Combined diplomatic thread --Direction needed

[Flubber]

Originally posted by johndmuller


I think we need a well defined place to look for the latest word on the diplomacy, and/or more frequent diplomatic reports. I know that there is often nothing happening, but that is a piece of (sometimes missing) info as well.

.

I post all significant events on this board as soon as they happen. I tried separate threads for our dealings with each faction but found that that was confusing as people would make all sorts of general comments in the specific thread. Now there is only one diplomacy thread except for the specific poll thread for the cycon doc flex trade.

I don't know what else you can expect-- I posted the cycon deals available and we have poll results indicating the faction's choice. I alos posted a deal with the university which I thought was pretty clear

[Flubber]

For clarity

DIPLOMATIC UPDATE


1. Drones-- no response to my messages-- I emailed mongoose who indicated that buster handled diplomacy and the email had been forwarded. I have since PM'd buster at CGN without a response

2. Cycon-- the poll thread contains all that had been offered

3.UNiversity-- we are agreed on doc flex for eth calc-- I just need the operations people to complete it--They are also interested in pact. I will start a thread on this topic.

4. Hive -- They have offered any two of app physics, biogenetics and doc loyalty for doc flex-- When I hesitated they offered app physics for doc mob straight up-- I continue to stall sice I want to get the drones talking before trading either of these techs-- The plan is to get something from each the hives and the drones for doc flex and doc mob


Thats it

[Hercules]

Ok that's clear.

For the University, (PUT) we will trade Doc:Flex our next turn. If they have pre accepted Ethical Calculus we will accept/pre accept Doc: Flex. If they still have negotiation status, we will still accept/pre-accept Doc:Flex.

All other factions no deal yet.

[Hercules]

I have just now read Flubbers post. I think the circumstances need to be explained to the Borg as to why nothing happened.

Secondly as we now want to trade (possibly Pact with the PUT), I think it is important we are able to say that we offered/traded Doc:Flex to our Pact partners first.

[Hercules]

BTW I am not being critical. I had a genuine reason for the non trading. It effected more than one faction. I feel we are now ready to conclude a deal with the Borg for Doc:Flex.

[FlameFlash]

I agree... let's hope that Buster responds to our hails soon or else that will leave the Hive probably trading with them.

Likewise I agree with the Doc Mob & Doc Flex deal to get those three techs from the Hive.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Hercules
BTW I am not being critical. I had a genuine reason for the non trading. It effected more than one faction. I feel we are now ready to conclude a deal with the Borg for Doc:Flex.

and I was not attempting to be critical of you . . I was offline for a while and you had a decision to make when facing time constraints.


I will be offline for the next 8 hours so pergaps you herc can call up maniac and see if we wtill have a deal

[Hercules]

This to Prime function Mani- Alpha- 3

Greetings Prime Function Mani -Alpha -3.

Ambassador Flubber has asked me to contact you due his being off line
for the next 8 hours.

In fact it was because of his work internet access having gone awol that
we had a small breakdown in communications. First I was going to be
absent for 36 hours approx so I asked for views and comments by 13.00
deadline on Friday 26th so that I could play the turn, otherwise it
would be delayed for that 36 hr period of time.

I received some feedback from fellow pirates on moves and builds but
nothing from Flubber.

We had initiated a poll earlier on the choices including a straight ecs
for tech deal and the tech for tech deal. It was fairly even, at the
time. However before the poll was closed Flubber indicated in the thread
that you had been in contact re a new 75ec offer/loan deal.

If his connection had not failed, no doubt he would have elaborated on
the specifics but as it was it created a degree of uncertainty as to
what had been concluded. Personally I thought Flubber was hammering out
a deal in the background.

This combination of factors meant I was unsure what the offer was. and I
also ran out of time. As you know well I usually am prepared to delay a
little, even if it does annoy the Hive and others.

So my apologies if this delay has caused further confusion.

Also I would not be contacting you directly if not for Ambassador
Flubbers suggestion I contact due to his present unavailability.

What I can say is the Doc:Flex is here sitting ready to go to you this
turn. We just need to finalise agreement. Ambassador Flubber mentioned
that the 75 ecs were for us to make use off, until HEC was delivered and
then would be returned to you. Is that a correct understanding.

Cap'n Hercules

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Flubber
I post all significant events on this board as soon as they happen. I tried separate threads for our dealings with each faction but found that that was confusing as people would make all sorts of general comments in the specific thread. Now there is only one diplomacy thread except for the specific poll thread for the cycon doc flex trade.

I don't know what else you can expect-- I posted the cycon deals available and we have poll results indicating the faction's choice. I alos posted a deal with the university which I thought was pretty clear

All in one thread (more or less like this one, but definitely timestamped) was what I was suggesting, preferably without much discussion from the rest of us (except maybe requests for clarifications). A format like your post following the one I quoted, where each factions status is summarized, with links to any other threads where the specifics might be located, ie like the threads dealing with specific factions. This way, we could look 'here' if this thread is the one, for a summation, without having to figure out whether or not the info is current or superceded by some other thread and look at the more specific threads for background and detail and the bulk of the discussion. I don't thinnk this would be too much work, if it is, please suggest some other format that you think would be better. It would of course, require some cooperation from the rest of us to honor the system, but I think it could work.

[Flubber]

No your format suggestion makes sense and is within what I can do pretty easily.

I will create a thread where I just edit the first post with the current diplomatic status , maybe I can ask someone to "top" the thread so I don't have to bump it.

So there will be a single up to date summary thread with concise info and other threads where things get hashed out reported and discussed.

I will do this ( tomorrow) -- Late here now-- very long day

[johndmuller]

That sounds fine, Cap'n Flubber, and if you keep the latest status at the beginning of the thread, then it won't get obscured by whatever discussion ends up going in there (which will at least have the effect of bumping the thread anyway).

[johndmuller]

Well I guess the various communication snafu's ended up with them deciding to get it on their own (unless we made a deal and the mention of it actually happening is hidden in the middle of some thread or other). If indeed they acquired it on their own, then we obviously have no say in their use of it, so we need to watch out that whomever that was over in the East that we saw on a ship, that they don't make the deal for Doc:Flex with the Borg instead of with us. Otherwise, it doesn't really bother me that much as it hopefully will mean that the Borg will finish repaying us techwise sooner than would be the case if we traded forward again with them. We should, however, try not to lose any other deals through communications mishaps in the future.

I don't know when/if Hercules sent that note above, but if it was before the Borgs had made the deal with whomever, then that would be problematic. In any case, I would have expected to hear from them on the subject by now; all the more reason to look more toward the PUT.

Meanwhile, with the Borg demonstrating this obsession with Doc:Flex, one must assume that the chances of them getting aggressive with probes is reasonably likely and should be acted on.

We want defensive probes!

[Hercules]

This from Maniac

Oh darn. I read your mail just now. I'm afraid I ordered to trade with the
AI. :-( Since PEACE stopped negotiating after I sent the turn to you, I
assumed you were no longer interested in the deal.
In any case, a majority of the Collective was in favour of switching
research to HEC after we got DocFlex, so we'll be able to finally finish the
IndAut deal in some four years, and start with a clean slate. :-)

Greetings,

Maniac

[Makahlua]

And now there is the fact they are researching Doc : Init .... rrr. >_< I could be naive and assume they haven't checked our research lately and don't know we have it and thought what a dandy presnt it might make for us instead of HEC (it is possible that wasnt offered)........ but I dunno Can we bring that up with Maniac quickly? And negotiate a deal for it perhaps, just to keep them researching better (for us) techs?

[Hercules]

Re Deal with PUT.

It's not crucial this turn but where was Ethical Calc from the PUT as their side of the deal. Did Archaic not read his internal comms. Then on top they ask for Cycon Comm link. PUT are on route to Ecol Eng in 6 years, handy?

Their logic on strategy is probably right. Where when is ethic Calc, they owe us.

Cycon: Despite Maniac email, Cycon still pursue research of Doc: Init. ?

Hive passed over Applied physics we delivered Doc: Mob
Miriam 1 year to Non linear
Roze 6 years to SoHB

Ship news

PMS Santiago hit IOd and moved off side
PMS Revenge exposed more territory
PMS KinG Lear heads home, 2 moves left, west or south?
PMS Farragut. close to pod at 10.38

Then there is the build possibilities.

New base, Atlantis on that single tile isle, 42,54 ?

Rover on transport ready to pop next turn.

Sea Colony pod has met with dismal exploration possibilities near DenLand

Rush possibilities:

Rita, 11 ecs to finish Crawler
Casablanca, 13 to finish former


Oh B Drones have popped up

At Liar's Lair and HMB (finsih Supply Crawler for 28).

Views 12 hours from now.

[johndmuller]

Hopefully, the PUT just screwed up and forgot to give us the EthCalc and they will give it to us next turn. I would suggest that you hold the turn while you and/or Cap'n Flubber contact the PUT and MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS OK instead of letting everything sail on by while it is screwed up like we did the last couple of turns. Some straight talk with the Borg might be a good idea too. It seems that nothing is going on in these areas when there are obvious problems. Is Ambas'dor Flubber unable to talk to either of them or what?

As to the turn details, I posted something in the turn thread (where Cap'n Herc should have posted his turn stuff instead of in here). I think that the drone problem could be eased or deferred if the EthicalCalc problem were resolved soon, so there is good reason to delay taking the turn in order to make sure that is on track. If you send out the turn before things are straightened out, it could possibly come around again before anyone over there realizes anything is wrong.

[Hercules]

This to MAniac and Drogue

Prime Functions Mani- Alpha -3 And Drogue Beta 8.

See your reply to us below. However in the actual turn you are researching Doc:
Init. Please explain and advise.

Peter Steenbeke wrote:

> Oh darn. I read your mail just now. I'm afraid I ordered to trade with the
> AI. :-( Since PEACE stopped negotiating after I sent the turn to you, I
> assumed you were no longer interested in the deal.
> In any case, a majority of the Collective was in favour of switching
> research to HEC after we got DocFlex, so we'll be able to finally finish the
> IndAut deal in some four years, and start with a clean slate. :-)
>
> Greetings,
>
> Maniac
>

[Hercules]

This to Dean Archaic

Greetings Dean and Professors.

Has there been a slight hiccup in the faculty. ?

Ambassador Flubber in discussions with Ambassador Crimson Sunrise
reached agreement on the trade of Doc: Flex for Ethical Calculus and
also a Pact.

For our part we delivered Doc: Flex and the Pact last turn and these
were accepted by you, however the small matter of the sending over of
Ethical Calculus didn't occur as agreed.

We believe this to be a small hiccup/error on your part but before we
complete the turn, our cap'ns asked that we get an explanation from
yourselves and assurance that it will sent over next turn. If you care
to also send over some ecs by way of compensation that would be
appreciated.

On the other issue of Comm links, Ambassador Flubber will be in touch
with your Ambassador.

Cap'n Calico Hercules.

[Flubber]

I have been in contact with both the university and cycon

University- claim an error and eth calc will be sent on the next turn-- I believe them

Cycon- claim that a non-regular turn player was playing and chose doc ini as the best possible tech among those available. maniac claimed to be upset about this.
I can't say that I believe them


Other stuff

WE have not traded doc flex to the Hive pending our making a deal with the drones

The drones offered eth calc for doc flex-- I had to decline and let them know that eh calc would soon be in our ownership

[Hercules]

Are Cycon going to change to HEC, next turn?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Hercules
Are Cycon going to change to HEC, next turn?

Maniac gave no indication that this was their plan-- They would lose half their research points would they not??

[Googlie]

[FlameFlash]

Originally posted by Flubber



Maniac gave no indication that this was their plan-- They would lose half their research points would they not??

As the GreatGooglieGod suggests, perhaps we can offer them Doc: Init in trade for a rather large amount of ecs since they are being so blantatly bad at keeping their word.

Once we finally get the agreed upon tech I recommend that we reduce the pact to a treaty for there have been way too "misunderstandings" for it just to be coincidence. The PUT at the current time seem much more trustworthy, especially if they do deliver Eth Calc this next round.

[Hercules]

I received replies from both Maniac and Drogue along the same lines.

I don't believe them either. This offer to research NonLinear is based, I feel, on their belief that they can steal/trade it from Miriam or Roze. Well maybe so can we.

Dear Captain Hercules

Here is a copy of the message I sent to Flubber, explaing
and apologising for the mix-up.



"I write to you as Prime Function to apologise for the mix-up regarding our
turn-playing. With holidays and absenses things in the CyCon had been a bit
mixed up as of late, and so DBTS simply played the turn with what orders
were there, and doing what he saw as best. Since Corellion had not yet
posted the switch to HEC, as it was to be a late addition becuase of the
poll finishing, DBTS had no idea about the latest diplomacy. Please consider
this a formal apology on behalf of the CyCon, and accept our gift of 10ec
which we will put in the diplomacy box when we get the turn.

I am sorry for this mix up. As Maniac has said, we are willing to research
Nonlinear Mathemetics next, if you wish, to trade the tech you ideally
wanted (IIRC)."



DBTS has not been that active a member in the last couple of months, and so
has not been up to date with negotiations. As I said to Flubber, I am truly
sorry for the mix-up, and we are willing both to research Nonlinear Math and
trade that, if you wish, and gift you 10ec as an apology.



Yours,

Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

If Flubber can secure restrictive trading and non building of MCC terms and a good price I would sell Doc: Init just so we can be rid of them. With the money we might be able to buy Non Linear from Roz or Miriam, and let the cycon research HEC which we also want.

[johndmuller]

I'd like to believe the Borgs' story, but I'm having trouble going along with the idea that Doc:Initiative could be anyone's idea of the "best" tech for them to research (especially an "anyone" trusted to take the turns) given this presumed list of alternatives from the tech offerings tool:

• Doctrine: Initiave;
• Ethical Calculus;
• Polymorphic Software;
• Nonlinear Mathematics;
• High Energy Chemistry;
• Doctrine: Loyalty.

I could believe Ethical Calc as an unthinking SP oriented choice, bult the onlly way Doc:Init makes sense to me is that they were thinking of shaking us down once again into another attempted forced trade of one of our techs. Perhaps they can convince us otherwise, but given their less than 'convincing' history, I'd be surprised if they could come up with anything very credible (willing to let them try, however). If they fancy themselves roleplaying, I'd be interested to know what role that is they are playing.

To have any chance of getting back in our good graces, I think they need to provide a REALLY BIG GESTURE to prove that all this has just been a regretable error. Ambas'dor Flubber, do you think that you can get that point across? I guess I wouldn't rule out the possibility of putting Doc:init on the table, but that would require an EVEN BIGGER GESTURE on their part.

As dumb as switching research techs at this point would be for them (and for the global research effort as a whole), it might improve their credibility and it might stand a chance in the gesture department. It would definitely waste a few turns worth of research, but after all, they are on a course to effectively waste their whole research cycle duplicating our effort. Perhaps that would also be a talking point for Ambas'dor Flubber. They can't buy it from someone else this time, AFAIK, so we are the only recourse for them to avoid the redundant research of something they don't really need anyway (speaking of which, where did they get all that cash from?).

FlameFlash, as much as de-pacting makes a statement, it also hurts us as much as it hurts them, in commerce and in infiltration (and we don't have any probes at the moment to infiltrate them with to make up for that lack of infiltration - and we have a surplus of proposed probe missions already).

[FlameFlash]

I take it we're actually benefitting from commerce with them?

I'd doubted it, but I haven't looked at the turns.

I say probe them to infiltrate ASAP and end the pact if they don't shape up. The commerce hit will hurt them more than us since we have another pactmate.

[johndmuller]

I've had funny experiences w/r probing while pacted - in one game, I infiltrated after forming a pact (like we would be doing) and when the pact was ended, so was my infiltration (I had lost the probe doing the useless infiltration too). I don't know if that always happens or not, so its an open question - just wanted you to know that it was open to futility too. In any case, if we do end the pact, we should be ready to (ree)infiltrate right away, but that is academic as we have no probes (and only a defensive one in the works at the moment (we could be building 1 or 2 next turn I think, should we choose to do that.

We are seemingly getting equal benefits in commerce (about 5 per turn IIRC).

[FlameFlash]

We need defensive probes, I say after they're built we have one or two offensive probes.

Of course if we get Impact weaponry any time soon, let's just go take out Miriam.

[Hercules]

I 'm one to complain.

but this debate should be in the Strategy thread.

I think we are approaching the stage where a bit of discussion discipline is required otherwise good ideas are lost.

[Atlantian]

I just saw this quote. Might help in future diplomatic situations...

"I have discovered the art of deceiving diplomats. I tell them the truth and they never believe me."
-- Camillo Di Cavour