AUSG 101 - Domination Team DAR 2

Rhothaerill · September 19, 2003, 00:11

This is the DAR (“during action report”) thread for the second turn block of 30 turns (2150bc – 1250bc) for the domination team. Please post your DAR of the next 30 turns, including thoughts of why you did what you did in the game, along with a screenshot at 1250bc and a savegame at 1250bc. Please name your save with your nickname, team name, and the time (i.e. rhoth-domination-1250bc).

Team registry:

The Arsenal
Konquest02
Theseus
Master Zen
Taian
Beta
Charlie_Six

Current voting (by opportunist team)

Konquest02: 3
Taian: 1

Total votes: 4 of 7

Master Zen · September 19, 2003, 02:23

Ok, me go first again! (pretty obvious I don't have much to do late at night eh!)

I'm going less detailed this time:

2150 - Archer attacks barb camp and wins (btw, the reason I had that archer fortified is that there was a US warrior which attacked the camp for like three turns but the camp kept spawning a new warrior. Thus, whenever I got the save, there were two units in the camp. I decided to wait until the camp didn't respawn until I attacked so my archer and not the warrior got the gold.). Moving slider to get gold for a future chariot-horse upgrade.

2070 - Baghdad founded. Toku wants Masonry or else... up yours buddy! (chickens out of war)

2030 - Archers spots another camp southeast.

1990 - Barb camp destroyed (damn still no promotions

)

1870 - My scout now blocks the southern continent (Carthage). No carthaginian units managed to pass (at least I didn't notice)

1750 - Najran founded near the furs

1625 - Horse barb appears! In another barb combat my reg archer is promoted

1575 - Kufah built near the western game

1525 - Barb camp killed

1475 - I had sent a spear towards the chokepoint because a barb had appeared (I was only guarding it with a scout). However, a horse appeared but luckily it fortified in front of the spear. I took the risk and attacked it on this turn and killed it with no HP lost and a promotion to vet spear. On this turn the spices were connected.

1350 - Basra founded a bit north. I'll use it as a bastion against future operations by the japanese.

1325 - WAR WITH THE USA! Why? Because we're raging psycho warmongers that's why! Atlanta attacked. Only defended by one spear. Lost an archer but the city razed.

1250 - US reg archer killed, my reg archer is promoted but is at 2-hp. Khurasan founded as 3rd camp city.

Stats:

Order of battle: 5 archers (all vet), 4 chariots (all vet), 4 warriors (3 reg, 1 con), 4 spearmen (1 leet, 3 reg), 1 scout, 4 workers

GNP: 39 million
Manuf: 28 megatons

Main cities:

Mecca (3): 7 spt, 4 fpt.
Medina (4): 5 spt, 2 fpt.
Baghdad (3): 5 spt, 1 fpt.
Damascus (3): 4 spt, 2 fpt.

443 gold, +1gpt, going for Polytheism in 9. Ahead in techs compared to every civ. Japan has HBR.

vmxa1 · September 19, 2003, 02:40

Wow that was fast. I have not even started.

Master Zen · September 19, 2003, 03:03

First of all, I felt compelled to go first since I see some of the other guys are unfamiliar with the camp system. Hopefully with this DAR you can check out more or less what was my intention behind them and adjust your own game accordingly if you so wish (and most likely do better than I did because I kinda rushed through it).

Analyzing bit by bit:

City placement. IMO city placement is the first big thing one should plan. The camps did in the first round were set ups for the planned placement (my "X"s in the other DAR's map). All in all it ended up in an RCP-3 pattern going for a 2-tile, 3-tile and 4-tile combination. The first ring, are the now three camp cities (Damascus, Medina and Khurasan). As it stands neither of them really need to get over size 4 at the moment although later on in the era I'd push them to 6. The second ring are the 4-tile cities around the capital (Kufah, Najran, and Baghdad). These are all core cities, they are not made to build units (yet) but rather improvements. Baghdad has a granary, it will be the second settler pump once it finishes the temple, and Kurfan may also switch to a granary once the temple is done and the game irrigated. That's 3 settler pumps. (a 4th first ring city will be eventually built west of Khurasan)

Finally, the last ring only has once city so far, Basra, built as a base for future operations against the japanese. Three more future cities would be built at the same distance, with the important one (i.e. next one I'd build) being the one east of Medina. With a forest chop it is possible to get a temple pretty quick and it would net the iron in its radius. The southernmost x also looks to be a great manufacturing city.

The Building Part. I can't stress enough how important being a good builder is to being a great warmonger. I used a similar definition of the term warmonger in another thread a few days ago:

War-mon-ger. noun. A player who sees military action as the road to ultimate victory. Contrary to popular misconception, a warmonger will resort to extensive building to gear up for future conflict, therefore the adoption of building and warmongering activity is only differentiated as being separate means for an end (the builder resorts to war to make room and time for building). Players who resort to reckless warmongering paying little heed to successful building are best known as psycho warmongers.

My point is, get your cities into shape and soon! In this game, I gave special emphasis on two types of cities, the camps and the settler pumps (Mecca and Baghdad). The camps had their barracks quickly built (Khurasan is new and will get the barracks hurried by a forest chop). However, the true feat here isn't so much with the camps but with the pumps. The pumps here are actually dual cities. They are both pumps and camps. The trick was to successfully manage WF allocation as to make them build both a settler and a unit during the time it takes them to recover the lost pop points from the previous settler.

Take Mecca for example. By coordinating food and production, it builds both a settler and a 20 shield unit (archer or spear) in a 7 turn period while never going below size 3 and never wasting a turn. Baghdad will now produce a temple with 6 turns remaining. Since it is a 5 spt city, it will knock out a settler right before it turns into size 4 (Baghdad will need further coordination to make it not drop to size 2).

Why all this fuss over two silly cities? Because out-REXing yourself is bad! I've seen people who have a huge amount of cities and then can't either defend them or make them productive soon enough (not enough workers and poorly connected). What this build allows is for every settler being built, a unit will soon follow for defense (and MP purposes).

In the long term, this as well as the fact that Mecca only built a granary means there is potential for a palace jump if necessary. Hopefully this will be accomplished once the camps outlive their purpose sometime in the middle/late middle age. Normally I would only build 2 camps around Mecca but I built 3 because Mecca's production is so darn perfect it never needs to go above size 4. All those extra tiles in its radius are best used then for the camps.

Strategic Situation

We have one opponent (Carthage) which is basically shut out from the fun. Good. Japan and the US are the main rivals, with the US being perhaps the greatest one since they are closer and seem to be expanding more aggressively. They also have apparently the iron connected which means they'll start building swordsmen soon. Time for pre-emption. The US is not large enough to truly be a threat to our survival, but it deserves to be battered down a bit. The weapon of choice at this stage is the archer and the objective is not ambitious: knock out 2, hopefully 3 cities and then ask for peace (and whatever goodies they want to spill out).

Next step would be japan. Japan is farther away and is best dealt with horses. For this reason, a considerable chariout upgrade is planned. I would expect around 8 horsemen for this attack (with perhaps an extra 2 on the way) and try and push them as far back as possible hopefully even killing them off if there are few casualties. Finally, a death blow should be dealt to the US with a swordsmen stack.

So the plan would be

1) build archers (done) and damage the US.
2) after the archers, build up chariots (being done)
3) sue for peace with the US, and upgrade the chariots to horses and launch against Japan
4) after the chariots are done, build warriors.
5) mass upgrade 10-15 swords for a death blow against the US
6) build horses once warriors are done.
7) Kill of Japan with remaining horses.
8) Do I see a mass Ansar upgrade after this... yes!!! Meet Allah, Hannibal!

9) see who else is out there and kill them too.

Summary

As you can see my strategy is 1) consolidate, 2) build up 3) cripple the biggest rival a bit 4) keep on building up 5) Kill your neighbors 6) expand like the plague.

I am not a fan or wreckless expansion. Nor am I a fan of ultra early warfare against civs that aren't ultra close. I like to calculate the enemy's expansion and check them once they out-REX their defensive possibilities. On Monarch this is much easier. Sure, the cost of not killing them so early are bigger, but then again, so is your military capacity compared to gearing up for an ultra early conflict (where there is always a tradeoff between building/expanding/war)

That is IMO, the beauty of the camp system. It allows to to feel safe at first and strike with more power a bit later (even if your enemy is also a bit more powerful) yet never sacrifice the building/expansion.

Well, I hope this explination works out well, and good luck to everyone in this round!

vmxa1 · September 19, 2003, 12:05

I like it, nice job.

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 14:39

Hey folks! I will be gone for work till next friday, so I dunno if I'll have the time later to do this, so here's my thingie

The Plan: See graphic below. I saw OBJECTIVE FUR as the biggest settlement threat. That's some nice terrain, so I wanted to deny Japan and America of it. I'd block Carthage with a scout, and scout, but not engage the Americans unless they settled to close for comfort.

I figured beyond the American core, there wasnt great land they would be settling, and thier rate would be slower than the Japanese.

(sorry for the ruff graphics, at home I reinstalled some stuff and dont have ms office lol)

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:00

1950bc - Trade some tech, currently researching poly, (going for monarchy) Only had 3 forces available to defend OBJECTIVE FUR, so right off the bat I had them hot-foot it up there. The ragtag manuever force consisted of a scout, a archer, (took care of a barbarian on the way, but no time to rest!), and a conscript barbarian.

Then, scouts report - contact settler force and 2 Japan warriors for escort...oh my!

Showdown near Osaka.....

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:08

And here was the situation at the home base. I had mecca pump out a extra worker. Wanted to connect the iron, and have the area developed enough. I did my best to use the Zen technique of camps. I was concentrating on building and ect, and as you can see later, kinda went crazy on roads.

The settler there is headed to Najran. Baghdad founded before, (prolly same time as Zen's)

I played all this last nite before I saw Zen's thingie

I was frustrated with Damascus...just not doing much of jack.

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:14

1790- Showdown at Osaka and skirmish

Well, I blocked the forward progress to the sweet spots, then they took off to the mountains. I figured no biggie, go settle that hill over there.

But then a settle came back, with only 1 warrior escort. They breached the line I drew, so our brave lil archer guy attacked and was victorious! Slaves show here moving S.

With only 2 cities, I figured this force would be adequate to block. I sent a reserve barbarian regular as reserve.

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:23

And here's the 1750 COPbc, (Current Operating Picture)

OBJ FUR: Looking good, got 2 settler, mission success so far on that front.

Observation Post 1, (OP1) (the blue triangle) Looking ok..but with the 1/1 Cav (dismounted) being dismounted, he can't screen, so he's keeping a lookout for settler activity

OBJ Spice: Looking good, no activity.

Back Home: It's arseholes and elbows near Baghdad. I think I developed it too fast there actually, and it's pop went through the roof.

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:36

1575- Sold Myst to carthage for some cash(20g)

by this time got horses connected, and already traded for horseback riding, (horse connected in 1700) so a camp produce the first MOUNTED element, the 1/2 Cavalry (Mounted)

Just in time too, as Japan counterattacks, and so do the barbarian horde. Unknown to the scout he is doomed

Moving south to an observation position on the mountain, he is ambushed by a mounted barbarian force that just established a new camp near there.

1575 was a ruff year, with all this happeneing, Abe bullies for horseback riding. I gave it to em.

Of course the camp thing worked great, I was able to manuever my really small base militia to defend, and no worker production lost!

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 15:53

1375bc another busy year

OBJ Fur- Still holding back a civ with a bad-arse archer, and 2 warriors. The warriors got out of that scrable before by using the woods. The Japs attacked, and failed

OBJ Landslide, (OP1 and Screen) Americans got a city through, the 1/1 Cav tried to run as fast as they could but didn't make it in time to block. with 1/3 and 1/4 Cav out there now, the screen is up and running.

OBJ Spice: ALERT! A Carthage settler is spotted! I put douwn Kufah a few turns before. A note on Kufah placement:
1. Yeah, it's at 4.5 or 5 but I chose it's location for blocking value, and mobility, (creates a canal if you want to get ships thru)

Cities are going nicely, I was still frustrated with Damascus...I know its just a camp but ugh! I still havent put a barracks there, was producing militia folks.

There is our first swordsman protecting a worker for a future city, sent him to take care of the barb situation down there. (search and destroy)

Currently researching Monarchy in 24 as you can see

Heres the COP of 1375bc:

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 16:17

1250bc (sorry not much content and whys but im in a kinda rush)

Here's the COP for 1250bc. Yeah maybe went overboard on the horseman, but I like my information. This is close to where I wanted to be at 2150bc..OBJ FUR ready for settlement unfettered, have iron and horseback riding, with monarchy in 17 turns.

If Atlanta gets too close to our iron, we can move heavy swordsman down the iron road to make that happen. We have a great picture of what's goin on on the continent, and control the important terrian..(if you think that's important..I do anyways

I did my best with the Camp strategy, maybe 1 too many worker, and I didn't use a slave for the colony, (ouch heh)

Biggest city placement for discussion is prolly Kufah, but I stated why before so debate away hehe.

We have the biggest, baddest, most technologically advance army in the known world.

We are advance tech wise with writing, and poly, with monarchy just around the corner. Sold poly to carthage, but they dont have HR

We set the conditions for OBJ FUR to be settled, and we have that option. Japan in eager for peace, so we can do that also.

Civ wise, ok, I made some mistakes. First time at ZenCamping(tm) Could have produced a settler in Baghdad before the temple cuz it grew really fast.
Basra has had a worker clearing the forest for the temple.

But gotta mosee, good luck all! Nice map too btw Zen. I feel all warm and fuzzy we placed some cities in the same spot.

charlie_six · September 19, 2003, 16:24

oops and the save:

Rhothaerill · September 19, 2003, 16:38

I'm definitely interested in seeing how the camp strategy works on this map. I took RCP into consideration when designing it, but didn't take camps into consideration since I haven't ever used them before.

Taian · September 19, 2003, 22:10

I have to say that I'm not altogether comfortable with this "camp" thing...I've never played it before so not sure how this thing is going to play out. I *really* want to get a horse rush going soon, so I've switched the research from writing to horseback. 10 turns to get it. Once the worker is done in Damascus, I'm going to throw up a barracks there and then pump out some horse from the two camps. Hoping to make the first rush with a group of 6 or 7. I'm going to send that settler in Mecca down to the game by the river.

2150BC - Knocked out the barb encampment with the archer.

2030BC - Mecca builds a spearman and starts work on another settler. Baghdad founded west of game on river.

1950BC - I'm looking at doing a bit of an archer rush now, followed by a horse rush later. Medina has just finished another vet archer, and is now going to get a warrior to garrison and then will be ready to pump out horse. Damascus finished its worker and is now starting a barracks. From one of my scouts, I can see Edo is undefended and I now have 4 archers on the way to Japan.

1870BC - Mecca has finished another settler and Medina finished it''s warrior. Time for Medina to prebuild an archer to switch to horse in 2 turns. Mecca is keeping on going with the setllers. Japan has horseback, but I'm not inclined to trade away the tech advantage that I have seeing as I'm going to get it in 2 turns anyway... Shoot. Just noticed I have to hook up horses before I can build those horsemen...dumb resources

1830BC - Baghdad built a warrior and will not churn out a worker before going for a barracks to join the horse pumpers.

1790BC - Horseback Riding. I'm moving a settler up by the horses north of Medina to get them connected asap. Next stop Polytheism in 18 turns.

1750BC - Things are not looking good for Edo. No defense and an archer right beside it... Founded Najran on the horses north of Medina. Worker is close to getting it hooked up.

1730BC - Mecca finishes another settler. I could build another one there but I want to let the pop bounce up a little farther first yet. Then I'll start a settler/horse strategy. So...it's barracks time in Mecca. Medina completes archer. I really want to get those horses moving...another few turns til that road is done to Najran. Hmm...a warrior appeared in Edo. Archer against a warrior seem like pretty good odds, plus I've got 2 more archers there next turn. So it's war time!

Seems the RNG gods are frowning on me. Lost the archer without done a single point of damage to the warrior. Plus, the warrior got a promotion. I was attacking grassland to grassland and not even across a river. Stupid dumb luck

1700BC - Round 2 with Edo. A vet and a regular archer vs a vet fortified warrior. Reg Archer hits first and takes Edo without suffering a single HP of damage. Best of all, I have the option of keeping a city

Edo is now the property of the Arabs. Still Have the 2 archers up there, plus a warrior 2 moves from Edo. There's also a third regular archer a little further south. Once the warrior makes it to Edo, I plan on moving the 3 archers further into Japanese territory.

1675BC - Baghdad finishes it's worker and starts on a barracks. My vet archer takes down a regular warrior outside of Edo, but doesn't get a promotion. No worries though...one less Japanese military unit to deal with. The worker up by Najran just started the last bit of road to link horses to the empire. 3 turns til the boys come loose..

1625BC - Kufah founded on the hills east of Medina. I know, I know...I'm starting to spread out too much. But, I want to capitalize on the game tile. A warrior, previously there, is the first garrison unit. First build is a spearman.
Hmm...haven't been at it very long and already Toku is willing to give up Osaka. Sweet deal. Looks like the Arab-Japanese war is over

For now... Started another trade sequence with Toku and seems he has a settler up at the plate as well. Must have been in Osaka before. Anyway, I'm trading him Alphabet in exchange for the worker. Need to augment the worker force right now...

Taian · September 19, 2003, 22:11

1600BC - The road to Najran has been completed and horseman can now be built.

1575BC - Mecca finishes barracks. Before building another settler, we're going for a horseman (4 turns).

1550BC - The first horseman of the Arab empire is built in Medina. Let's keep 'em coming.

1500BC - Najran completes a worker. I'm going to chop the forest down in the immediate area to get a granary up and running there. With the flood plains, it should be a decent food generating city.

1475BC - Horseman complete in Mecca. Time to focus on settlers again in the capitol.

1450BC - Barracks completed in Damascus...more horsemen to follow after a warrior is built to garrison.

1425BC - Horseman in Medina.

1400BC - Polytheism discovered. Monarcy 26 turns away, so off we go. Settler completed in Mecca. Horseman queued up next. I figure it's time to close the gap between the core and Edo/Osaka. The settler is going to head up to the grassland there.

1375BC - Trade Mysticism to Carthage for 75 gold. Everyone else knows it already...may as well make the cash while I can.

1325BC - I lied...decided to found Basra on the hill north of Mecca. Seems to fit in nice with the other ones...RCP is out the window

1300BC - Mecca builds a horseman. Time for another settler. I contacted the Americans to find that they had researched writing. Not wanting to give up Polytheism, I'm going to trade them contact with the Carthaginians for Writing. Good deal as far as I'm concerned. Now I can set up embassies with America and Japan too see how close they are on the wonders (Japan's building oracle and America is building Pyramids). Sold contact with Carthage to Toku as well for 37 gold. Embassy in Kyoto reveals still 13 turns til the Oracle. Plus, they only have 2 spears at home. I have 3 horse and 4 archers within striking distance....looks like Kyoto is going to fall. America is 15 turns from the Pyramids. Good deal. Hopefully they've finished it by the time the Arab horseman start breathing down their necks.
Confident that it's time to take Kyoto, my stack of 4 archers and 1 horseman start their advance. There's another 2 horseman mere turns away. To try and keep Osaka from flipping (and to defend it), I pop rushed a spearman in. Remaining population is Arabic.

Taian · September 19, 2003, 22:12

And finally, the homeland in 1250BC (before any moves)

Taian · September 19, 2003, 22:16

If I was to keep playing, I'm pretty sure the Japanese would be all gone in 10 turns or less. Then I was planning on turning my attention to the Americans since they're starting to get a little thick for their britches. But I can't tear into them before they get the Pyramids

Overall, I think it was a good block of turns. Sitting with 9 cities and on the way to Monarchy. Starting to churn out vet horsemen which will turn into nice little Ansars eventually. Plus, the first major skirmish with another civ on the continent turned out quite nicely, with the Arabs netting two intact cities. On the downside though, I don't follow RCP too well

So corruption may eventually be a problem. But since we're going for domintation, I'm not overly concerned. We should still be able to generate enough military to chew through anything in the way.

Finally, here's the save.

Theseus · September 19, 2003, 23:37

Everybody:

I am just back from being out with my work mates on a Friday night, so forgive me aforehand...

I opened MZ's save... I jumped to this thread to quickly comment... and then it hit me.

Sorry, everyone, but I just disagree.

Archers? Are we kidding ourselves?!! Given this map, and Japan and Carthage?!!

I don;t know if what I am doing totally f*cks up the AUSG concept, or if it provides further diversity...

But I'd like to create a new branch, Dom2, starting from my 1st block save.

Rhothy, feel free to shoot me down (you got this thing together, and it is thus your call).

I know I am throwing a huge wrench into the works... but with us in Dom NOT performing like the Opportunists (best play thus far, IMHO), we need to stick to our guns (pun intended), and ROCK the house / continent.

Of all players on all the teams, I set us up to do so... and I stand by it.

Camps? They're cool... but not at the cost of EMPIRE.

To MZ: I like your style, and totally respect you and your play, but as I opened your save, I just...

I would like to start a new team with the next block, if that is acceptable to all... I can play the next block this weekend, and then we will see whether there are others to join.

Sorry again if this intoduces any difficulties, or any hindrances. I think that most know my track record here... I wouldn't make this mark, I wouldn't make this POST, if I didn't truly stand by my stance.

Master Zen · September 20, 2003, 00:07

I understand Theseus, and also whatever decision Rhoth takes in regard. However, I'd just like to make a few points in my defense:

- Our objective is as quick a domination win as possible. That doesn't necessarily mean that to accomplish that we need to kill our immediate rivals as quick as possible. Timing is essential, and early warfare eventually leads to a tradeoff between growing your empire and spending on military. The use of camps was designed so that our wars, any of them, don't interupt with expansion and buildup.

- Our rivals are far away, true. One might see this as we need to get them before they expand. Another (me) might see this as, we can expand peacefully before we hit them. Remember, we're playing as Monarch, strategy changes as difficulty levels changes too. There's no way in hell either civ will outexpand us so there's nothing to worry in that sense.

- I would just like to stress that my style is based on momentum and balance. Image you are hurling a huge rock at your enemy. If the rock is too heavy and you are too weak, you will stumble or get hurt even if you do manage to kill the other guy. Because of that you won't be strong enough to hurl a larger rock later on. This means building up strength before you are ready to hurl. My plan was to hurl without even flinching. In the long run, as the building aspects of our empire were left undisturbed from the start we'd be in a much better position to take out Carthage (and don't tell me any one of you were planning to go after Carthage with horses)

- Finally, Taian has made it quite evident that it is possible to start warmongering with both the archers and the horses. He's got Japan permanently crippled. What could he have gained by doing it a few turns sooner? Not much if you ask me.

Well that's it, the defense rests

vmxa1 · September 20, 2003, 00:29

Well it is not my team or my call, but that does not mean I will not offer my .02

Theseus, why not just play it in your own thread. You can still play the teams game as the number of turns is small and will not take that much time? Then you can stick with your team and we can see your plan as well.
That is if Roth does not give you a green light to form up an additional team. Not of which is to say anything about either plan. I just would enjoy seeing both.

Rhothaerill · September 20, 2003, 01:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Everybody:

I am just back from being out with my work mates on a Friday night, so forgive me aforehand...

I opened MZ's save... I jumped to this thread to quickly comment... and then it hit me.

Sorry, everyone, but I just disagree.

Archers? Are we kidding ourselves?!! Given this map, and Japan and Carthage?!!

I don;t know if what I am doing totally f*cks up the AUSG concept, or if it provides further diversity...

But I'd like to create a new branch, Dom2, starting from my 1st block save.

Rhothy, feel free to shoot me down (you got this thing together, and it is thus your call).

I know I am throwing a huge wrench into the works... but with us in Dom NOT performing like the Opportunists (best play thus far, IMHO), we need to stick to our guns (pun intended), and ROCK the house / continent.

Of all players on all the teams, I set us up to do so... and I stand by it.

Camps? They're cool... but not at the cost of EMPIRE.

To MZ: I like your style, and totally respect you and your play, but as I opened your save, I just...

I would like to start a new team with the next block, if that is acceptable to all... I can play the next block this weekend, and then we will see whether there are others to join.

Sorry again if this intoduces any difficulties, or any hindrances. I think that most know my track record here... I wouldn't make this mark, I wouldn't make this POST, if I didn't truly stand by my stance.

Sigh, this puts me in a bit of a bind with a decision I don't really want to have to make. On the one hand Theseus wants to start a new team with his starting condition. That's a good thing as it will provide two different types of warmongering to compare between his thread and MZ's. But on the other hand, it sets a precedent. What if in the future someone else has a turn block they really like that isn't chosen? Will that person decide to form another team too? Or just quit if they aren't chosen? I really hope that doesn't happen as I think this is a fun game so far and I've really enjoyed all the DAR posts.

Okay in working my way through this I think I've hit on a solution that is both fair and doesn't alienate anyone.

In one of the original threads I said that anyone who wants to can play along with the game as a regular AU course as long as they don't post ahead of the turn blocks. Vmxa1 reiterated that in his post above. I don't want to be the "Hand of Fate" and tell you that you can't start a new team because this game is supposed to be both fun and informative like all AU games. So to that end I ask Theseus to play the current turn block with both his and MZ's games this week. We had talked about possibly forming a fourth team if we get enough people so Theseus if you can form a new team within the next week or two, preferably with players that aren't already part of an existing team, then I will be happy to start a 2nd domination team. If a new team isn't formed then I'd prefer if you continued as part of the current domination team and perhaps played your game as a standard AU game without forging too far ahead in your game.

If a new team is formed then we will have to adjust which team will discuss and vote for which team in the decision process. But that can be discussed later.

Okay, thoughts on this please. Like I said I don't want to be the "Hand of Fate" and hand down all the decisions. I'm open to any suggestions. This is a team game as much so as any democracy game.

EDIT: I like to keep the main AUSG101 thread open for the announcements and discussions. Please post any responses to this in that thread. Thanks.

Dominae · September 20, 2003, 01:59

Sorry, Theseus, but I disagree.

I see no reason to believe why your game is closer to the "spirit" of a Domination victory than anyone else's. If you do start another team, will all the members have to see eye to eye with you on how to do things? And if so, what will that do to the diversity that's creating so much good discussion?

This is not a format that lends itself well to looking at the "big picture". Why? Because each block is too short to make any real determination of which person is closer to the ultimate goal. With a super-peacful start, the Spaceship team may be closer to Domination than the Domination team is itself. The different goals of each team were just created to differentiate between them, not set a standard of rules to play by. If one player things that Archers is the way to rock this map...so be it!

Everyone needs to be allowed to "do their own thing" within each block. It may seem terribly unfair that the actual "best" block is not chosen in a given round, but that's all part of the fun. We're not actually trying to see how fast we can win this scenario, we're trying to teach and learn. And that involves accepting that the game we play will not be as "good" as we might think it could be.

This is not a Democracy Game where we're debating the best way to make our plays. Nor is it an AU scenario where each person has free reign to do what is best throughout the entire game. It's a game where you do the best you can with the save you're given, then give it up. Frankly, this is weird for me too; I'm quite glad that my save was picked on the first round! I know that I will probably disagree with some of the choices people will make in future blocks, but that's something I'll just have to live with.

Remember: winning (by Domination, or whatever) is not the real goal here. It should drive your turn play, but not your votes.

Dominae

TheArsenal · September 20, 2003, 02:02

First off, RL issues are getting in the way this weekend, but I didn’t want to skip this turn, so you may find the DAR will not be as detailed as it could be. That said, the exact build order of my cities and movement of my units are not as important as the end situation and overall strategy. You may have to download the game to get a complete picture.

2150 - 2070: Moved the settler northwest to settle into the “dip” in the X of the cultural border and settled Baghdad which is immediately put to building a barracks. Baghdad will be used as a Camp and its singular purpose will be to pump out veteran units. The Barbarian to the east moved to attack Medina, which was without a single unit. Sending the Archer from the capitol to kill the Barbarian, sent Mecca into revolt, which was restored within a single turn. I was running a deficit, so I brought the research slider down to 70%. I was researching Writing, which will then go to Horse Riding, followed by Literature. At this point, I will also begin producing the archers I will need for the eventual rush on America.

1950- 1700: Medina and Mecca are building Settlers. Sent one Settler escorted by an Archer to create Najran due south to settle in the cultural “dip”. Not particularly fond of using single fortified Archers to guard cities, but they were already constructed and I wanted to get cities put up fast. Set Najran’s production to building barracks. Like Baghdad, its single purpose will be to produce veteran units. The second Settler is sent straight for the Americans to settle Kufah directly on the iron. The Americans do me a favor by settling Atlanta to just south of the iron deposit and Kufah, making an attack by single movement units (Swordsman) viable. Workers set to building road to this city immediately. Mecca set to barracks. Establish embassies in both Japan and Carthage, hoping to hold them out of the war a few turns until I can take a small chunk out of America.

1550 - 1425: Demascus produces Settler, heads for horses between Medina and Kufah and settles Basra. This is where the 30 turns end.

TheArsenal · September 20, 2003, 02:03

Stats and Overview.

With a roaded city on the cultural border of America, and cities soon able to produce both the cheaper Archers and the more effective Swordsmen at a decent rate, I should be able to take at least two or three cities from America fairly quickly and still fortify the northern cities with a couple of Spearman against any possible Japanese aggression. I plan to create two stacks of units to attack both Atlanta and Boston simultaneously. Most of the stack (minus upgrading a Warrior) is in place over Atlanta. It is still early enough in the game that both cities should fall pretty quickly without using too many units. But a Scout sent quickly in and out to check would be best. The only downside is it is quite possible that Atlanta has no culture, and will go to a 1 pop prior to my attack and I will not gain a city and end up destroying it. Overall, and assuming I could sustain peace with Carthage and Japan, being able to take two or three cities from America quickly, then complete the job 20 turns later after suing for peace and building - or - waiting a while more before launching the initial attack and taking a substantial chunk out of America, should be more than feasible.

Mecca is building a Settler which I plan to settle send as far into the jungle choke point as possible depending on Carthage’s build pattern. I will eventually need the Spices, and want to be able to stop any Carthage incursions north either by Settler or Army. And as I am planning to go to war, I want to build cities away from possible fronts as not to waste units to over-fortify.

Overall, I feel I am in pretty good shape.

Cities: 7
Science: “We are advanced!” 70% Literature 6 turns
Units: 17, 2 Workers, 1 Scout, 3 Warriors (to be upgraded), 5 Archers, 1 Swordsman, 1 Horseman.

Again, this was written up pretty quickly, but hopefully gives a pretty clear picture.

TheArsenal · September 20, 2003, 02:05

And a glimpse at the military situation forming ( the Warrior in Basra and the stack will be upgraded). You will note that Swordsman are being built in most cities producing military units.

Dominae · September 20, 2003, 02:12

Another thought on Theseus' last post:

Are there meant to be rivalries between the various teams? I see no point in this. I think we can all learn/teach a great deal even if we're not playing the most UP-ish game of the three. The Opportunist team got off to a good start; there's no shame in the Domination team to be a little behind.

Now that I think of it, "opportunist" as a team goal seems a little odd. All other things being equal the Opportunist team will always be better than the other two teams, assuming they stick to their guns. If anyone agrees and has a problem with this, it's not too late to turn the Opportunist team into a "Culture" team. This way each team would have a very distinct and achievable goal, and there would be less reason to compare/compete between teams.

Dominae

Rhothaerill · September 20, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Another thought on Theseus' last post:

Are there meant to be rivalries between the various teams? I see no point in this. I think we can all learn/teach a great deal even if we're not playing the most UP-ish game of the three. The Opportunist team got off to a good start; there's no shame in the Domination team to be a little behind.

Now that I think of it, "opportunist" as a team goal seems a little odd. All other things being equal the Opportunist team will always be better than the other two teams, assuming they stick to their guns. If anyone agrees and has a problem with this, it's not too late to turn the Opportunist team into a "Culture" team. This way each team would have a very distinct and achievable goal, and there would be less reason to compare/compete between teams.

Dominae

Actually I don't think there should be any reason to "compete" between the teams anyway. I set this up as a learning tool as much as anything and I think that is what it is doing so far. The wide range of play from the same start shows that. I didn't want this to be a competition because it's not really in the "AU spirit". A while back in the threads that were determining the future of Apolyton University, a competition game was discussed and shot down with good reason. AU is for learning and that's what we do best. Let CFC have it's competition games.

I'm just as competitive as the next guy. When I'm in a competition I like to win. But this shouldn't be one.

Dominae · September 20, 2003, 08:11

I still like the idea of turning the Opportunist team into a Culture team. It's not too late, either!

Dominae