German sissies

Saint Marcus · May 16, 2000, 10:13

I'm playing Red Front 1.4 now and the Germans are pathetic! In v1.0 they kicked ass (or I played really bad) but now I can easely beat them.

In summer 41 I managed to hold various key cities, including Kiev. Killed those pesky Karls with Cruisers.

In winter 41-42 I already recaptured some cities.

In summer 42 I managed to hold Rostov, Smolensk en Sevastopel thus securing the Caucasus, Stalingrad and Moscow.

In winter 42-43 launched a massive counter offensive and freed numerous cities including Kharkov. German hedgehogs were appearing in places they never even set foot on

In summer 43 the Germans are quite week indeed...so I just continued my advance and captured Minsk in May (and several other cities as well).

Now I'm in June 43 and I expect to be in Germany by the end of the year...

Nemo, is v1.4 really that much easier? I didn't even cheat or semi cheat or spend many resources on research...the Germans never even attacked Stalingrad, Leningrad or Moscow

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Lancer: MarkL, well said, everything...

"Only resolution and habit can let me make an entry tonight. I am too miserable, too low-spirited, too sick of the world and all in it, including life itself, that I would not care if I heard this moment the flapping of the wings of the Angel of Death."
[This message has been edited by Mark L (edited May 16, 2000).]

DarthVeda · May 16, 2000, 14:51

Three things are possible:

1) You used some good tactics
2) Germans didn't kill so many Red Army as they should have in '41, thus spawning very few units.
3) Some events failed to load.

May 16, 2000, 15:05

YOU MANAGED TO HOLD SMOLENKS?

*HECK*

Saint Marcus · May 16, 2000, 15:39

1. My tactics were relatively simple I guess.

In most eastern cities I build Cavalry since they are fast (all as road) and have almost the same stats as light tanks, but they are a lot cheaper. In cities not to far from the front with low production I build Red Army units.

I concetrated my defense in certain key cities. In those cities (Kiev, Minsk, Smolensk, Sevastopel, Rostow, and a few others) I had tonnes of units stationed (20 to 50). In the other cities only a handfull of Red Army units. The Germans concentrated their attacks on the heavely defended cities and not so much on the weaker defended cities. Of course, they still conquered many of them but their advance slowed down tremendously in their attacks on the key cities. I was able to hold my own three objectives (Smolensk, Rostow, Sevastopel) but it was very close at times.

When attacking I mainly used Tanks supported by Cavalry. I only used the other units in small numbers...never had more then 20-30 of them around in my entire nation.

Leningrad was easely defended by those Fortified Batteries. The Germans had no chance of destroying them.

Moscow was also never in danger. I managed to hold Smolenk in the summer 1941, but lost Vitebsk (the city next to it). In the winter of 1941 I launched a massive attack on Vitebsk to make sure Moscow would be safe. I suceeded but the anti-tank defences were destroyed. In summer 1942 the Germans launched a massive attack against the cities. Vitebsk was destroyed but the sheer number of units in Smolensk was enough to carry it trough the summer. Then in the winter I launched an all out counter offensive and never had any more problems there.

Stalingrad was also quite safe. I managed to hold on to Sevastopel and Kerch thus securing the Caucasus. I used Cruisers to destroy enemies coming from Perekop (including the Karls). In the summer of 1942 the Germans nearly took Rostow, but when I just had 2 defenders left (cavalry and motorised infantry) the winter came and I could push the Germans back. If I had lost it it would be very problematic since my Caucasus cities had virtually no defenses (had to sacrifice theirs to protect Rostov).

And from the winter of 1942 everything was going easy.

2. I build quite a number of Red Army units in cities I couldn't defend just to slow them down. I think the germans killed over 250 of them by summer 1943. Most of them in 1941 I think since I didn't use as many after that in the front lines.

3. I got all events I think...pontoon bridge, kursk offensive, karls, etc.

All in all I don't think I was that good. The only thing I can think of is that Nemo perhaps made the Cavalry units a bit too good (all as road, strong as a light tank, very cheap). After the Red Army the unit I used most is the Cossack Cavalry. Very few planes, cannons or rocketlaunchers (kata-something). Only producing tanks in the big cities. Cruisers in the Black Sea. That's about it.

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Lancer: MarkL, well said, everything...

"Only resolution and habit can let me make an entry tonight. I am too miserable, too low-spirited, too sick of the world and all in it, including life itself, that I would not care if I heard this moment the flapping of the wings of the Angel of Death."

Xin Yu · May 16, 2000, 16:24

Terrific Mark L! I got a hunch that the corssacks were useful (I posted it somewhere), but did not check it through.

For the same amount of money to buy a KV-1, 3 Corssacks can be built. And behind city walls they are good enough against most land units. You can instantly build a dozen of them plus 4 AA batteries to defend a city.

This makes another research path more attractive -- you can build IL-2 on October 1941 and slaughter the German.

PolarisGL · May 16, 2000, 17:49

Mark, would you be so kind enough to e-mail me a strategy to insert onto the Art of War? Sun Tzu would be very pleased.

Saint Marcus · May 17, 2000, 07:42

I have just e-mailed by strategy to you...I will post it here also.

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* General tips:

Use cruisers or aircraft against the Karls and Tigers.

Build cities with Anti Tank Defences on the Ruble and Fortified Battery units and make that the home town of those units to strenghten their defences and keep from getting disband when certain cities are taken. I only did it in 3 places, but it really worker wonders.

* Summer 1941:

The Germans will seem unstopable in this part of the scenario. Therefor the key is not to stop them, but to slow them down.

What to build:

Have your cities in the east and cities with a low production build Cossack Cavalry units. Although they seem obsolete they are they have the best price-performance ratio in the early part of the game. They are almost as strong as Light Tanks, but they also ignore ZOC, treat all squares as roads and are a lot cheaper. They are strong enough to take on German light tanks and infantry units and fast enough to get to key cities in time (movement: 6 in summer, 4 in winter regardless of the terrain). Behing Anti-Tank defences they can defend themselves pretty well. Build lots of these units and use them in large numbers in defence and counter-attacks.

Your cities with a higher production should build tanks, tank hunters, howitzers, aircraft, and other high performance units.

What to defend:

Concentrate your defenses in certain key cities with a high production (like Kiev, Minsk, Zaporozhye, etc). Of course, you will still loose most of them but the Germans will be slowed down a lot. The AI will concentrate it's attacks on your well defended cities and leave the others alone. Because of this I still had possesion of Daugavpils in summer 1942 while it was only defended by 1 Red Army unit.

What to attack:

Don't attack any German cities just yet. Wait with that till the winter comes.

Key areas:

There are 3 places in this scenario that are very important to hold: Smolensk/Vitebsk, Sevastopel/Kerch, Rostow. Try your utmost to hold these three places to make sure Moscow, Stalingrad and the Caucasus are secure.

Holding both Smolensk and Vitebsk is probably impossible, but losing both will put Moscow and the cities around it at great risk. Try your best to hold at least Smolensk (I did it) by keeping it constantly supplied from the east (trough Moscow). Cavalry units are very handy here.

Sevastopel is relatively secure thanks to the fortified batteries, but if you loose Kerch these will be disbanded. Keep Kerch well supplied from both Sevastopel and the Caucasus. When Perekop falls make sure you have a few Cruisers standing by to take care of those Karls easely.

Rostow won't be under heavy attack in this part of the scenario just yet, but better start building up lots of defenses in advance.

Leningrad is probably safe because of the fortified batteries defending it, but if you do loose it at some poin in the scenario it isn't a major disaster since the city doesn't have an extremely high production.

* Winter 1941:

The Germans will slow down in the winter, but they are still quite strong. You can try to launch your first counter-offenses now.

What to build:

Still the same as in the summer of 1941. Cavalry is even more usefull now, also when attacking.

What to defend:

Again, concentrate on the important cities.

What to attack:

Now you can try your first counter-offenses. Try to retake or destroy Smolensk/Vitebsk, Sevastopel/Kerch, Rostow if you have lost them. I still had control of Smolensk but lost Vitebsk in the summer. In the winter I tried a counter offensive from Moscow and Smolensk to Vitebsk and reconquered the city. In the summer it was destroyed though, but it was enough to keep the Germans away from Moscow.

Key areas:

Build up massive defences in Smolensk/Vitebsk, Sevastopel/Kerch, Rostow or try to reconquer them if you lost any of them. If you can hold these cities for another year then you have won the war.

* Summer 1942:

The Germans will be back on the offense, and will (again) seem unstopable. Try to hold the three key areas at all cost.

What to build:

Cavalry, AA Bateries, Tanks and Tank Hunters. Those units are the most important in this part.

What to defend:

Concentrate only on the 3 key areas (and Leningrad).

What to attack:

Don't attack anything now. Wait until the winter for a massive counter offensive that could win the war.

Key areas:

Try your utmost to hold Smolensk/Vitebsk, Sevastopel/Kerch, Rostow. Losing Vitebsk and Sevastopel isn't crucial, but holding Kerch, Rostow and Smolensk is. If you do lose any of those cities concentrate your defenses on the cities directly behind them. Especially Rostow is very important, but very difficult) to hold. Keep it well suplied from Stalingrad.

* Winter 1942:

Now is your time to strike! If you can take some important cities now there is a big chance you will win.

What to build:

Cavalry is still very handy. Tanks also do well when moving on roads.

What to defend:

Try to hold all cities if you can now...the Germans won't try any massive offenses now.

What to attack:

First secure the three key areas. Especcially Rostow. If you have all of them, and destroyed the German army near Rostow (with the Hedgehogs), just take the cities closest by. I managed to take Kharkov and all cities close to it. Could have easely taken Minsk too.

Key areas:

It is very important to secure those three key areas now. If you don't the Germans will be all over you in the summer again, but if you can secure them you will almost surely win the scenario. Especially try to secure Rostow. That's the key.

* Summer 1943

The Germans will try to launch a counter strike, but they won't be as powerfull as in 1941/42. If you can continue your advance, if not, consolidate in your main cities.

What to build:

Anything you want. Aircraft will do nicely, but Cavalry units are still usefull.

What to defend:

Try to hold all (main) cities. This is the point were you can see if you will win the scenario. If you keep on loosing lots of cities you will probably loose the scenario. If you still don't have Rostow and Stalingrad and the Caucasus are not VERY heavely defended then you are almost sure to loose.

What to attack:

If you can keep the momentum going you can be in Germany by 1944. If your advance is slow, but you are not losing any major cities then you might get to germany in 45/46.

Key areas:

If you still don't have Rostow then it will be very difficult to win. Also, the Kursk event will really mess up your defences if you are barely holding on.

Can you still win?

At this part of the scenario you can see if you are going to win or not. If you are still capturing quite a number of cities then you can be in Germany by the end of 43/44. If you are only capturing a few cities without losing more then you will probably reach Germany in 45. If you are just holding your ground without losing any important cities you might be still able to beat the germans...maybe you can get to Germany in 46? If you are still losing ground, even just a few cities, then you will probably lose. Later on the Germans will get weaker because of (for instance) American attacks but don't expect to beat the Germans on your own.

* Winter 1943 and onwards

If you can't get a massive counter offensive on it's feet now you will lose. Otherwise: happy hunting!

What to build:

Heavy Tanks, Katyusha, aircraft...use Cavalry for scouting (all as road, ignore ZOC)

What to defend:

If you are still defending now then you are obviously doing something wrong

What to attack:

Anything German.

Mao · May 17, 2000, 10:17

OK, wait a minute, did I just hear a Dutchman call the Germans sissies?

Xin Yu · May 17, 2000, 10:59

Hey Mark L, you did not mention using of aircrafts in Summer 1942. If you have a few IL-2s then you can kill German in stacks of 4 and most of them can never get close to Rostov. For the units having 'x2 against air' flag, instead of using IL-2s, use partisans and cruisers to kill them when they are close.

You also did not mention partisans.

May 17, 2000, 15:40

There are people using Red Army units?
As far as I know there is for every Red Army unit that's killed a Wehrmacht unit AND a Wehrmacht SG unit created. So I don't use Red Army units. I retreat those Red Army units that are the lower ones in the rules (and also the mil. advisor) from the front to get them upgraded to red guards in winter. when they are killed, the Germans become stronger, when they are retreated, i become stronger in winter and the following summers. The only reason for building Red Army units can be to stop the Germans or at least make them slower, i think. Did I miss anything?

Saint Marcus · May 17, 2000, 15:50

Like I said, I didn't check the events or strategies first...so I really did made quite a number of Red Army units...250 got killed, still 200 left.

Sten Sture · May 17, 2000, 16:27

You may have built so many units that you maxed out the number and prevented the Germans from building more.

That being said, I built a lot of vet Cossack Cavalry and was doing pretty well until my harddrive crashed. Cossacks (summer) are 6a5d2m 2h2f all as road and only cost 30 shields so you can build a ton of them and move them quickly. Vets in cities behind walls, especially on rivers, makes them pretty tough. Much better than the 30 shield 6-6-5 Mech that only has 1f. If you can't afford KV1s or AA, build Cossacks for defense.

Saint Marcus · May 17, 2000, 16:44

I think Nemo made those Cavalry units a bit to strong...I think it would be better with just 1 fp instead of 2

DarthVeda · May 17, 2000, 18:29

And what about attacking german Inf with cossack?

Sortub · May 17, 2000, 21:35

I've actually had my partisans retake Minsk on a couple of occasions in the wintertime of 42-43. They seem to kill off a lot of fighter planes. Then, the trick is to speed built a KV1 to defend the city before help arrives from the east.

Also, in my last game, units from the Brest-Litovsk fortress held out for the duration of the war! I find that you can re-capture and destroy that city with those units, also killing lots of fighter plans and camped out Stukas.
[This message has been edited by Sortub (edited May 17, 2000).]

Saint Marcus · May 18, 2000, 00:02

I didn't even have any Il-aircraft in 42 (only a handfull of bombers)...and I also hardly used any partisans in organised attacks. Usually just on their own killing German reinforcements heading for Minsk...I didn't rely on them much.

I did not play this game many times over or tried different tactics. I just installed civII on my new computer and started playing Red Front just for fun. The last time I played was when v1.0 just got out (quite a while ago) and I didn't play the game since nor read any strategies. I was quite suprised that the Germans were so weak. The strategy I posted was all I did...nothing special I think.

And yes Mao, you did

And we'll beat them at the Euro Cup too this summer!

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Lancer: MarkL, well said, everything...

"Only resolution and habit can let me make an entry tonight. I am too miserable, too low-spirited, too sick of the world and all in it, including life itself, that I would not care if I heard this moment the flapping of the wings of the Angel of Death."
[This message has been edited by Mark L (edited May 17, 2000).]

Xin Yu · May 18, 2000, 01:05

Forget to ask: what levels do you guys play?

Saint Marcus · May 18, 2000, 01:56

What do you think? Deity of course! What else?

Sten Sture · May 18, 2000, 13:16

What Civ version? I am not sure it makes any difference - I am playing it in MGE, which shouldn't be any big deal since the major complaint about it was an angry AI. I think Nemo made sure the Nazi's wouldn't like the Ruskies.

How much variation have you guys noticed in any restarts.

I played the opening couple of turns twice, and I got radically different German June results. Most of the variance it seemed was where the unbeatable Stukas attacked, and if they attained their early objectives; which seemed to reload/create new units. The varience was such that it leads me to believe we may get very different results if we play it again. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Mark L was lucky or anything, your strategy sounds very efficient. Now Sortub's Brest-Litovsk recapture sounds lucky!

I got nowhere with that one both times...

I haven't looked at the events files, and won't until I get bored with the game, but I wonder if there are random early events.

Sortub · May 18, 2000, 13:38

I posted an account of my game on the "Red Front Suggestions" thread. As I wrote before, v. 1.3 scared the hell out of me, and I was a much weaker player at the time. So, I wanted to be "smooth" with the scenario and played 1.4 at the second-easiest level. I admit I have much to learn.

As far as Brest-Litovsk, I attacked a lot of units there with that stack of machine guns in the fortress. Maybe I was just lucky. However, after I destroyed the city, I noticed that the game didn't trigger the Warsaw partisans event. I think B-L needs to be captured in order for that to happen.

Another thing I found is that, around summer-winter '44, the Carpathians were a pain to cross. It is much easier to take the Southern Route through Bulgaria and up the Danube, as I noticed the real Red Army did.
[This message has been edited by Sortub (edited May 18, 2000).]

Saint Marcus · May 18, 2000, 14:44

Xin Yu: I've just read it...some good things in it...but the entire micromanagement part isn't really that important. Eventhough Nemo claims otherwise it is a war scenario

I didn't give a damn about micromanagement

Thank God for the "automate settler" option! I only cared about kicking some German butt!

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Lancer: MarkL, well said, everything...

"Only resolution and habit can let me make an entry tonight. I am too miserable, too low-spirited, too sick of the world and all in it, including life itself, that I would not care if I heard this moment the flapping of the wings of the Angel of Death."

The ANZAC · May 18, 2000, 19:39

Does anyone know what makes partisans so effective against Zero attack units?

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"There's one more thing you men can say when it's all over and you're home once more. You can thank God that twenty years from now when you're sitting by the fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you what you did in the war, you won't have to shift him to the other knee, cough and say, 'I shovelled **** in Louisiana.'"
-General George S. Patton addressing his troops before D-Day landings June 1944

Xin Yu · May 19, 2000, 00:42

Yes, Mark, I believe you play on deity since you lost so many cities at the beginning.

Have you checked out my strategy on the Art of War site? An early version was posted and discussed on this forum titled "Xin Yu's red front 1.4 strategy". I'd like to see your opinion.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited May 18, 2000).]

Xin Yu · May 19, 2000, 15:53

ANZAC: Go to your civ2 directory and find a file named 'Misc.txt'. It's all in the file.