AUSG 101 - Domination Team DAR 2 - Page 2

alexman · September 20, 2003, 15:01

I don't think making another team is a good idea. If participation declines, we might not have enough people to keep all teams going.

By the way, as I said in my voting comments for DAR1, it looks to me that MZ's save allows more flexibility in strategy than Theseus' save. Just because you have a few Archers, doesn't mean you have to perform an Archer rush.

I know it's frustrating to have someone else's save being picked, because the plans you made in round 1 can no longer be executed in the same way. The save that was picked for the spaceship team is going about our goals in a very different way than I had planned, but that's OK. Too many of my games go as I have planned them in the first few turns, so there's a lot to be said about adapting to new situations and making them work.

vmxa1 · September 20, 2003, 15:09

All I wanted to say here is that I did not have any sense of competitiveness. I don't feel my team has to to the best or I have to be chosen. No one will remember after the game is over anyway. I think Theseus was just stoked up with the game situation he had.
It would be bad if it turns out that we have lots of the players go on their own, but one player is not a stampede. Lets see if we have a problem, before we get too excited.

Beta · September 20, 2003, 15:11

Abu-Bakr-Beta reporting in.

Aaaaargghhh - just wrote up my report, and attached a jpeg which was too large, and when I went to go back to resize, lost my report.

Anyways... as to Theseus' suggestion. I am easy. I understand his point somewhat. Maybe we need a domination team, and a NO GUTS, NO GLORY TEAM.

If so Rhoth, I am easy as to which I am on. Guess it does depend on how many folks join up.

As to my turn - I believe the deadline is Sunday evening, and as I am short time right now, I will post tomorrow.

cya

Konquest02 · September 20, 2003, 15:14

I don't think forming another team is a wise thing to do here. We're right at the right number of people and things are getting along pretty smoothly.

Nothing personnal here Theseus, but I think your demand is the exact opposite of what AUSG101 should be. We're still gonna win any (almost) save we pick and you know it. The goal here is not to win as fast as possible, but to make our best to improve our situation with each passing block. Starting another team because you do not feel that the save picked allowes us to win *enough* is something that you really shouldn't do.

Instead, put you talent in making MZ's save the best you can.

--Kon--

Theseus · September 20, 2003, 20:04

This my DAR using the MZ save.

Rather than go blow-by-blow, I amd going to keep it high-level.

I decided to go with the camp system and RCP in a BIG way!! I would build camps first and ASAP, all in a 2/2.5 ring, with as many keeper cities as I could fit into a second ring at 4/4.5 (although I later modified that plan slightly, due to terrain, accounting for the horse hill and not wanting to take the time to road it). See the X's; the two Y's I am unsure of, as the top one would put it into the first ring, but I much prefer the placement of the second (ignore the white Z... I was playing around with something and changed my mind). Obviously, one more city could be fit into the first ring to the north, but terrain prevails.

Why Basra most recently? I'd like to get two cities, with Spear defenders, at Mecca 9999 and 666 sort of concurrently. I'm not to worried about America building at the iron, as they will be getting mauled by Horse anyway.

I also wanted to take a militaristic stance, namely that there would be Archer attacks, Chariot attacks, Horse attacks, Sword attacks, etc. So, the camps were set to what they were good for, building a military.

Some Workers and Settlers have been interspersed, although most Settlers have come from Mecca... Medina, for instance, will build a Settler timed to 5 pop.

I am a big fan of MPs, so only Mecca would get a Temple to go with the granary... otherwise, I am using vet and reg Warriors as MPs, and I sent one vet Spear to the bottleneck. Barbs have not been an issue at all since the start of the block.

Those are slaves chopping below Kufah... they are timed to complete the chop 2 turns after the barracks, when a temple will be underway.

Theseus · September 20, 2003, 20:04

Japan is the first target. Why? Friggin' Sammies, that's why. I want us to try pruning up until Caravels, unless we see evidence that there might be Galley-enabled contact (including someone else building the GLight).

All Archers, 5 initially (3 vet and 2 reg), to the front. They were later followed by two replacements for the lost dead. I am just in the process of getting Chariots to the front, with one at 1hp under the Archer stack.

I went for, uh, whatever the middle Japanese city was. Why? I figured there'd be Settlers south of Kyoto... and there was! I had parked a Scout and a forward Archer on the two hills immediately south of Kyoto, and lo and behold, here comes a Settler / Warrior combo... BOP TO THE HEAD! That Archer, btw, recently fended off a Warrior.

I also wanted to destroy, uh, that city, and then swing back to Edo. No real interest in a capture... I'd rather build from scratch (although we have a definite lead in culture, due to the Temple in Mecca... no AI civ seems to have built one).

Theseus · September 20, 2003, 20:05

Production is pretty good... it's just that the damn AI civs are pretty worthless.

I've planted embassies in all three... the Pyramids and the Oracle will be ours.

Carthage is still isolated... I recently gifted them Polytheism, so we are even, but they have only 5 sorta crap cities (and 3 gems

). Even on techs with America, and they have iron and 1 fur. Japan is the only one to have HBR (for now), and has another city to the north, with no resources and 1 fur.

Depending on when we raze or capture Edo, and negotiate peace (and HBR) with Toku, I'd probably ratchet back research to pay for upgrades, and then go to town on Abe.

I haven;t done a lot of chops yet... 1) I'd rather save them for bigger projects, and 2) I've mostly been focused on getting key roads in place and shared food tiles improved.

Theseus · September 21, 2003, 12:56

Oops, forgot to include the save.

Theseus · September 21, 2003, 13:22

I played out from my save, and although Rhothy has been quite kind in providing me an opportunity to stick with that game, the difference in result does not merit dividing the team (in addition, I wouldn't want to go that route unless there was unanimous support).

Just for the record, though, it does play out better... although that may be because I'm playing on in my own style.

With 5 Horse, I razed Atlanta AND Philadelphia AND bopped a Settler / Worker team, losing 1 Horse along the way. The peace negotiation netted me Chicago (on the peninsula SE of the iron). So, America is basically toast. Japan has 6 cities, and is of course next on the hit parade

The major differences at 1250 BC: I have 9 cities, of which only two are camps (the original 3-tile cities)... everything except those two and Chicago are on a 4/4.5 ring (in the MZ version I have 7 cities of which 4 are camps). I have 580 gold, with 24gpt and Monarchy in 23 turns at 9.1.0. I am at parity with Japan and America, and ahead of Carthage by Polytheism... none of us has writing, so no embassies yet. I have 5 Horse, 8 Warriors, 1 Spear, 2 Scouts, 9 Workers, and 5 slaves.

Besides being in an overall better position, the thing that gets me when comparing the two games is Archers and Chariots... I still think they were a waste of time on this map given that I had Horsemen available in 2150 BC.

If anybody wants screenshots or the save, let me know.

Beta · September 21, 2003, 21:20

OK - here's my attempt.

I am pleased with it for two major reasons.

1. The city layout - I have four cities now in the first ring. And 3 in the second (5/5.5). And a fourth on the iron. I opted for a city over a colony on the iron for two reasons. First - the colony could be 'assimilated' by an American city, and second, the site ain't that bad given the lakes, and with one cultural expansion, enough tiles to make it work.

2. I am ready to warmonger. This should warm Theseus' heart. I opted for a strategy of cash accumulation and warrior production, so as you will see from the save, an initial force of 8 vet swordsmen (and one horseman) is about to descend on America. I picked them as the first target given their current standing. We can wrestle more out of them when we beat them up a bit.

Medina got into that nice groove where it could pump out a vet warrior every two turns. During the middle to late stages of the round, that is what it did,

So - here's the details.

The cities you can see from the map. The order was: (I think)

Baghdad, Najran, Basra, Kufah, Khurasan, and Anjar

The only major mistake I feel I made was letting Mecca drop to pop 1 with the last settler. I was concentratinfg so much on getting the swords set to go.

And - we do have 9 vet swordsmen, 8 of which are closing in on America. They are just north of Basra.

Also - 5 more warriors for upgrading.

3 spears, including one guarding the isthmus along with a scout. They have already turned back one Carthaginian settler, who opted instead to settle Hippo.

3 archers - used mostly for barb control earlier on.

1 vet horseman, with more following shortly.

Barracks in Medina (from earlier), plus Najran and Damascus.

6 workers - with a long list of terrain improvements ahead of them.

Khurasan to be connected shortly with its luxury. Which is now needed, especially by Medina.

Also - potential 5/5.5 city sites remaining - (1) south next to the game, (2) NW, north of the horses, (3) west on the coastal tile (1-1 of the horses), and (4) 8-8-8-9 from Mecca. This will put 7 cities in the second ring, and create a very solid base from which to operate.

1790 - got 25 gold and HBR from Tokugawa for IW and Alpha. Sold HBR to Hannibal fro 25 gold. (At this point I was already thinking gold accumulation.)

Can't recall that I did any other trades.

1600 - Lincoln wanted contact with Carthaginians. Uh, no.

After writing, researched mathematics, then went to 30% research rate on code of laws. Cash accumulation was the priority. Still leading in research - but about to accumulate it via other means.

Upgraded 8 warriors about 3 turns back, and they are now on their way. "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!"

More warriors and horsemen to follow. The general game plan is to send the swordsmen via Basra, and the horsemen to go north and overland.

After paring back America, we will turn our sights on Japan.

Beta · September 21, 2003, 21:22

The picture:

Beta · September 21, 2003, 21:24

The save:

Theseus · September 21, 2003, 23:34

Well played, Beta.

Hmmm... I am so constitutionally attuned to 3-tile placement that going all the way out to 5-tile was tough for me... it is, however, probably better if using a camp strategy.

Have you attacked anyone yet? I think no... so your first will be with Swords?

Master Zen · September 22, 2003, 00:40

whoa, I have never actually placed 4 camps around a single city!

But those 9 sworsemen!

Konquest02 · September 22, 2003, 08:24

I may not have the time to play this one, as my free time is currently very limited by school... However, I will do anything to get it done by tonight...

--Kon--

Beta · September 22, 2003, 08:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Well played, Beta.

Hmmm... I am so constitutionally attuned to 3-tile placement that going all the way out to 5-tile was tough for me... it is, however, probably better if using a camp strategy.

Have you attacked anyone yet? I think no... so your first will be with Swords?

The way I see it is that the outer ring are 3 tiles away from the inner ring. Also - using MZ's save from the first round, the first ring was committed. I do not see them as 'camps'. In the longer term, as long as each city uses 'outer' tles, all the cities should work fairly well. That was another reason for moving the outer ring out to the 5/5.5 spacing.

I think Mecca will need to be a feeder city for quite awhile yet, to fuel continued expansion.

And no, other than a few barbs (with no promotions

), we have not attacked anyone yet. If this save is chosen, that will change in 4 moves. I plan on starting with the second American City in, and letting reinforcements take the most southerly city.

alexman · September 22, 2003, 10:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
whoa, I have never actually placed 4 camps around a single city!

Or you can just treat Mecca as the single (settler+worker) temporary camp and leave the 2-ring cities there forever. I like it!

Beta · September 22, 2003, 10:42

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman

Or you can just treat Mecca as the single (settler+worker) temporary camp and leave the 2-ring cities there forever. I like it!

That's what I was thinking as well. The only downside is that you do not have the capital uber-city thing going. But then again, we are warmongers. Culture and stuff are for wusses.

Our philosophy:

Luxuries and happiness - by conquest.
Culture - by conquest.
Science - by conquest.
Land - by conquest.
Victory - by conquest.

Master Zen · September 22, 2003, 11:36

the way the city was managed, it never needs more than 4 tiles to get the 7 turn settler/spears. Looks real good Beta

Theseus · September 22, 2003, 20:17

Some thoughts:

* Long-term, we are prolly going to head south with slowmovers (LB and MedInf) and take on Japan and America with fastmovers (Horse and AW). Carthage needs to be denied iron, so that the likely GA will result in Archers (GL generators) and NMs. Japan needs to be denied horses (if not existence) prior to Chivalry.

* Until (and if) we control the GLight, we will want to maintain our rep.

* Economic development should be more critically examined in selecting the block winner. This includes CP and #, of course, but also the road network and number of high-value / shared tiles improved.

* We need to discuss our overall objective, as has been touched on in some of the other threads. Domination win ASAP? Ultimate Power? Or how about some sort of style... Ghenghis Khan and Caesar come to mind

. I personally plan on being a right bastard, albeit within the rep rules. Also, remember that Rhothy has something up his sleeve... we have been set up with a KAI (I believe), namely the Black Land, which will make an IC invasion, uh, interesting.

Now a question:

Both Beta and I have executed a 2 tile, 4 camp plan (I pondered 6!). We are both also following that with strict RCP placement, with me at 4 tile and Beta at 5.

alexman suggested treating the CAPITOL as a camp, leaving the remaining city rings, and this got me thinking...

WTF happens to RCP when you move the Palace? Whether by abandoning a capitol surrounded by camps, or just down the road, when we have an FP in place and might want to start using the Palace proactively, doesn;t this whole system go to hell in a handbasket?

Doesn;t this then mean that EVERY city needs to be placed with the FP in mind and an eventual relo of the Palace?

Beta · September 22, 2003, 20:52

Yup - but why would we move the palace. We will have a very nice 12 city set-up, with some out-lying cities (the iron city, one on the chokepoint to carthage etc).

We then need to decide wher our next hub goes (hint - hint - Rockets red glare, though bombs bursting in air )

As to overall objective. I say pound America back to a small and submissive state. Then - yes - lets make sure Japan is either really very small or non-existant prior to chivalry.

And that takes us to Lego - er sorry - Carthage. We will have had them bottled up. They may get a city or two planted by galley. But then we descend on them with the might of Mecca and wish they were never born. (Timing yet to be determined - but stay tuned.)

To this end - I feel we should get a city on the choke point during the next round. Build walls. Firm it up a bit.

OK - Theseus - as to a long long long term objective - I am open. I like keeping the small civs around as vassals, only if it makes sense. Otherwise we bop them and take the land.

And btw - I agree about maintaining our rep. But that doesn't mean we can't legitimately squash someone.

Beta · September 22, 2003, 20:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

* Economic development should be more critically examined in selecting the block winner. This includes CP and #, of course, but also the road network and number of high-value / shared tiles improved.

And yes - agreed completely. This afterall - is our source of power. I would add number of workers to your list.

alexman · September 22, 2003, 21:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
We need to discuss our overall objective, as has been touched on in some of the other threads. Domination win ASAP? Ultimate Power? Or how about some sort of style... Ghenghis Khan and Caesar come to mind

I asked this question in the main thread, and the answer is that all teams are trying to pursue the target victory condition ASAP.

Quote:

WTF happens to RCP when you move the Palace?

RCP matters only around your palace. There is a bug in the rank calculations for cities closer to the Forbidden Palace than the Capital. For any such city, the rank is given by the number of cities that are closer to the Capital than that city is to the Forbidden Palace.

This means that you can have ICS around your FP and get away with corruption corresponding to the looser city placement around your Palace!

The current RCP around your Palace is all you need to get an early boost in production. When you jump the Palace to an AI core, the looser city spacing will continue to give you low corruption around your FP, even if there is no more RCP!!

Theseus · September 22, 2003, 22:08

Doesn;t that get screwed the moment a second city, captured or built, is near you new Palace?

alexman · September 22, 2003, 22:35

Say the closest city to your Palace is 4 tiles away (very common if you jump your Palace to an AI core).

Then all your cities with distance less or equal to 4.5 from your FP will have rank 1! This could be several cities if you have a dense build around the FP.

Again, in typical AI city placement, say that you have 4 cities with distance less than 8 from your new Palace. That means that all cities with distance between 4.5 and 7.5 from your FP will have rank 5. This could be LOTS of cities in a tight build around the FP.

You can see that with a Palace jump to an AI core, you get RCP levels of corruption without actually having RCP anywhere (provided you have a denser build around your FP than you do around your Palace).

Edit: Stepping back for a moment, I'm beginning to remember why I gave myself the "corruption nazi" nickname. Sorry!!

Master Zen · September 22, 2003, 23:11

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Edit: Stepping back for a moment, I'm beginning to remember why I gave myself the "corruption nazi" nickname. Sorry!!

If you're a corruption nazi in RL too then I could probably find you a job in Mexico City

Theseus · September 22, 2003, 23:56

Sorry, I may a bit slow on the uptake.

Any city at equal or less corruption distance from the Palace (including .5), when compared to the FP... gets 1st ring corruption?

OK. Two problems:

1) Obviously, taken IC cities may exist too near the new Palace. So, abandon them ASAP?

2) There is still something I am not getting about RCP... does it more or less preclude a Palace move? If so, it's strength is weakend in my mind.

alexman · September 23, 2003, 00:20

No problem, it's not an easy concept. Fortunately, RCP and the FP rank bug will be fixed in Conquests.

1) Taken cities from the AI are usually far enough from the Palace to give a corruption benefit to many of your FP cities. Abandoning the closest ones to the Palace will help even more, yes. In the limit, if you have your Palace on the moon, and all your other cities on Earth, all your cities will have rank 1 corruption.

2) RCP gets screwed up if you move your Palace, unless:
a) you have RCP around your new palace (not likely),
or
b) city spacing around the new Palace is such that RCP around your FP is no longer relevant. In this case you don't get the benefits of RCP, but you get the benefits of the FP rank bug.

So, the way I see it, RCP is a trick to get an early-game boost. After that, you have two options:
1) Use a leader to build the FP far away and keep the Palace, to continue to take advantage of the RCP.
2) Build the FP in your original core and jump the Palace to take advantage of the FP rank bug.

Both these approaches are comparable in the resulting corruption of your empire (depending on the density of your new Palace core), but the Palace jump has the advantage of not requiring a leader.

vmxa1 · September 23, 2003, 00:43

Can you tell again, what exactly is meant by the FP rank bug? I have seen the term, but am not sure I know what it means.

alexman · September 23, 2003, 00:55

Sure:

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
RCP matters only around your palace. There is a bug in the rank calculations for cities closer to the Forbidden Palace than the Capital. For any such city, the rank is given by the number of cities that are closer to the Capital than that city is to the Forbidden Palace.