Secret Project Problems!!!

Maniac · September 13, 2003, 10:52

I just noticed the Hive has started production on both the Humane Genome Project and the Planetary Transit System.

Was that already the previous year? I hope they haven't accumulated enough crawlers to build it in just a few turns.

If they would get the HGP, our possibility to move to FM and to pop boom would fall in the water.

Any plans to speed up the SP production, besides moving that AP crawler to Logic Loop asap? And what to do if they get the HGP first?

Edit for spelling error.

Corellion · September 13, 2003, 11:05

That would be a problem...

I've submitted orders to move the crawler to logic loop and begin harvesting minerals... would it be better to disband it?

BTW... I would suggest using the unit workship to design the Synthmetal Supply.

Maniac · September 13, 2003, 11:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Corellion
would it be better to disband it?

I guess so.

Corellion · September 13, 2003, 11:13

Should we prototype synthmetal soon, so that our crawlers can become more efficient?

Maniac · September 13, 2003, 11:48

Upgrading normal crawlers to synthmetal crawlers only gives us an extra 16 minerals right now.

That's too little compared to the cost for upgrading. IIRC upgrading crawlers for SP rushing purposes only becomes profitable when you have at least plasmasteel armour and can add a special ability.

Edit: We could always hope for the best and do nothing, hoping the Hive can't build the HGP in the next four years. But with Kody's and Voltaire's "inventive research methods", who knows they know somehow we are about to finish the HGP, and they are rushing for it too.
Another possibility is to include a short article in the next 3D saying we plan to build the HGP, as that would make us a stronger faction and a better ally, and hope they take the hint and build eg the Virtual World (to screw up the PUT

) instead. But from Voltaire's PMs to Drogue, I get the impression the Hive is very opportunistic, and doesn't care a damn about us.

Phenix · September 14, 2003, 06:33

Would it be so bad if we missed the HGP??
The VW is slightly better IMHO and it doesn't take that much longer to build.... explain me

(the 3D idea seems like a good one tho)

Drogue · September 14, 2003, 07:49

Both are good. I don't really mind to be honest. Go for the HGP, although I would say crawl with the crawler and not disband, and if we can't get it, go for the VW. I would be against putting that into 3D personally, tells others too much. However we could put an article about us going for soemthing else useful and see of they go for that to try to get it before us, thinking they ahve time for the HGP?

Maniac · September 14, 2003, 08:04

Phenix, you raise a valid point. Let me repost an argument I made way back when we were discussing what SP we should aim for. Then it was HGP<->WP, but the principles still count.:

Quote:

Being democratic and planned, and building CCs is the easy way of pop-booming, at least for factions which don't have a growth penalty. But we do. So besides those three conditions, we also need to have Golden Ages. And with planned, those are quite hard to get. Also there is the disadvantage that any psych point beyond 2 times the base size are ignored. For example if the base size is 6, only 12 psych points have an effect, even if you would produce 20 of them. This fact makes it impossible to popboom if we would have B-drones ("very unhappy citizens" created by expansion etcetera), as than we would be unable to create enough talents to make half of our base talented. The only way to get enough talents anyway in the early/mid-game is by building the HGP.

So the choice is the following when determining what SP to aim for: Do we choose for faster terraforming and the inability to popboom, or do we choose for popbooming but normal terraforming speed?
If we don't build the WP, we will have equal terraforming speed as five other factions. Only one faction will have an advantage over us. But if we don't build the HGP, we will face no less than three human factions (not the Pirates, but they have faster growth due to kelp farms) that have the ability to popboom, contrary to us. Anyone familiar with popbooming knows that it can triple your production, economy and labs in a matter of years. The WP's effects are also big, but not thàt big. So when faced with the choice between an advantage we have over the other factions, or a *crucial* advantage we don't have, but all the other humans do, then the choice is simple for me. If we didn't have the growth penalty, I'd gladly vote for the WP. But since we're playing the CyCon, HGP is the way to go IMO.

In short, the advantages of the Human Genome Project are:

It will allow us to pop boom - giving us a tremendous production and energy increase - which will be nearly impossible without that SP.
It will allow us to switch to FM much earlier - without having to build rec commons in each base first - which again would give us a tremendous energy increase.

Opposed to that is the Virtual World which saves us:

the need to build hologram theatres, as network nodes get its uses. But we haven't got even one network node right now, so for the moment that project is useless.
Not having to build a hologram theatre saves us 60 minerals, and a yearly upkeep costs of 3 credits. Though that are a significant advantages, it is virtually nothing compared to the benefits of earlier free market and above all population booming.

***

Anyway, I have another possible idea to beat the Hive to the HGP.
What if this turn we switch production in Logic Loop to the Planetary Transit System? Unless the Hive would be somehow aware of our devious plans, I think the normal reaction should be that they try to complete the PTS before us, and use any crawler they have to rush the PTS and not the HGP. Then, while they are rushing the PTS, we could simply switch production from the PTS to the HGP the turn right before it is completed, leaving them unable to do something against it.

Edit: I see Drogue made a similar suggestion.

But if we don't get the HGP, I think we should still aim for the PTS, and not the VW. Let me explain why.

As said before, the Virtual World has as advantages that it saves us 60 minerals per base, and 3 annual credits per base, at least in the bases where we have built a network node (which is none at the moment).

Compare to that the Planetary Transit System. Any newfounded base starts at size 3, and all already existing bases under size 3 increase to size 3. Added to that is the smaller but still existing benefit that any base of or under size 3 has one less drone. That is half the advantage we would get from the Virtual World, if we had network nodes everywhere at least...

Let's review that a bit more detailed for its consequences.

All new (and already existing) bases jump to size 3. So in a way for every colony pod we build, we actually get three colony pods in return. A colony pod costs 30 minerals. We get two free CPs, added together 60 minerals. So for every base we build, we get as many free minerals as we would gain by building the VW and constructing network nodes in those bases. So that advantage of the VW is equal to that of the PTS.

However those two extra CPs/population points aren't just static things. They produce resources. Let's assume the forest as our standard terraformation at the moment. That produces 1-2-1. Let's not count the nutrients as those are necessary to support the population points, and let's also assume we aren't under FM which would give us an extra energy per population point. But even then the two extra population points we get from the PTS still produce 4 minerals and 2 energy per year, which we wouldn't get without the PTS. That is way more than the 3 energy we save per base from building the VW.

There's also the more general consideration that, if we don't get the HGP, we won't be able to popboom. As a consequence we can't count on a small amount of very large bases like all other factions. Instead, due to our slower growth, to stay competitive we would have to count on building large amounts of small bases. We would have to ICS in other words. The PTS will provide extra strength to that tactic.

Corellion · September 14, 2003, 11:52

I think the following are worth pointing out in this debate:

1) Building the VW will deprive the PUT of it... and it is a very important project for them. Considering we and the PUT seem natural-born enemies, depriving them of this might be a good idea.

2) You listed two advantages for the HGP, namely the ability to pop-boom and the ability to switch to FM earlier. However, I must point out that these benefits are mutually exclusive. If we switch to FM, we lose the +2 growth planned gives us, and we are unable to pop-boom. If we leave it as planned, we don't get the extra energy from FM. Granted, we can always get our pop-booming over with under planned, then switch to FM.

I'm not yet passing judgement, but these are important points which need to be brought up and seem to have been ignored.

*Editted for spelling

Maniac · September 14, 2003, 13:29

Quote:

1)

I think we should think of our own benefit first before considering the luxury of depriving another faction. Also, if we built the HGP or PTS, chance is the Hive will switch one of their SPs to the VW, doing the depriving job for us.
Also, we haven't even met the PUT. I wouldn't want to call them our natural enemies already, certainly not now our contacts with the Hive might not be so good as hoped. If we built the VW, we will make ourselves the natural target of the PUT. Again better then to let the Hive be the PUT's target, and let us build our preferred project.

Quote:

2)

Your last sentence gives the solution to your concern. Standard tactic is to prepare for pop booming (by building creches, crawling nutrients...) under FM and then switch to Planned for a decade or so to popboom, after which one switches back to FM.

Corellion · September 14, 2003, 13:31

Alright, just thought I'd bring those points up.

Phenix · September 15, 2003, 12:08

OK, I concur with the suggestion of changing production to the PTS.

I don't think we can lose something by doing that and it will be interesting to see the Hive's reaction...

Maniac · September 19, 2003, 08:08

The Hive built both the PTS and HGP.

We seem pretty much screwed. With the Angels building three merchant exchanges, the Believers building two Virtual Worlds and a PUT probably wanting to build the VW as well who knows we won't even be able to build the VW and we'll be stuck with a base of eg 150 mineral accumulated with nothing to do with it.

Phenix · September 19, 2003, 11:12

Damn, they really got us there

OK, this is only a wild idea and it probably isn't possible but i'll tell you anyway:

could we switch reseach to Doctrine:Initiative right after we buy/trade for Doc:Flex??
The MCC would then be our backup project in case both the VW and the ME get built before we finish...

but we probably can't switch directly to Doc:Ini

anyone else got a suggestion?? we need to react quick... maybe just put all efforts in rushing the VW??

Maniac · September 19, 2003, 17:49

I've more or less promised PEACE we'll switch to Ethical Calculus after we get DocFlex.

Corellion · September 19, 2003, 18:49

They got BOTH!?!?

Let's switch to VW ASAP, and try to get it... but if not we need to switch to something...

Nubclear · September 19, 2003, 20:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
I've more or less promised PEACE we'll switch to Ethical Calculus after we get DocFlex.

Promises are irrational.

You know this

Googlie · September 20, 2003, 06:25

And from a strategic partnership perspective, it'd make more sense for you, rather than the Pirates, to get the MCC - for them it's just 2 extra movement points (they already got their free naval base when they discovered Doc Ini) - whereas for you it's the movement points plus a free naval base in every coastal base

G

Maniac · September 20, 2003, 06:45

True Googlie, but seeing our recent communications I doubt that the Pirates would be willing to engage in such a close strategic partnership. I certainly can't imagine them giving us Doc:Ini.

Another possibility is going for the Command Nexus if everything else fails. But unless we want to research Doc:Loy - a tech which is no prerequisite for techs like D:AP and EnvEcon - ourselves, we'll have to hope the Hive lives up to its (illegally made) statement and contacts us in a few turns, trading Doc:Loy.

Nubclear · September 20, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
we'll have to hope the Hive lives up to its (illegally made) statement and contacts us in a few turns, trading Doc:Loy.

Could you elaborate on this?

Maniac · September 20, 2003, 17:09

Corellion posted this a while back in the PEACE diplomatic exchanges thread. It started the whole Hive affair. Pay special attention to the last sentence.

Quote:

As for the Hive, here is some interesting news I received in a message from Voltaire: they have some information on us. Voltaire told me (though I'm not sure if he actually knew this, or if he was making it up) that the Hive knew that there were some problems in our pact with PEACE. Considering neither I nor anybody else (as far as I know) has told them of our pact, this is interesting. He has been telling me for some time now that he knows of our pact, but I've dismissed it as his guessing (his explanation is that Kody has been 'watching the power graph', although he insinuated that Kody's been doing a little more than that). This then lent a little more credibility to his next statement that he expects that they will receive our commlink within the next few turns. Interesting events.

I just checked the old turn saves and I noticed the Hive met PEACE in MY 2135. They got MY 2135 at 9 September. The whole cheating affair also erupted 9 September. So it's possible this statement is made after they met PEACE. Theoretically PEACE could have told the Hive that they have met us, that we were pacted but that our relations were not so good. But seeing PEACE doesn't even want to tell us they met the PUT and the Hive, it seems unlikely PEACE would tell all this confidential information to the Hive. This hypothesis is supported by the Pirate PMs asking us back then hat was going on with the Hive.

If PEACE didn't tell them all this information, AFAIK the most likely conclusion seems to be the Hive are cheating somehow. The hacker who gave you all the faction's passwords could be a Hive member who opened the other factions' turn, and thus knew that for example a PEACE ship was heading towards them, or that we and PEACE were pacted. Now I think of it, the Hive being able to open our turn would also tell them we were approaching completion of the Human Genome Project. If for that reason the Hive suddenly rushed the PTS and HGP, robbing us of the SP we were fully aiming for and were relying many of our future strategies on, this whole game is definitely frauded to our disadvantage.

I definitely hope you and Googlie will further investigate this affair...

Nubclear · September 20, 2003, 18:14

Because I do not have access to PEACE forums, GooglieGod will have to investigate over there.
However, obviously I have access to Hiverian forums. I will question a few of them as to whats going on...

Phenix · September 21, 2003, 05:07

Some disturbing thoughts there, Maniac

I hope Googlie's investigation will clarify things a bit....

Still, if we don't get in contact with the Hive (for Doc:Loy) and the Uni or Believers beat us to the VW,
we'll need to switch to another tech (Doc:Ini probably) and let Peace wait a little longer for Eth.Calc.

Maniac · September 21, 2003, 16:06

That would completely and definitely screw up our relations with PEACE though. It should be a really absolute last case resort IMHO. And even then...

Do we need a poll to vote on our next tech choice after DocFlex?

Or perhaps we should probe PEACE if they would be willing to give us the Hive commlink frequency?

Maniac · September 24, 2003, 09:18

Now the Hive has also started construction of the Command Nexus and the Virtual World.

Phenix · September 24, 2003, 10:39

Looks like the famous Hive industrial might isn't just some Pravda propaganda

Googlie · September 25, 2003, 02:45

Quote:

his explanation is that Kody has been 'watching the power graph', although he insinuated that Kody's been doing a little more than that

I am satisfied that "supersleuth" Kody has done an admirable job of deduction from available information

His methods include:

powergraph analysis
tech possession (checking to see what techs the Hive has that others are lacking, and also at what point others seem to be getting techs
SE choice analysis (eg "leapfrog" techs whereby a faction can shift to Wealth without having Ind Base or to Planned without Info Nets), suggesting pact or Treaty swaps
Apolyton and Civgaming Board visitation analysis - who's on when and where, and what happens when there's a flurry of posts (or visits) co-inciding with the turn being stalled

Kody has too much time on his hands!!!

G.

Nubclear · September 25, 2003, 21:06

I believe Kody has a form of obsessive compulsive disorder. From both this and my personal dealings with him.

Kody · June 14, 2004, 04:37

Umm maybe.... Okay yeah I was obsessive of wasting time instead of doing work. I noticed things like the time interval between posts, and how certain people took minutes between posts, or tens of minutes.

Also always being so concerned about wanting people to like me I'm actually rather good at picking up undertones in people's posts. However, I think voltaire turned my "I get the feeling that they're not getting along" into "we know that you've been having problems".

However, the breaking up of Peace and Cycon was a complete surprise to me. While I felt you guys weren't getting along, I didn't really believe it was that bad, and I don't think the Hive would have entered the non-agression pact with the Peace if we had know your plans. Peace were only a threat because we thought you might be working with them.

What was going through my mind was
"Yes, we got a pact with Peace, now hopefully we can contact the Cycon soon since we're all pact brothers".... shortly later.... "Huh the Cycon broke pact with the Peace, what on earth I thought the Peace and the Cycon were working together."

The whole SP thing fell the way it did due to the drones beating us to the WP. One more turn and we would have built the WP.

What happened was the hive was building up crawlers to build the WP and the drones got there first. If they had waited 1 more time we would have made it. We really didn't know what to do, so basically we made a 6-7 year plan to build the HGP and had choosen Biogenetics just so we could get the HGP. I think we pretty much built the HGP as soon as we got biogenetics as we had enough crawlers long before we even started researching the tech. Waiting those couple of years while we researched Biogenetics we got an excess of crawlers. I was thinking of building the VW at the same time as the HGP since we had an excess of crawlers. However through the turn simulator, I figured out that the PTS gave back more industry than it took to build, so we built PTS first then VW later. At the time we built the HGP and PTS we were getting like 4 crawlers per turn??? not sure need to check.

Later CN was because we had organised for the drones to build the ME. we wanted people to be uncertain that we were getting the VW so that the drones would get a better chance to build the ME. We assumed you guys were almost in the same situation as the Hive. Having lots of spare crawler waiting for the right time to cash them in, that's why the pretending to build the CN.

I don't know where you've discussed getting SPs, however the Hive had it's build dates set in stone most likely years before you did. The turn simulator + having to first research the tech before we could build the SP made us pretty sure when we could build.