Combined diplomatic thread --Direction needed

Flubber · September 21, 2003, 13:56

Having met 4 factions, diplomacy will be busy -- There has been a lot of commentary in various threads but I wanted to combined the discussion here with all the pending deals

Drones -- just met them-- EDIT-- welcoming message sent offering treaty and possibility of trade.

Hive -- offered any 2 of app physics, doc loyalty or biogenetics fro doc flex -- we refused at this time
-- they then offered app physics for doc mob-- trade is pending a decision

PUT-- offered eth calc for doc flex-- I refused it thinking we could get eth calc from the cyco and asked for genesplicing-- They have now offered SOTHB-- response pending

Cycon-- they owe us a level 2 tech from previous dealings. . . they want doc flex for a future tech to be named later or 80 ec. Their position is that both AI have this tech so the price should be cheap

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I think the doc flex cat is out of the bag and with us finding the drones in a unity foil . . . its even more important to trade.

I propose I immediately do the following

1. Welcome the drones and offer trades and treaty
2. Call the put back and say that the situation has changed and we wish to get eth calc from them-- straight trade.

3. Accept the cycons tech for tech deal but with the condition that they must switch into techs we do not have until we are paid back the techs we are owed. The mortgage on flex applies until we are paid back

4. accept the Hives offer of doc loyalty and app physics-- do this one in a turn or two so as to coincide with any trades with the drones. NO policy for 5 years

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The idea here is that we have just made a discovery so none of this will affect our tech rate for quite some time. WE will garner at LEAST 4 techs for doc flex plus whatever I can garner from the drones. WE will also have a couple of techs -- for trade bait to get a few more trades in before the meetings start happening. happen

foolish_icarus · September 21, 2003, 15:24

go for it.

Atlantian · September 21, 2003, 18:30

looks good

Hercules · September 21, 2003, 20:10

As I mentioned in the turn report, The Drones do not have Doc: Flex. They must have got a unity pod from a pod pop or as a starting unit (unlikely). It has 2 MP and has a scout on board. At the time we met it was 12/13 Mp from Roze or the PUT. Even if they meet Roze soon she might hesitate to trade Doc:Flex.

Hercules · September 21, 2003, 20:38

We also need to be a bit quick with Doc:Mob unless the 5 year restriction also applies to that tech otherwise they'll be tempted to trade it to the Drones.

Our next turn will be MY2137 so when do we release the techs. Doc Mob we can trade in 2137 to the Hive and the Drones(though I am not sure what the Drones can offer back. I suppose we'll find out: maybe ecs or a promise on future tech.

Hercules · September 22, 2003, 08:41

This from Ambassador Crimson Sunrise

Trade between PEACE and University

Honored Cap'n Hercules,

I must contact you with the details of negotiations between our two factions, as the honored
Ambassador Flubber's private messaging is unavailable, and I am unable to avail myself of his
electronic mail via the Apolyton server.

Ambassador Flubber has correctly surmised that we are currently unable to trade Gene Splicing, due
to technical problems. However, Ethical Calculus is still very much available, should you be
interested.

We have also noted the Hive's recent completion of two secret projects. Although we do not
currently have a concrete long-term policy towards the Hive, that faction has been much
mentioned of late in Faculty discussions.

Regards,

Ambassador Crimson Sunrise
Department of Foreign Affairs
Planet University of Technology

Hercules · September 22, 2003, 08:47

This my reply: essentially a warm, friendly but holding message.

Trade between PEACE and University

Respected Ambassador Crimson Sunrise. Thank you for your Communication. I will post it in our forum for
Ambassador Flubbers attention. In deed his PM seems to filled/ overflowing. I will get him to contact you. From
the discussions just recently on the techs you have to offer, I believe there was feeling that the tech trade for
Ethical Calculus was being looked upon favourably.

I would expect Ambassador Flubber to be in contact very soon regarding the exact details of a trade.

Btw is Gene Splicing the tech you are currently researching. If so there might be the prospect of future trades.
If not we would be interested in what you are researching with a view to co-ordinating research programmes or
exchange.

We too have noted the Hive's achievements and like you, have not formulated a long term policy.

Flubber · September 22, 2003, 12:23

PUT--- GOOD -- I propose we make the trade with the PUT-- timing to be determined

DRones-- mongoose indicated he is no longer acting as ambassador and has forwarded my message to buster

Maniac-- I sent a message inquiring if doc flex for nonlin would be possible-- I presented it as tech for tech and having no effect on the owed tech from the ind auto deal. I also indicated that doc flex should go to them the turn before they would discover it so we could get our tech back immediately, avoiding any questions of valuing getting a tech earlier.

Hive -- no further contacts-- there offer seemed to be a standing one and it would take the cycon and put time to find them anyway

johndmuller · September 22, 2003, 14:30

Trading Doc:Flex for Ethical Calc with the PUT is fine with me; I presume that there will be some attempt to embargo its retrading, whether by just asking for it, offering a similar embargo on the EthCalc, paying something extra (like 20 PoE), agreeing to a Pact, or whatever. So far, they seem to be much more reasonable about things than our supposed buddies, the Borg; so I wouldn't really be disappointed if improved relations with the PUT soured our relations with the Borg (we are not, after all, under any obligation with the Borg to dislike the PUT), as they do not seem to me to be doing all that well anyway, making them not so great an ally. If we don't pact with the PUT, we should probably infiltrate them next, if for no other reason than to know for sure how well they are doing.

It will be interesting to see if the Borg are willing to do the NonLinear.

WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT (DEFENSIVE) PROBES.

Hercules · September 22, 2003, 18:19

Cap'n Hercules sits down with Psi Nuke parrot on shoulder (to show no worries about radiation) and awaits feedback to Cap'n Flubbers bottles and emissary pigeons.

He hopes that the good ship PMS Tiger Shark is successful in probing Miriam soon, survives and returns to a port near a research faction.

Flubber · September 22, 2003, 20:00

Quote:

Originally posted by johndmuller
WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT (DEFENSIVE) PROBES.

I agree-- an infantry probe in every base or our tech lead won't be worth crap-- its hard to defend seabases against proberape but we should be scouting aggressively and have a minimum one defender in each base-- The upside is that they will need to hide numerous probeships to proberape us and those will be expensive-- I am thinking about a thread on some sort of SEafarers code in the general forum. In general, I don't want a probeship within 4 tiles of any of our bases and we will send any such probes home.

As for retrading . . . I had hoped to trade the crap out of doc flex ASAP anyway-- it would take the UNiversity a turn to build a boat and then at least 4 or 5 to find anyone that doesn't already have the tech.

With BOTH AI's having the tech I don't see much point in delaying the trading much further. The we should soon be selling commlinks-- I'm thinking of offering to sell the cycon and the PUT each others commlinks-- hoping to get paid twice for it-- I would hold off on the Hive/drone links for a while but I do want to get in ahead of them meeting each other

foolish_icarus · September 23, 2003, 01:03

concerning the commlinks- Do we want to hold out on trading them in the hopes that we can gain a planetary governor nomination, or do we write that off and get what we can for the comms before the other facs meet?

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 02:36

Quote:

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
concerning the commlinks- Do we want to hold out on trading them in the hopes that we can gain a planetary governor nomination, or do we write that off and get what we can for the comms before the other facs meet?

With our current 4th place standing, an inability to pull an easy pop boom, and the Hive rapidly growing, I highly doubt we will be a candidate in the first round of governor voting . .. . The drones have a unity foil and two factions already have doc flex so the election will be called within 15 years IMHO-- I can't realistically see how we will be in governorship range unless we manage a major conquest in that time ( not possible)

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 15:42

Latest news

The cycon will give us HEC as their next discovery if we give them DOC FLEX immediately. They did not want to get nonlinear for us. They are still offering to sell it for 80 or 90 ec but again it must be immediate.

They seem to be impatient and have indicated that doc flex pre-accepted on their next turn is a necessary condition of any deal. Other wise they say they will buy doc flex from the AI.

I expressed dismay at this position and stated I would seek instructions.

personally I see two choices

1. tell them to buzz off-- we are tired of their unbalanced dealings-- result: we get nothing from doc flex from them but they still do owe us a tech-- I believe they will go for eth calc if they are not bound otherwise

2. Make the cash deal and tie that into them going for HEC to complete the old deal

Although my total frustration with them makes me like the idea of option 1, they probably will get Doc flex from the AI this turn anyway so we might as well trade to them and get something back.

Hercules · September 23, 2003, 19:03

Regretably I am inclined to agree with going for a variation of option 2, I prefer a tech back later, rather than 80 ecs now. Which I suppose is their original offer.

But have they accepted the 5 year no trade Doc:Flex deal. If no, then we might want to reconsider.

I asked before, will the AI trade with them. They(Cycon) indicated they didn't before because they didn't have the ecs. Now they do have the ecs. So? What's the odds on the AI trading.

If it comes to it I prefer delivering the tech by trading for HEC, this will also make them speed up to get rid of their obligation.

How important is getting HEC to us, in a specific timeframe.

johndmuller · September 23, 2003, 19:05

Are you saying that they want the Doc:Flex now and will give us the HEC in 5 years or whenever (no deadline?), plus still owe us a tech and with nothing binding on them for that delivery either? That would be 10 or 15 years more float for the payoff on the IndAuto deal as well as the 5 plus years float they want on this one - that's well over 20 years of float (counting what they've already had). Surely they are not that intractable - or are they playing the Suicide Pact role over there.

If there is anything still on the table from them to make it less odious, please fill us in.

If that's it, I'm also P!$$ed off and leaning toward letting them get Doc:Flex however the &*$&# they can and cutting our losses to just the remainder of the float from the IndAuto. OTOH, being able to direct their research to anything, even HEC (rather than our suggestion of NonLinear), would be helpful in the global context, as you say they will otherwise (redundantly) research EhicalCalc, wasting the research points; unfortunately, we only collectively gain from avoiding redundancy, not we Pirates specifically. If they research EthicalCalc after getting Flex (whether from us or from the AI) and we have meanwhile decided to get the EthCalc from the PUT, then our IndAuto payback would be further postponed - In that case, I would be in favor of just stealing techs from them whenever possible for the rest of the game rather than attempting to work with them in the trade market.

I think you should probably start a poll or polls, setting forth whatever options you think are possible for trading and whatever alternative actions you see.

I'm not sure that I have all the details of the various trade possibilities with the other factions, but I think you said we can get AppPhys and Loyalty from the Hive and EthicalCalc from the PUT. Presumably we can get something useful from the Drones too. It is true, is it not, that the Borg do not have contact with any of the other human factions?

Just so we can figure the big picture, could you set out the possible deals with all the factions here in one post.

Presumably you can stall the Borg at least another of their turns, while we decide what to do. If they wish, are able and actually do make the deal with the AI before then, so be it, it will only be another insulting gesture and what's one more insulting gesture among such friends. Meanwhile, we can check with the other factions and/or figure out what we want to do with the Borg. Perhaps we could bribe Roze &/or Miriam to be their enemies, scotching their deals and also giving them something else to worry about.

We seem to be heading for a confrontation with the Borg, let's keep that in mind in our builds and plans; I was only half kidding in my post about splitting them up with the PUT.

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 19:11

They have always accepted a mortgage on the tech until it is paid for . . . years no trade would probably be irrelevant given that they would take that long to meet anyone most likely anyway

Hercules · September 23, 2003, 19:23

In the meantime at this point in time what are the PUT up to. The prospect of us obtaining Eth Calc may influence the Borg in some fashion.

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 19:25

Johnd

all the possible trades are in the first post in this thread

The cycon are adamant that if we want a tech we will have to live with one later with no other compensation. They seem certain they can buy doc flex next turn and seem to not want ANY more stalling. I indicated that this form of tech trade is unfair but they seem not to care at all ( at least maniac doesn't). His position is that he can buy it cheap so we have no bargaining power. There seems to be no concern for future relations.

They are offering a tech now if we want one they already have but thats just app physics and biogen IIRC . . .and we should be able to pick those up cheap anytime or simply just bypass them.

I have been tempted to tell them to buzz off but I would rather get the ecs for ourselves than see them go to the AI-- I asked a point of clarification in that if we sold doc flex would they head immediately to HEC on the tech switch. That way we get energy credits and HEC in abouout 5 or 6 and then no longer have an indefinite obligation floating out there.

AS to general cycon relations, I find them impossible and have sent a preliminary unofficial message to the UNiversity inquiring if they would favor a pact. The idea is that if their ambassador has any interest, weoll our respective memberships . . . WE could start thinking about making them our foremost allies .

I think it remains marginally in our interest to do this deal-- Bottom line is that I believe they could most likely get flex from the AI-- BUT no favors for them ever-- strictly TOTAL self interest from now on-- IF we can screw them to the wall we do so

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 20:06

Maniac indicates a favorable view to the ec for doc flex-- ( I would ask 90 since he said 80 or 90) with them choosing HEC as their next research target to pay us back from the prior deal

OUr options

1. tell them to bug off-- I have no leverage to force what they research to pay us back from the prior deal
2. Give doc flex now for HEC(in about 6 turns) and still have them owe us a tech
3. Accept ecs for doc flex and get HEC ( in about 6 turns)

The tone of the most recent maniac message was much more conciliatory although their position did not soften. At least he is trying to be diplomatic now-- His arguments have some merit

Flubber · September 23, 2003, 20:08

UPDATE the university has approved doc flex for eth calc and we can trade at our convenience-- I leave it to the operations fols as to when that is-- we could delay a turn I guess but then I would feel I have to give a reason if we delayed further

johndmuller · September 23, 2003, 20:20

Selling Doc:Flex to them for 90 and getting the HEC for the outstanding debt seems the best deal we can hope for without calling their bluff or otherwise telling them where to go. It also gets us even with them so that these outstanding deals are no longer a hostage for our good behavior with them. I don't know whether or not we need any embargo time here, but you could always try to stipulate that they still can't retrade until they get back to even, techwise. If you don't want to haggle over it (thinking it doesn't matter) or if they balk, then hopefully we can dispose of it to the other factions soon enough that we will not be undercut by them in any case.

Hercules · September 23, 2003, 21:05

Do what they did to us: quote percent outcomes.

And poll options to arrive at those outcomes. Also the retrade restriction condition is a must.

At this moment I am inclined to call the bluff. Advise them if they refuse and they are unsuccessful with the AI we will not enter into future negotiations on Doc: Flex, they can discover it themselves It will cost them 100ecs if they succeed or lost years researching due to their unPACT like behaviour.

They know we have met the PUT and they will know we have met the Hive and presumably the Drones.

Indicate that because of our PACT relationship with them we are keen to trade with them FIRST (hinting our trading negotiations with others).

Re the PUT I'll aim for delivery 2138

Makahlua · September 24, 2003, 11:27

Wait a minute. We -do- have leverage.....the Pact itself! You could tell them that we feel they are not living up to the spirit of our Pact, even while obeying it's letter, and that we feel their rather mercenary and undermining attitude is making us think seriously on wether this pact is such a good thing after all.

Too belligerent?

Flubber · September 24, 2003, 12:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Makahlua
Wait a minute. We -do- have leverage.....the Pact itself! You could tell them that we feel they are not living up to the spirit of our Pact, even while obeying it's letter, and that we feel their rather mercenary and undermining attitude is making us think seriously on wether this pact is such a good thing after all.

Too belligerent?

I have done that very type of thing. What they say back is that if we are friends to them, we

a) wouldn't mind giving them Doc flex now so they can get a navy going even if they can't pay a tech back for a few turns and

b) we should sell them doc flex for a little less than the AI would sell it

I have mentioned good relations and that we have felt hard done by in the previous trades. They indicate that they feel we won both those trades and they are determined not to pay any more than market price for doc flex ( ie what the AI will sell it for).

FlameFlash · September 26, 2003, 10:37

I don't care, my thought is tell them that we will accept trading 90 ecs for Doc Flex on the turn that they discover and send us both the 90 ecs for Doc Flex and HEC (we don't have that, right?)

In that way everything would be equal, and justify it by saying that they get two turns in two turns and then their debt to us is paid off.

FlameFlash · September 26, 2003, 10:38

Otherwise we need to threaten to start charging them for their lack of good faith in their tech trade agreement with us and start demanding reparations for it.

We need to get some Impact foils and infantry soon and fast, we may need to go to war with the AIs to really beef up our power and then tack out the cycon if they continue to mislead us and mistreat us.

Hercules · September 27, 2003, 18:22

Ss you know, I asked for feedback by 13.00 on the 26th because I was going to be away for approx 36 hrs from that time. I checked the comms links box for all the factions. Nothing seemed finalised. From the Borg I had an negotiating position of 75ecs offered. However by the deadline I had no indication that any deals had been concluded. I played the turn.

In the meantime Maniac has PMed about noticing our (my) playing the turn.

I think myself or Flubber should explain those circumstances and also about a poll pending on the original offer: ie (a) 90ecs for tech or (b) tech for tech and that the new proposal regarding 75 ecs hadn't been widely circulated or discussed and we were in mid poll.

Ok I think we are ready to trade Doc: Flex and this can be advised to the other factions.

Regarding the Borg who still insist they can obtain it from the AI this turn without needing to trade with
us, we(I) need to explain the circumstances.

In the end what are we trading: 90ec, 75ecs and repay, or tech for tech? and one delayed.

As a result of all this confusion, Doc:Flex is not on its way to any faction this turn. Nor is Doc Mob. So I think we now need to agree timings and delivery to the factions. Btw most factions appear not to concerned, our only difficulty may be, I'll let You guess.

johndmuller · September 27, 2003, 20:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Hercules
...
As a result of all this confusion,... our only difficulty may be, I'll let You guess.

So you're confused, but you're gonna 'let us guess'

. (My guess is the Borg, BTW; do I get a prize?)

How do you think we all get confused?

I think we need a well defined place to look for the latest word on the diplomacy, and/or more frequent diplomatic reports. I know that there is often nothing happening, but that is a piece of (sometimes missing) info as well.

As for me, I don't really like the Borg low-balling us on the amount of PoE's, but at least they didn't go all the way down to 70.

Flubber · September 28, 2003, 11:50

WE lost internet access at work so I had no idea the turn had come around and was unable to respond.

The deals offered were pretty clear . . .

The 75 POE was offered

a) as the first part of 90 they were willing to spend on doc flex OR
b) to be loaned to us until they could repay us by completing HEC if we wnated a tech for flex

If we lose the deal, I take some responsibility since I was not online but at the same time, the poll results were available and the deal offered was pretty clear. I don't see any problem with the turn player looking at those things and completing the approved deal even in the ansence of my immediate feedback