production, not just military production.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
4. The Economic Minister would be in charge of assigning what non-military improvements are built in what cities.

I would rather all production assigned to Defense or Infrastructure Minister (whatever he is called.) It's more effecient, as otherwise a higher authority, the PM, would have to designate each turn what cities build units and what builds infrastructre.
Econ Minister should be in charge of choosing what to rush buy, and setting taxes, science, and luxury.

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
5. The President would be a third moderator for the forum, would substitute for any missing players and coordinate efforts between the various departments. The President could also "make laws" so to speak if different jobs apparently overlapped.

Fine with moderator and substituting. Little hesitant on "make laws." Perhaps this should be left for the PM. And if a minister feels his duties are being sent elsewhere, he can always leave in an attempt to bring down the government. But I don't feel strongly one way or another on this.

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
6. The Chief of Staff basically creates the specific battle plan to be used with the Defence Minister, Prime Minister and President and then appoints the front commanders (to be approved by the Prime Minsiter), and divides the military resources to each front. He also reports to the knesset of the current military situation.

As I said, I would have an Infrastructure rather than a Defense Minister, because otherwise two ministries are competing over building.
Also, it seems to me the President should not have an inherent right to be in the battle planning, though I guess if the Chief of Staff wants, he can plan with anyone he wants, so long as the PM approves of him.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
Does that answer all your question, PinkyGen?

Mostly.

Some stuff, like who the Chief of Staff talks to or what specific powers the President has is small stuff, and I won't argue with that if it slows this down too much.

However, I feel it would be a dreadful mistake for both the Defense Minister and the Econ Minister to have control over production. It is much more effecient to have one minister in charge of production, civillian and military. Otherwise, because of changing conditions, the PM will have constantly step in to assign cities to Defense versus Econ Ministers. In Red Front, cities constantly changed between building barracks, troops, factories and steel mills, and wonders.

Additional:
1. Defense or Infrastructure Minister (depending on his name) should have control of all engineer style units that are not assigned to a front.

EmuGod · September 29, 2003, 20:04

I agree. The Finance Minister (I'm renaming the economic minister) can be in charge of funding money to taxes, science and luxuries. To be honest, I forgot about those.

PinkyGen · September 29, 2003, 22:44

K.
What about the other suggestions? I only really care if we need immigration minister or not, the rest are minor.

EmuGod · September 30, 2003, 17:25

I say we go for having one. The front commanders will have enough to do once the enemy attacks without having to worry about loading up the transports with the troops. If we want to transfer ships to front commanders for amphibious assaults, the Chief of Staff can do so.

Panag · September 30, 2003, 17:32

Quote:

Originally posted by PinkyGen
K.
What about the other suggestions? I only really care if we need immigration minister or not, the rest are minor.

hi ,

well in the real Israel we have the min of absorbation and immigration since day one , .......

have a nice day

yaroslav · September 30, 2003, 17:47

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod
I say we go for having one. The front commanders will have enough to do once the enemy attacks without having to worry about loading up the transports with the troops. If we want to transfer ships to front commanders for amphibious assaults, the Chief of Staff can do so.

Well, that is a minor point we can disscuss in the Knesset

Do you all agree with the EmuGod's Knesset suggestion? The only thing I don' t understand yet is how to divide the seat in the knesset. Let's supose that two parties got 35% and a third party got 30% of votes... And let's suppose 5 knesset seat (I prefer 5 over 7)

A-> 5*35% = 1,75
B-> 5*35% = 1,75
C-> 5*30% = 1,5

If all seat are rounded down

A-> 1
B-> 1
C-> 1

2 seats free (plus A with the same seats than C, even when votes(A)>votes(C))

If all seat are rounded up

A-> 2
B-> 2
C-> 2

6 seats!

If is rounded normally (>=0.5 ->1, <0.5->0), the same problem...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Emugod suggested me to round the percentages to the nearest 20-multiple percent. That seems to work, and it is equivalent to this rounding algorithm (<=0.5->0,>0.5->1)...

What do you think=

With our Example

A-> 40% -> 2 seats
B-> 40% -> 2 seats
C-> 20% -> 1 seats

But there are other examples where it didn't work... Do you know what rule is used in your country? Any ideas?

Panag · September 30, 2003, 17:59

Quote:

Originally posted by yaroslav

Well, that is a minor point we can disscuss in the Knesset

Do you all agree with the EmuGod's Knesset suggestion?

hi ,

yes

have a nice day

panag aiming at people who say no , ......

yaroslav · September 30, 2003, 18:09

Dear panag, there is also a problem with the rounding of the knesset - please take a look to my edited post and tell us your opinion

Panag · September 30, 2003, 18:21

Quote:

Originally posted by yaroslav
Dear panag, there is also a problem with the rounding of the knesset - please take a look to my edited post and tell us your opinion

hi ,

looks good but huh , when we expand in the future its bound to give some problems , .......

, will deal with this on wednesday

in the mean time take a look at this >>> www.knesset.gov.il - www.us-israel.org/jsource/Politics/mktoc.html - www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset - www.knesset.co.il - www.science.co.il/Knesset.asp - www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00jq0 - www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/is02000_.html -

have a nice day

yaroslav · September 30, 2003, 19:09

Ok, I've read the Knesset's Laws (thank you for the links, panag), and the system is good. The total amount of votes is divided between the number of seats. Let's say that there are 20 votes and 5 seats, so we have 4 votes per seat.

And let's say that we have three parties:

A-> 8 votes
B-> 7 votes
C-> 5 votes

First of all, only entire seats are given to the parties: A will get 2 seat, B and C one seat. After that, the excess seat is given to B, because B got more votes than C. If there will be more than one free seat, the first will go for B, the next for C, etc. and so on.

I like that system, and I think it is a good system

PinkyGen · September 30, 2003, 22:19

Sounds good.
1. How long are terms, assuming no new elections need to be called if a government falls?
HTower suggested every 6 months(game months), which seems in the right area, if a little short. However, 12 months is just too long, and choosing a number like 7 or 8 is just confusing.

2. How is President selected again? I would assume it would be a popular support poll, and not selected out of the knesset.

3. I suppose a PM could always decide whether to have an Immigration Minister or not, or have someone else double up on the job.

4. This game really needs to get started. I suggest we have a quick poll approving this constitution, and then immediately begin election proceedings for the initial knesset!

conmcb25 · September 30, 2003, 22:39

Quote:

Originally posted by PinkyGen
Sounds good.
1. How long are terms, assuming no new elections need to be called if a government falls?
HTower suggested every 6 months(game months), which seems in the right area, if a little short. However, 12 months is just too long, and choosing a number like 7 or 8 is just confusing.

2. How is President selected again? I would assume it would be a popular support poll, and not selected out of the knesset.

3. I suppose a PM could always decide whether to have an Immigration Minister or not, or have someone else double up on the job.

4. This game really needs to get started. I suggest we have a quick poll approving this constitution, and then immediately begin election proceedings for the initial knesset!

Ditto on #4.

I say six months in game terms. Twelve months was too long at Red Front.

EmuGod · October 1, 2003, 21:05

Quote:

Originally posted by PinkyGen
Sounds good.
1. How long are terms, assuming no new elections need to be called if a government falls?
HTower suggested every 6 months(game months), which seems in the right area, if a little short. However, 12 months is just too long, and choosing a number like 7 or 8 is just confusing.

2. How is President selected again? I would assume it would be a popular support poll, and not selected out of the knesset.

3. I suppose a PM could always decide whether to have an Immigration Minister or not, or have someone else double up on the job.

4. This game really needs to get started. I suggest we have a quick poll approving this constitution, and then immediately begin election proceedings for the initial knesset!

1. Each term would be 6 months beginning in May 1948 except for this first which would be 12 months (doesn't make sense to change governments before a country even exists).

2. The President would be elected by the knesset. Any player is eligible to be President (as long as they are not in the IDF).

3. Ok.

4. Here's a simple solution to the constitution problem: Israel doesn't have one in reality because no one could agree on one so we don't need one.

PinkyGen · October 1, 2003, 23:46

Quote:

Originally posted by EmuGod

1. Each term would be 6 months beginning in May 1948 except for this first which would be 12 months (doesn't make sense to change governments before a country even exists).

2. The President would be elected by the knesset. Any player is eligible to be President (as long as they are not in the IDF).

3. Ok.

4. Here's a simple solution to the constitution problem: Israel doesn't have one in reality because no one could agree on one so we don't need one.

1. I think this is a bad idea. While there is no country per se, there is a provisional government. And while theoretically it's probably odd, in real life I don't think we should have a 12 month turn, this will stifle the game.

2. I know this is how it is done in real Israel. However, there the President is more of a figurehead. I thought the point of having a President here was to have somebody beyond "politics." If he is just chosen by the knesset, then he is just merely another post in the governing coalition.

3. cool.

4. But Israel does have basic laws, and we need some framework. On the other hand, we need this quickly. However, points 1 and 2 can be debated as the election proceeds and the government forms. I'm going to do some homework, then post a summary of the basic laws, version 1 (excluding things that can be waited on). If no immediate objections, I will then post a poll.

If anyone asks for a change in the basic laws during the poll, I will scratch my head and wonder why you ignored this thread, since it has basically now become me and Emu discussing governments with others like comncb25 and panag giving their thoughts.

It will be an up and down vote, though obviously questions about more clarity on a point can be answered.

I think 2-3 days is long enough for the basic laws vote, and then an election thread for the parties would begin.

PinkyGen · October 2, 2003, 00:31

Basic Laws: Part 1. What is needed for immediate elections. This will be posted and voted upon.

I. Government Structure.

Minister Posts:
1. Prime Minister:
2. President:
3. Defence Minister
4. Immigration Minister
5. Economic Minister

1. Prime Minister: Elected by the knesset. Head of the Government, overall in charge of making sure everything works smoothly. In charge of setting general goals of the Government, and the overall strategic course of the war. PM's Government collapses if 3 out of 5 knesset members have a vote of no confidence in the Government, and new elections are then held.

2. President: Either elected out of the Knesset or by possible vote, will be determined in Basic Laws II.

The President would be a third moderator for the forum, would substitute for any missing players and coordinate efforts between the various departments. The President could also "make laws" so to speak if different jobs apparently overlapped, though it is ultimately the PM's responsibility to adjugate disputes between Ministers

3. Defense-Interior Minister: In charge of all construction, unit or infrastructure in all cities. Responsible for deciding where immigrants are settled (disbanded), in consultation with Immigrant Minister if that post is filled. Selected by the PM.

4. Economic Minister: In charge of tax, luxury, and science rates. Approves all rush buy requests from the Defense Minister.

5. Immigrant Minister: In charge of moving the immigrants to the newly established state. The PM has the authority if need be to delegate this post to another minister, or to assign immigrants to the direct control of Front Commanders

It is preferable that minister's first be selected from the knesset out of the members in the Governing Coalition. There can be more Minister positions than the possible knesset pool can fill, especially if the coalition is small, so Minister's can be selected from the general populace.

However, the Prime Minister must be selected from the Knesset.
II. Military Structure

IDF
Generals only command troops, no cities and no zion workers unless specially worked out with the Defense Minister. Cannot be in the Knesset

Positions:
1. Chief of Staff:
2. Northern Front - Golan Heights and Lebanon
3. Judean Front - Haifa to Netanyah to Jerico to Tiberius
4. Jerusalem\South East Front - West Jerusalem to Eilat (stretching along the border with Jordan)
5. Gaza Front - Ashdod, Gevaram, Tekumah

1. Chief of Staff: Selected by the PM. Appoints the Front Commanders. In charge of the management of the army, and the assignement of troops. In charge of moving troops not yet assigned to a front. In charge of actual war operations. Colloborates the PM in setting war aims. Designates Fronts, and there area of responsibility. (so the above 4 fronts are only suggestions, and the Chief of Staff may change these.)

2. Front Commanders: Appointed by Chief of Staff. In charge of all troops in their area of responsibility assigned by Chief of Staff.

Second part coming up.

PinkyGen · October 2, 2003, 00:46

Basic Laws I (continued)...

III. The Knesset:

A. Elections:
The knesset is organized by party, and consists of a total of five seats. Parties are elected to the knesset, not individuals. It is the party that wins seats.
When a party wins a seat, the actual knesset seat is filled by whomever is number one on the Party List during that election. If a party wins a second seat, then that seat is filled by the number 2 on the party list. And so on.
Party Lists must be finalized before elections begin! (no altering the list 1 hour before the polls close).

B. The election math. (copied straight from Emu, taken from the real Israeli Knesset site, and un-edited because I don't do math at 12:45 in the morning)

Ok, I've read the Knesset's Laws (thank you for the links, panag), and the system is good. The total amount of votes is divided between the number of seats. Let's say that there are 20 votes and 5 seats, so we have 4 votes per seat.

And let's say that we have three parties:

A-> 8 votes
B-> 7 votes
C-> 5 votes

First of all, only entire seats are given to the parties: A will get 2 seat, B and C one seat. After that, the excess seat is given to B, because B got more votes than C. If there will be more than one free seat, the first will go for B, the next for C, etc. and so on.

C. If need be, the Knesset can be expanded, but this would require a referendum.

IV: Reservations.

Nothing in this text should be construed as to prevent the formation of more posts. For example, even though Deputy Ministers are not mentioned, they would be allowed since this doesn't ban it. Furthermore, other Minister's, such as Mossad or Propoganda (newspapers) can be set up if the government so wishes.
This is a Democracy Game, and we want EVERYONE who wants a position to be able to get one.

H Tower · October 2, 2003, 01:56

Excellent work

Even if you are the leader of the violence party

PinkyGen · October 2, 2003, 09:47

Thank you for the compliment.

Even if it does come from a foolish peacenik.

conmcb25 · October 2, 2003, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by PinkyGen
Basic Laws I (continued)...

Nothing in this text should be construed as to prevent the formation of more posts. For example, even though Deputy Ministers are not mentioned, they would be allowed since this doesn't ban it. Furthermore, other Minister's, such as Mossad or Propoganda (newspapers) can be set up if the government so wishes.
This is a Democracy Game, and we want EVERYONE to have a position.

Pinky this is good the whole thing but I want to make a point about this last paragraph.

We want everyone who WANTS a position to have one.

Maybe El or I would be happy to be party hacks and just post as opposed to actually doing something. The folks we have in the Demo game should have that option. Im sure this was your intent, I just wanted to clarify.

Great Work!

Arthedain · October 2, 2003, 10:42

you have all done great work with this guys

can't wait to get this DG started..

PinkyGen · October 2, 2003, 12:29

Being a party hack is still having a position.
Nevertheless, I will edit it.

Rasputin · February 11, 2004, 13:29

all very well thought out ideas.... glad so much water has gone under the bridge before i got here...