Michael Meacher: This war on terrorism is bogus

[Berzerker]

It would be good for NK, Iran, and countries like Iraq to intimidate other nations and threaten North America (and Europe) with ICBMs?

Not good for us given how our foreign policy seems to based on the notion that the world is our playground, but if I was worried about the US invading my country, nukes would be a nice deterrant. But how would these countries intimidate anyone when the result of any attack would be total annhilation? That's the key, we want to intimidate countries without nukes being used on us...

Why the mention of an Enron power plant in India?

Seems relevant if Enron's plant in India was depending on a future pipeline thru Afghanistan that the Taliban was reconsidering.

If you seriously believe that the FBI, NSA, and CIA in conjunction with the White House all let 9/11 happen, then you too need a tin foil hat.

If this theory is somewhat accurate, they didn't have to know the extent of the attack, just that a serious attack would provide the catalyst for neo-con goals in the ME. And yes, I do believe there are people in government figuring out ways to control large parts of the globe, especially energy deposits. The US has spent more than a century intervening abroad militarily at the behest of corporations, so why would it stop now that the Cold War is over and the US is the top dog?

[notyoueither]

Not good for us given how our foreign policy seems to based on the notion that the world is our playground, but if I was worried about the US invading my country, nukes would be a nice deterrant. But how would these countries intimidate anyone when the result of any attack would be total annhilation? That's the key, we want to intimidate countries without nukes being used on us...

Problem is that guys, like Kim, are threatening other countries in the area. Then they want to threaten North America and Europe if they can. Yes, Virginia, the US is not the only possible target.

Oh, and btw, last I checked guys like Kim, and several other dictators like him, did not have the same kind of restraints that the leaders of the US, the USSR, and the PRC have and had. MAD is a good thing, when the leadership of the nations with the bomb can be relied on to behave responsibly. For how much longer can we rely on the dictator de jour to behave responsibly?

Seems relevant if Enron's plant in India was depending on a future pipeline thru Afghanistan that the Taliban was reconsidering.

Pfft. It's a red herring. No New American Hegemony peice would be complete without mentioning Enron, no matter how nebulous the link.

If this theory is somewhat accurate, they didn't have to know the extent of the attack, just that a serious attack would provide the catalyst for neo-con goals in the ME. And yes, I do believe there are people in government figuring out ways to control large parts of the globe, especially energy deposits. The US has spent more than a century intervening abroad militarily at the behest of corporations, so why would it stop now that the Cold War is over and the US is the top dog?

And exactly how many people would have to be in the loop, and have to be relied on to keep quiet?

Shi... stuff like that article, are just that. A crock of ****. There is no way in hell such a thing could ever be kept quiet.

[Berzerker]

Problem is that guys, like Kim, are threatening other countries in the area. Then they want to threaten North America and Europe if they can. Yes, Virginia, the US is not the only possible target.

My suggestion? Ignore him! He's doing it for 2 reasons - fear of a US invasion and freebies.

Oh, and btw, last I checked guys like Kim, and several other dictators like him, did not have the same kind of restraints that the leaders of the US, the USSR, and the PRC have and had. MAD is a good thing, when the leadership of the nations with the bomb can be relied on to behave responsibly. For how much longer can we rely on the dictator de jour to behave responsibly?

As long as he and others in his country want to stay alive and in power. That's the problem with Iraq, Saddam wouldn't try to attack us because he wanted to stay alive and in power.

Pfft. It's a red herring. No New American Hegemony peice would be complete without mentioning Enron, no matter how nebulous the link.

Yes, I had the impression Enron was mentioned to inflame passions, but I still think it has relevance. The US has long used it's military muscle to benefit US corporations.

And exactly how many people would have to be in the loop, and have to be relied on to keep quiet?

Shi... stuff like that article, are just that. A crock of ****. There is no way in hell such a thing could ever be kept quiet.

How do you explain Richard Butler's pre- 9/11 comment about a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs for the Taliban? If this theory is more or less accurate, I'm sure we'll see more evidence. But I won't dismiss it out of hand... I don't trust the 2 parties and I know there are globalists in both who seek even more control over the world and if people need to be sacrificed, oh well...

[notyoueither]

So, you largely believe the article posted at the beginning of this thread?

[Berzerker]

Don't know, I can't verify or negate what it says. But I do find Richard Butler's comment quite perplexing.

[notyoueither]

Butler's comment?

The book says that the negotiators said to the Taliban, you have a choice. You have a carpet of gold, meaning an oil deal, or a carpet of bombs. That's what the book alleges.

Yes, it is interesting when people report him quoting as him saying...

Try reading the link.

[Berzerker]

Hmm...

Richard Butler, in an interview on CNN said before 9/11 that the US would offer the Taliban "a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs"
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/08/ltm.05.html
That's a pretty provokative statement almost like they wanted to "shape events" into a new Pearl Harbor. That's bound to anger any country, ESPECIALLY the Taliban.

Tsk tsk...realpolitic...Butler said the book alleges this, not that Butler said it. Thx NYE, I read only what realpolitic posted, not the actual link.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

It's hard to take plans for global domination seriously when they're linked to people who couldn't find their arse with both hands.

"Dan Quayle- Global Mastemind".

[Kropotkin]

Is this something new? I thin we all have heard it before.

[BeBro]

Michael Meacher? Isn´t this the guy from the "Helloween" movies?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
It's hard to take plans for global domination seriously when they're linked to people who couldn't find their arse with both hands.

"Dan Quayle- Global Mastemind".

Ahh, but that is what they want you to think.....

[Urban Ranger]

I have always wondered where did Duyba pull his "Axis of Evil" from. Most likely his rectum.

[Drake Tungsten]

I have always wondered where did Duyba pull his "Axis of Evil" from. Most likely his rectum.

I agree. How can any list of "evil" countries be taken seriously without China in the number one position?

[Sava]

oedo... anything is NOT possible. The Bush admin, despite doing a lot and using 9-11 as an excuse, has not been given a blank check, nor a completely go-ahead. There are rules in this country. It's all about politics. I don't feel the need to dissect this dope's points. He's on the lunatic left. You need to stop paying attention to fear mongers and start looking at the facts. You should read, "Bush at War" by Bob Woodward. It's an excellent look at the Bush admin and what REALLY goes on. Do you really think Bush and company get together and form some grand conspiracy? If so, seek help. Sure the Bush admin has contacts with those Neo-Con think tanks, and some of the people in the admin buy into those ideologies... but many don't. The State Department personel are not Neo-Cons... D1ck Armitage, Powell, etc...

And the one thing about conspiracies... the more people involved in them, the less likely they are to remain a secret. I highly doubt that there are such conspracies because they would require EVERYONE to follow them. There are leaks in the admin, and not everyone buys into Neo-Con ideals. Bush may be an evil person, or a misguided dope who's doing a terrible job; but he's not the mastermind of some grand conspiracy.

[BeBro]

Let´s build the conspiracy theory of everything!

[BeBro]

Oh, and to post something serious - I pretty much agree with Sava´s last post. It is all fine to criticize Bush (as it is fine to criticiise anyone else), but a lot of people seem to believe more than to think. Those conspiracy theories seem to have pseudo-religious meaning for many - they believe this, because it fits into their world-view. But this is the easy (and wrong) way out....

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by notyoueither
So, you largely believe the article posted at the beginning of this thread?

It's the conservatives who have a PROVEN track record of lying about: WMDs, the Urainium forgeries, etc. And their lies go back much longer than that, the President's Uncle, Neil Bush was involved in the S&L scandal.

NPAC is not a new document made up by the Guardian, how do you think so many people at the OTF have become intimatately aware of its contents so fast?

[notyoueither]

I'm not sure, but I've seen you posting drivel about someone 'saying' something when he was only discussing what someone else said.

[Agathon]

Dismissing it as a "conspiracy theory" is a bit silly.

His basic thesis is a good one: the PNAC documents provide a much better explanation of why the US has acted the way it has than the "War on Terror". Anyone who knows anything at all knows with absolute certitude that Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11 and is diametrically opposed to the radical Islamist ideal.

I'm not quite sure I know why the US has acted the way it has, to me it just doesn't make sense.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I have always wondered where did Duyba pull his "Axis of Evil" from. Most likely his rectum.

I think he pulled it out of the rectums of Wolfie and Cheney.

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm not sure, but I've seen you posting drivel about someone 'saying' something when he was only discussing what someone else said.

That someone was the chief weapons inspector for the UN. I guess what makes it drivel to you is that it was said by someone outside the Bush Administration.

For those of you who think this is the ranting of a leftwing wacko, look at the bottom of the article, Micheal Meacher was one of Blair's ministers.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by realpolitic
For those of you who think this is the ranting of a leftwing wacko, look at the bottom of the article, Micheal Meacher was one of Blair's ministers.

You say that like it proves them wrong.

[Berzerker]

realpolitic -

That someone was the chief weapons inspector for the UN. I guess what makes it drivel to you is that it was said by someone outside the Bush Administration

But according to what you posted on the first page, it was Butler who said the US will "offer a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs" and that he said it before 9/11. The link shows Butler only said that the book alleges that US representatives said this to the Taliban. That's quite an important difference...

[notyoueither]

Did someone ask for a refutation?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...038215,00.html

David Aaronovitch

Has Meacher completely lost the plot?

Tuesday September 9, 2003
The Guardian

"In a startling allegation," the Hindu of India told its many readers last Saturday, "a former British minister has said the US may have deliberately allowed the events of September 11 2001, so that it could have a pretext to attack Afghanistan and Iraq." The wires ran the story from Wellington to San Francisco. It was an "incredible piece", one happy blogger chortled, showing that conspiracy theories have "finally hit (the) mainstream media". In this case the "mainstream" was us here at the Guardian.
Made into a rough chronology of cause and effect, the argument from Michael Meacher, the minister in question, went like this:

1. The Americans (and the Brits, but not, it seems, the French or the Germans) are running out of oil and gas, and the Muslims have got lots.

2. A few years back, some neocons devised a plan to get their hands on the oil, etc, so as to be able to dominate the world.

3. Trouble was, they couldn't go ahead with the plan unless public opinion was mobilised, as it was at Pearl Harbor in 1941. Which, by the way, President Roosevelt knew all about, but decided not to stop so that he could have a war.

4. Subsequently, the Bush administration and its agencies did "little or nothing" to stop the plotters of 9/11 and - when their operation was under way - little or nothing to bring it to a halt.

5. After September 11, the Bushites forgot all about terrorism and Bin Laden and concentrated on invading places that had oil and gas.

6. So, "the 'global war on terrorism' has the hallmarks of a political myth propagated to pave the way for... the US goal of world hegemony, built around securing by force command over the oil supplies."

The oil and PNAC arguments in points one and two are so complex and recondite that I'll begin at about point three, in which the US may create a pretext for attacks. "There is a possible precedent for this," says Meacher, "The US national archives reveal that President Roosevelt used exactly this approach in relation to Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941. Some advance warning of the attacks was received, but the information never reached the US fleet."

US national archives "reveal" no such thing. Or rather, they reveal it to a select few people, but not to most historians. This may not be the place to talk about Japanese signals received in 1940/41 and not successfully decoded until 1946, but to state as fact that the President of the US (and former under-secretary of the navy) connived at an attack that sunk a large proportion of his own Pacific fleet, is to go well beyond the known facts. Which is where M cheerfully went.

However, armed with this non-precedent, Meacher then argues that "the 9/11 attacks allowed the US to press the 'go' button... which it would otherwise have been politically impossible to implement".

But how to organise the necessary casus belli? "First, it is clear the US authorities did little or nothing to pre-empt the events of 9/11." And then, says Meacher, it was "astonishing that there was such slow reaction on September 11 itself". He goes on, "The first hijacking was suspected at not later than 8.20am, and the last hijacked aircraft crashed in Pennsylvania at 10.06am. Not a single fighter plane was scrambled to investigate from the US Andrews airforce base, just 10 miles from Washington DC, until after the third plane had hit the Pentagon at 9.38 am. Why not?"

Unfortunately, this is all rubbish. Six minutes after the notification of the first hijacking, at 8.44am, fighters were ordered to be scrambled from Otis Base in Massachusetts. Two minutes later the first plane struck the World Trade Center. Another 16 minutes on, the second plane struck. Twenty-three minutes on and the third plane was notified as having been hijacked en route from Dulles airport. Another two minutes later fighters were scrambled from Langley (not Andrews), but arrived over Washington two minutes after Flight 77 struck the Pentagon. Nor was this lateness unprecedented. A year earlier F16s had failed to intercept a Cessna light aircraft that deviated from course, and buzzed the White House.

But watch Meacher build. It's a classic of its kind. "Was this inaction," he asks, "simply the result of key people disregarding, or being ignorant of, the evidence? Or could US air security operations have been deliberately stood down on September 11? If so, why, and on whose authority?"

This is conspiracy 101. Say something is a fact which isn't. Then ask questions, rising up through incompetence, gradually to mal-intention, and then - abruptly - demand who might be behind it all. Cui Bono, my dear friends?

After the hijackings came the war that wasn't. "No serious attempt," charged Meacher, "has ever been made to catch Bin Laden." And he adds that, "The US chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Myers, went so far as to say that 'the goal has never been to get Bin Laden' ".

The following is from the press conference where that quote originated. General Myers is taxed with the embarrassing fact of Bin Laden being still extant. He makes Meacher's quote and then continues:

"Obviously that (the capture of BL) is desirable... the fact that we've been able to disrupt operations, get a lot of the people just under him and maybe just a little bit further down, has had some impact on their operations... So we're going to keep the hunt on. Finding one person, as we've talked about before, is a very difficult prospect, but we will keep trying."

Do you think that Meacher gives an adequate account of Myers' words here? And don't you seem to recall, over the past two years, an awful lot of chasing around the Tora Bora and through Pakistan, shoot-outs in various cities and captures of senior Bin Laden aides? Or is that all just some cunning smokescreen, to obscure the serious folk getting on with laying pipelines?

Questioned on ITN on Saturday Meacher denied that he was a conspiracy theorist, citing the "I'm only raising questions" defence. His information, he said, "comes from the collection of data that I have been doing meticulously. It comes from websites across the world."

The ones that suggest that the American agencies wanted an attack, so deliberately ignored the activities of terrorists in the US, and stood down their own air defences, in order to allow the worst terrorist atrocity in history to take place - all to secure oil and gas supplies. This act of treachery was accomplished with the complicity of military people, politicians and civil servants of all ranks, some of whose family members were on the planes and in the buildings.

I grant that Iraq has made us all a little mad. On either side of the argument many of us struggle to maintain our composure. Even so, I do not know what is more depressing: that a former long-serving minister should repeat this bizarre nonsense without checking it; that, yesterday, twice as many readers should be published supporting this garbage as those criticising it; or that one letter should claim that Meacher has simply said what "many have always known". Ugh! To give credibility to this stuff is bad enough, to "know" it is truly scary.

Secure your tin foil hats. You have incoming!

[Berzerker]

Unfortunately, this is all rubbish. Six minutes after the notification of the first hijacking, at 8.44am, fighters were ordered to be scrambled from Otis Base in Massachusetts. Two minutes later the first plane struck the World Trade Center. Another 16 minutes on, the second plane struck. Twenty-three minutes on and the third plane was notified as having been hijacked en route from Dulles airport. Another two minutes later fighters were scrambled from Langley (not Andrews), but arrived over Washington two minutes after Flight 77 struck the Pentagon.

Nails in the coffin? I think so...

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Nails in the coffin? I think so...

I'd say questions remain. I want the trust to come out and I thank you for debating me and making sense of this mess, there is some evidence pro and con, NYE's explaination might or might not be a cover story, I'm sure one would be inevitable, but if they couldn't reach the third plane with fighters, how about missiles?

[realpolitic]

PS I hope you are right about this, NYE.

[Arrian]

Thanks for posting that, NYE. Bravo, David Aaronovitch

Oh, and I must say, kudos to the Guardian for publishing Mr. Aaronovitch's article. Credit where credit is due.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie


Don't take the word "everything" so literally. What I meant was that it became so non-PC to raise critics against the US government. Perhaps it's finally beginning to go back to normal mode now. At least David Letterman has returned to his normal President jokes. How many Senate votes turned against the cabinet in the fall of 2001?

well what was proposed in fall of 2001. I dont think Bush lost any votes on foreign policy - hardly surprising. He won on the Patriot Act, but it was debated vigourosly then and since. ISTR that the Senate and House took along time to pass the govt appropriations - certainly evidence that the admin wasnt getting its way on everything. Certainly things went no more smoothly on appropriations, judicial nominations, or other strictly domestic legislation then they did BEFORE 9/11. One needs to recall that the Congress passed Bushs tax cuts BEFORE 9/11.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by realpolitic


I'd say questions remain. I want the trust to come out and I thank you for debating me and making sense of this mess, there is some evidence pro and con, NYE's explaination might or might not be a cover story, I'm sure one would be inevitable, but if they couldn't reach the third plane with fighters, how about missiles?

AFAIK their havent been Anti-air missiles around DC in years. In fact i think some of our local parks are on the sites of old Nike missile bases. Basically when the cold war nuclear rivarly went from bombers to ICBMS the Nikes were considered obsolete, and have never been replaced.