AI behaving strangely - Page 2

fairline · September 23, 2003, 14:47

That's an excellent point Curt; very few people seem to visit the ToT forum. If people posted ToT stuff here at the SLeague I'm sure that would generate some interest.

All is not doom and gloom on the scenario front, however. Aside from Tech's scenarios, isn't ToT the format of choice now for DarthVeda as well? There is also a classic on the way from Boco in the shape of El Aurens.

There seems to be a surprising number of regulars on this forum who own a copy of ToT, so your fears of no-one ever seeing your scenarios are unfounded Curt.

techumseh · September 23, 2003, 15:15

Thanks. As for the forum, I think it's mostly used by ToT newbees, rather than for scenarios. I try to answer questions there when I can, but SL is still where I call home.

Exile · September 23, 2003, 15:31

And we're all glad you do, Brian.

But I'm not convinced that MGE's potential has been exhausted . . . yet.

I'm working on some things too.

Catfish · September 23, 2003, 18:19

After a night's sleep, a couple more pros and cons immediately came to mind:

Pros
Enhanced Civilopedia - with larger descriptions and improvement graphics.

Cons
Lack of city objective multipliers.

Just had to get that off my chest...

When you say this...

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
And I hope our 'ToT evangelists' will help by revealing and releasing all the groovy scenarios they are holding back!

always remember this...

Quote:

Originally posted by Catfish
There's nothing worse than someone knocking on your door trying to tell you what's good for you.

curtsibling · September 23, 2003, 18:30

Well, we all agree that increased ToT awareness would be a good thing for the CIV community...

No-one is forcing any poster to do anything.

If I recall, Mr. Catfish, you were one of the leading voices of pro-ToT idealism...Isn't that right?

Catfish · September 23, 2003, 18:47

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
If I recall, Mr. Catfish, you were one of the leading voices of pro-ToT idealism...Isn't that right?

As long as I'm not shoving it down anyone's throat. That's the point.

It's for purely selfish reasons.

I'm sick of converting scenarios.

techumseh · September 23, 2003, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Catfish

Cons
Lack of city objective multipliers.

Isn't it the same in MGE?

Catfish · September 23, 2003, 19:14

After wading through all the talk in these posts, this comment grabbed my attention:

Quote:

Originally posted by techumseh
Frankly, I think the big barrier to ToT acceptability has been that it's somewhat intimidating to work with. Yes, there are no editors, but more important, it's somewhat complex.

This does seem to be the case. Really, it's only as complicated as you want to make it. New designers could forgo the advanced options, but still take advantage of, say, the graphics and extra units. They can then introduce themselves to the other stuff at a later date.

Hell, when I was a Civ2 newbie - way back when - I dived straight into editing game files, ditching the clumsy Civ2 editor. When I got my mits on ToT, my complaint was, Why didn't they make the macro language more powerful?

Catfish · September 23, 2003, 19:17

Quote:

Originally posted by techumseh
Isn't it the same in MGE?

Sorry, I forgot. I don't own MGE, so I was comparing it to FW.

techumseh · September 23, 2003, 19:22

Yeah, I think ToT is based pretty much on the MGE game engine, with some tweaks. It's pretty aggressive.

HisMajestyBOB · September 23, 2003, 20:54

Just out of curiosity, could one use Civ2 unit sprites with ToT?

I eventually plan to get ToT, and I've been toying with some scenarios + ideas for MGE that I'd do on ToT instead.
Of course, I'd have to actually get motivated and do something first.

techumseh · September 23, 2003, 21:26

Do you mean Civ3 sprites? AFAIK they're not compatible. You'd have to break down the individual images and reinsert them in the ToT sprite, using Mercator's sprite tool.

fairline · September 24, 2003, 02:27

If you mean the replace the appalling ToT sprites with civ2-type static unit graphics, then the answer is yes. In fact, with the help of Mercator's ToT tools you also have the option of replacing the ToT sprites with fully animated sprites (requiring 100-150 frames per sprite IIRC) or with a reduced 8-frame 'sprite' (a unit facing N-NE-E-SE-S-SW-W-NW for example).

The stock MPS graphics were ToT's main downfall in the popularity stakes versus MGE, I think; the standard animations are dingy and indistinct. Paradoxically, their format is also potentially a huge asset over MGE; we have seen what can be done with 15(?)-bit gfx versus MGE's 8-bit courtesy of Catfish, and for any-one brave enough to take on the task of full-on animated sprites there is the possibility of creating a game that looks as good as civ3. Even if this never happens, and I doubt if anyone wil take up this particular challenge, then the static unit graphics still face in 2 directions automatically, which is an advance over MGE. The additional height available for each slot also allows far more consistent scalling between units: pikemen and cavalry can be represented more reallistcally, for example.

curtsibling · September 24, 2003, 02:48

I am tempted by this animated potential of ToT.
Just imagine an animated WW2 scen....

Did I mention that I previously worked in the games industry as a 3D/2D guy...?

Just how easy is it to use Mercator's utility?

techumseh · September 24, 2003, 03:01

It pops the sprite cells open just like that! I find the whole thing a little intimidating though.

However, if you check out the Civ3 forums, there are lots of artists making multi-view unit files. And they're very good.

Using a graphics program, it SHOULD be possible to extract the appropriate views from a Civ3 sprite and convert it to the ToT sprite format.

This requires a bold and artistic talent to pioneer. It's all yours, Curt....

Catfish · September 24, 2003, 03:11

You can rip ToT sprites with Sprite Converter, located here. For ripping Civ3 sprites, use FLICster, located here.

fairline · September 24, 2003, 03:28

One word of caution about the ToT sprites. I've opened 'em all up and there are a different number of frames per slot. This means that unit slots are not interchangeable. Shouldn't be a problem for a one-off scenario, but anyone wanting to use that Curt Sibling King Tiger animation

will have to put it in the same slot. Not a massive problem though. I see more potential with the 8-frame sprites personally, which naturally are fully interchangeable.

Both flicster and civsprite work easily and well BTW. I had a play with ripping some civ3 units and inserting into ToT a while a go. As Tech says, there is a big library of civ3 units created by the community. (lots of WW2 tanks Curt

)

Another possibility is to use a 3D graphics program to generate lots of different views of the same unit.....

curtsibling · September 24, 2003, 03:50

I say we get a sprite making team together!

This could be the answer to making ToT sexy to the fans!

Imagine a 2194 type scenario, animated units, with the full works...

It would take a while, but with a dedicated team, it could become a seriously ground-breaking and big thing in the CIV2 world!

Someone/people could make the art, and someone could put the animated sprites together!

I see huge potential for this!

Really!

Cifer Almasy · September 24, 2003, 05:01

...and I will place citys!

Damn! You´re making me so hot on ToT that I cant even wait one more minute...

Wished I could help you guys - but if you want to see my skills of art: I will post a unit gif (there are 4 or 5 self made- graphics).

Everyone is welcome to use them!

Palaiologos · September 24, 2003, 07:16

Cifer, those must have been the wost graphics i've ever seen. At kindergarden i drew better stuff.

Have you ever considered changing your hobies?
Proffesional wrestling or something else less demanding of your artistic skills?

fairline · September 24, 2003, 07:31

Ouch!! Don't hold back there Palaiologos. What are those pics of anyway? Couldn't be arsed downloading them.

If I didn't have a 50-60-hour-a-week job I might be interested in this Curt. For me, the beauty of civ is that it is relatively simple to create a historically accurate scenario; this wouldn't be the case if you had to create 150-frame animations for each of the unit slots. Perhaps the 8-frame option is do-able.

Personally, I wouldn't choose a WW2 scenario either. This is not to say I don't enjoy playing them, it's just I think there are masses of really interesting historical periods that haven't been touched on yet.

Palaiologos · September 24, 2003, 07:57

Behold....the terror!

Cifer Almasy · September 24, 2003, 08:49

(hey man I cant paint with my mouse on the PC) give me paper and a pencil!

Palaiologos · September 24, 2003, 09:03

I know what you mean.With a pencil i have drawn such gigantic subjects as Thermopylae and fall of Constantinople.I was even doing comics back in the old days!.

But with a mouse i can barely draw a simple subject such as a ball.

curtsibling · September 24, 2003, 10:11

Man, I always use the mouse to draw!
I can't use one of those hideous sausage-like wacom pens!

@fairline:
I know what you mean, there is not enough hours in one day to do all the activities we want!

I think making ToT viable would really help prolong the CIV life-line, it is the next step...

I am going to check out Mercator's program...

curtsibling · September 24, 2003, 10:26

And, I think Cifer, made a courageous effort.

Perhaps his strengths are not with digital visuals, but I can detect that he has skill in regular art!

Zabba149 · September 24, 2003, 10:46

Yes! More ToT scenarios!

Cifer Almasy · September 24, 2003, 11:16

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
And, I think Cifer, made a courageous effort.

Perhaps his strengths are not with digital visuals, but I can detect that he has skill in regular art!

Yeah man!

I see you have an experienced eye for such things...
No kidding! These graphics never had the claim to be serious- I just was interested in what I could create with paint for Civ2!

I mean what you create is not composed of lines- it is an art for its one- combining pixels to an picture... For hell i dont know how to do that

techumseh · September 24, 2003, 12:13

The Static Sprite contains the following 10 views for each of the 81 units in ToT, for a total of 810 cells.

You will note that the 3 views facing to the left are missing. This is because the program automatically reverses (mirrors) them when the unit is facing the other way.

The white and black cells are the mask for the civ colors. Anything in white will appear in the color of the civ owning the unit.

So if we limit ourselves to the Static spr. only, it looks fairly simple. We only have to work with one spr. file, which will also save space.

Cifer Almasy · September 24, 2003, 12:23

Sorry, the last time I will diturb this wonderful planning of ToT... but I forgot my superb citys gfx!

Some day I will release my ultimate "Hubble bubble Scenario"...

And what about opening a new thread for the new main topic:

Civ2 Test of Time: The next step of advance
...or something like that