Balanced Army

[Snowflake]

I have never been really good at war. So I was wondering if somebody who are more experienced could provide some guidance in the ways how an army should be prepared.

For example, what is a balanced number of infantry, rovers, transport, foils, drop units and planes? Second, when you build a military unit, do you go with the maximum for all aspects, like 4, 3, 2, or do you do 4, 1, 2 for the lower production cost?

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
I have never been really good at war. So I was wondering if somebody who are more experienced could provide some guidance in the ways how an army should be prepared.

For example, what is a balanced number of infantry, rovers, transport, foils, drop units and planes? Second, when you build a military unit, do you go with the maximum for all aspects, like 4, 3, 2, or do you do 4, 1, 2 for the lower production cost?

Are you asking SP or PBEM?

I think it makes a difference.


Mead

[Curiosity]

Bring probes. Lots of probes. Nothing sucks more than getting your beachhead base subverted with 20 units in it.

For the early ground wars, I wouldn't bring infantry unless they're Elite or marines (both are unlikely.) Focus on unarmoured rovers, best-1-2. Occasionally it's also useful to have a few 1-2-2 or even 1-3-2, especially if the opponent doesn't have impact weapons.

Invasion by transport is pretty limited. Usually it's a tactical move, to get around a chokepoint, take a HQ or a base with a critical SP, or just to harass a player.

After air power I tend to build some impact needlejets to bulk out my missile jets - they're ridiculously cheap. If your opponent doesn't have Air Power then it hardly matters what you bring. If they do then you may want to inclde some interceptors as cover for your attackers. Again, cheap rovers make the best ground troops.

Post-MMI you just need drop infantry (or sometimes drop rovers if the opponent has Aerospace Complexes) and choppers. Drop scout infantry are often enough; you can upgrade them after the drop if necessary. Use drop CPs to bridge to the opponents's territory.

Post-Orbital Spaceflight I've found that 20 PBs, 20 Interceptors and a needlejet colony pod solves most problems.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Mead


Are you asking SP or PBEM?

I think it makes a difference.


Mead

Pbem mainly.

So if you and your rival are in two unconnected lands, it will be best to wait for airpower or even MMI before you really get into war? Is transport not effective because of the cost? Are there any advantages of infantry over rovers or are rovers always better? What is drop CP? (sorry for the ignorance) What is the benefit of building drop scout infantry then upgrade them over directly build the better drop units? (turn advantages?) Is drop rovers needed if the opponent has Aerospace Complexes because you would be dropping in a faraway place?

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu


Pbem mainly.

So if you and your rival are in two unconnected lands, it will be best to wait for airpower or even MMI before you really get into war? Is transport not effective because of the cost? Are there any advantages of infantry over rovers or are rovers always better? What is drop CP? (sorry for the ignorance) What is the benefit of building drop scout infantry then upgrade them over directly build the better drop units? (turn advantages?) Is drop rovers needed if the opponent has Aerospace Complexes because you would be dropping in a faraway place?

I have not played PBEM so my observations should be taken with a grain of salt.

My understanding from reading threads on PBEM is that atrocities rule supreme. Most of the combat strategies, once you get the ability to build PBs and use Gas Warfare, involve PBing and gassing the opponent. In SP I can get away with seldom building a PB or using Gas.

Some sort of random observations of what I generally do. Some times, if the circumstances dictate I will go against these tendencies:

Do not armor your rovers. Because of their mobility they should be an offensive unit. They should not be placed or left in an area where they are not protected by other better-armored units.

Give all your military minded infantry units AAA, even if the other side does not have Airpower yet (if you have the ability to give your units AAA, the other side will shortly have Airpower). If your units have AAA and good armor the AI airpower tends to leave them alone.

Give your units 'drop'. This increases their flexibility dramatically. Not only can they drop and occupy a city (good for the offense), but also they can travel throughout your empire (and the world if you have orbital insertion) to any threatened spot quickly.

Try to concentrate on developing your infrastructure to get the ability to make an effective military offensive or defensive force before you need to go to war. Make only enough good military units to stave off any unexpected threats. I generally try to hold off a military build-up until after I have Airpower and choppers.

When on the offensive I like to take a wave of cites at a time. Then I house my units within the cities until I am ready to take the next wave, the next turn or two later. I do not like leaving my units outside a city in or near a combat zone. Depending upon how well developed the city is, it will give my units within it a +25% base, plus sensor, perimeter, tachyon, and aerospace center.

Use airpower to the fullest extent possible. It is very powerful, wide-ranging and flexible. At the very least it will force your opponents to add AAA to their units and make Aerospace Centers. The only thing I do not like about airpower is that until Locusts or Deathspheres, it cannot take bases by itself, and you cannot drop troops into a sea base.

I try to ignore the sea as long as possible. The game is usually won or lost on land, with the sea being a sideshow.

Consider using some well-honored principles of war


A few of these are:
Mass - If you are going t do something hit it well. Plan your attack and make sure your have enough units to successful carry out what you want to do.

Economy of force - kind of the counter of Mass. Do not send 4 rovers and 3 good infantry to take out a base that has two weak units in it (one it involves too much tedious work and two, those units probably can be better off used elsewhere)

Maintain your objective - Figure out what you are going to do before you do it and try not to deviate. If you plan is to take a few specific bases with the SPs you want, then do not change that plan after you set the invasion force in motion.

Flexibility - kind of the counter of Maintain your objective Keep your objective of taking those SP bases but I you find that you can take out a neighboring base first and then use it to drop your drop units into it without incurring the drop damage penalty, do so.

Simplicity - try to use a strategy that does not require too many things to happen for it to be successful

Surprise - Even the AI will wake up to the fact that you are doing a native life form based invasion if you let it live and adapt to the attack. Attacks should be quick, overwhelming and decisive - if possible from an unexpected direction.

Security - Keep your datalinks secure. Keep your own area free from interference. You cannot wage a good campaign if your rear areas are being pick apart. You cannot wage an effective invasion if you do not have good probe support.


Sorry for such the long post but I could go on for a lot longer. Perhaps answers could be better organized by answering how to build an army for offensive strategies in one post/thread and defensive strategies in another post/thread.


Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu


Pbem mainly.

So if you and your rival are in two unconnected lands, 1. it will be best to wait for airpower or even MMI before you really get into war?

2. Is transport not effective because of the cost?

3. Are there any advantages of infantry over rovers or are rovers always better?

4. What is drop CP? (sorry for the ignorance)

5. What is the benefit of building drop scout infantry then upgrade them over directly build the better drop units? (turn advantages?)

6. Is drop rovers needed if the opponent has Aerospace Complexes because you would be dropping in a faraway place?

My previous post did not answer the questions you posed above so I will try to answer them here as best I can.

1. I must be a pacifist because I always like to hold off a war until I have to fight. If they want to declare Vendetta on me before Airpower and MMI fine, but I will not be happy to start a war until I have them.

2. I do not like transports because -
They cost a lot
Until later in the game they do not move many materials very far very quickly
My units are very vulnerable on the transports and the transports must be well escorted.

3. Both are useful. The rovers make a good offensive punch. The infantry can be armored at a much cheaper price and protect the rovers. Rovers without infantry make a nice target for airpower.

4. I think it is a drop colony pod. I do not use them because the last time I did my computer started to have the Terran.exe crash and I had to reinstall SMAC. I am not sure using drop CPs caused it but I am not taking any chances. Needlejet Colony Pods are awesome.

5. I am not sure. I have not got too far into the calculations. After the Nanofactory I guess it could be cheaper. Usually, I am tempted to upgrade a lot of my infantry units to drop after I get drop.

6. Drop rover units are not necessary if you opponent has Aerospace Centers. Usually there will be a road, river or if you have XD a fungus 'road' to the base. Aerospace centers only cover up to two spaces from the base. Unless ICS is being used there will usually be gaps where you can drop an infantry unit in and roll the three spaces on a road into the 'chopped/missiled' base. Even if you did have a rover drop in and conduct the attack I believe it will suffer from the 50% 'drop energy penalty' on that turn.


Mead

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Mead

5. I am not sure. I have not got too far into the calculations. After the Nanofactory I guess it could be cheaper. Usually, I am tempted to upgrade a lot of my infantry units to drop after I get drop.

Mead

Drop Scouts are better from the perspective that you can aggregate them at a desired location, then when the time is right, upgrade them and strike, as opposed to building them piecemeal at various locations, then having to move them to their "Assembly Point", then striking. The Governor, whoever owns the Empath Guild, erstwhile Pactmates, and anyone who has infiltration on you will all keanly pay attention to what your building and where, whereas a bunch of Drop Scouts will draw less attention than your armadas of "Fishing Trawlers", a.k.a. Probe Foils.
Making the decision to go to war depends on many variables, some of which are as follows:

1. Terrain: does the terrain you plan on attacking favor the Defender or the Attacker? This then may determine whether you take a "Sword" (i.e. offensive) posture, or "Shield" (Defensive) stance.

2. Alliances: whose allied to who, and where are they relative to your position (i.e. you don't want to start a war on one side of your empire, only to have your intended victims Pactmate attack from the rear!)?

3. The Faction you are playing versus the Faction you are targeting: depending on their initial capabilities, why sometimes the sooner the better to attack, and sometimes its obvious that patience will be rewarded.

4. The capability/ reputation of your intended victim: are they a good fighter? If you don't know, ask people in the community, and usually you can find several reputable individuals who'll be able to fill you in as far as the intended victim's background in this arena.

The makeup of your Army will then, to a certain extent, be dictated by the answers to the questions above. The rest then becomes astute military observation, experience, luck (always luck!), and in a lot of cases, who can then win the ensueing "Battle of the Buildup" after the initial surprise is lost.

btw, I have a tactic I employ with the Gaians whereby I xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Note: this section deleted by Gaian Military Censors xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxx . Boy, I almost wish I could see the looks of surprise and consternation on people's faces when I pull that one on them!



D

[Curiosity]

So if you and your rival are in two unconnected lands, it will be best to wait for airpower or even MMI before you really get into war?

Mostly; I've tried naval invasion and never made much progress, though if you can hit and hold a defensible position then it will drive your opponent nuts. On the other hand, if they're undefended and especially if they're small - say 4-6 bases - then I've seen situations where I kicked myself for not sending out half-a-dozen rovers.
If you have the WP then an unexpected land-bridge is great in this scenario.

Is transport not effective because of the cost?

Partially cost. Partially the supply-line. It takes a while for reinforcements to get there, and they're vulnerable to IoDs and sealurks. Partially the fact that most people only get flexibility while beelining to Air Power.

Are there any advantages of infantry over rovers or are rovers always better?

Infantry get +25% attack vs base, and they're cheaper; if they're elite then the +1 movement makes them fanatastic on the attack. Especially elite 6-1-1's. . In general, though, infantry suck. They will slow down your movement. I find it worth a mineral row to have a rover defender instead.

What is drop CP? (sorry for the ignorance)

Mead has it; drop colony pods. They're the key to global reach.

What is the benefit of building drop scout infantry then upgrade them over directly build the better drop units? (turn advantages?)

Darsnan makes good points. The other advantage is that you may not need to upgrade them. In duels I prefer a scorched earth policy; I only keep bases which are useful for advancing my choppers, and obliterate the rest.

Is drop rovers needed if the opponent has Aerospace Complexes because you would be dropping in a faraway place?

Exactly, as Mead says - drop into a patch of fungus or onto a free space in his road network, and come in from a distance.

[Jamski]

Can't go wrong with drop AAA garrisons and best-1-8 copters

No need for anything else really.

-Jam

[Commander Jace]

It really depends on your style of play

I believe the best offense or defense is a strong recon team as i always like to say recon makes the world go round.

Needle Jets with recon and anti ship capabilities can cause some pretty severe damage on enemy Covert Missions not to mention pissing of the computer when 16 units go down due to a transport bombing.

So yeah I go with what everybody else says but I also believe recon is an essential part of creating a strong army.

just look at the u.s

DoD, FBI,CIA,NSA

All branches devoted to recon

[Mr. Harley]

Needle Jet Colony Pods beat out DCP for multiplayer (except for Orbital Insertion) for one reason - you can build the base at the end of movement, while you must wait a turn with the DCP. Non-military drop units cannot move in the turn they drop. In single player who cares, you should be well ahead even at transcend unless playing a handicap.

Any player who igores someone who builds drop scouts is stupid. The only reason to build drop scouts is build an invasion force. To deal with mindworms you'll make empath choppers or needlejets by that point. Normal scouts are often police or trance, depending on your SE settings. You cannot upgrade the drop scouts to deal with an mindworm attack without a one turn delay unless you upgrade them ALL, and that is the sign of a sneak offense. Hello, were you paying attention to your infiltrators. Did you notice how much energy he was accumulating? Dead givaways.

Everything written about Rovers vs. Infranty applies except remember one thing - elite infranty can be VERY practical for Santiago to deploy fairly early in the game. They can be deadly dangerous, as can Elite Rovers that you thought you were safe from, after all they are over two moves out. Again, the AI isn't good at running Santiago. I haven't done alot in PBEM yet, but a good Santiago player has to be deadly dangerous if you let her get close and she keeps approximate tech parity.

Lastly, intelligence and pre-emptive strikes versus planet busters. You need infiltration, period. Get the technology and use the multiple crawler multiple prototyple techique to rush build your own. If permitted, upgrade crawlers to help the prototype rush. Mutual Assured Destruction.

If it looks like he'll get Planet Busters first and you are on his A-list, think probe teams. You may even build some armored or drop probe teams. Get the base, or get the player. He has probe teams there, you need to have more. If it's the AI, distract it. Drop a unit adjacent to it that the AI is scared of, it will change what it's building, especially if you interupt it early enough. If a human, evaluate the danger and hope you are correct. Play three player, so a nuclear exchange causes you both to lose Make sure a first strike can never eliminate you, if that's starting to develop, you need to make some changes ASAP.

[HeymlicH]

A very well balanced army is:

70% copters
30% floaters




If you like ground units more, it's complicated. The only thing that is for sure is: If you are able to build elite units, you don't need rovers at all.

[Snowflake]

Ok what is required to build elite units? Command center? Trained units? Visit monolith? What else? Switch to power? Do you have to switch to power when you build the units or can you switch later when you need to use the units? What are floaters? transports? submarines? aircraft carriers?

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
1. Ok what is required to build elite units? Command center? Trained units? Visit monolith? What else? Switch to power? 2. Do you have to switch to power when you build the units or can you switch later when you need to use the units? 3. What are floaters? transports? submarines? aircraft carriers?

See below for my thoughts:

1. For Ground Units my ground military production bases usually have a bioenhancement center and command center. The units manufactured there visit a monolith right after their manufacture. If you are Santiago, or are running Power SE, your units do not need to visit a monolith. I suppose you could also substitute a trained special ability for a monolith visit, but it seems like a waste of resources.

For Air Units my air production bases have an aerospace center and bioenhancement center. I do not manufacture Elite Air Units unless I am running Power SE or are Santiago. I suppose if I combined the above with a Trained unit I could do it.

For Sea Units, I generally ignore them, but if I were to concentrate on them I would make a Naval Base and bioenhancement center. It is hard to find a monolith at sea. The only ones I have seen are ones that used to be on land before the sea level rose, or the monolith was lowered into the sea. I suppose if I combined the above with a Trained unit I could make an Elite Sea Unit.

If you have the Cyborg Factory you do not need to make the bioenhancement centers.

2. You must be running Power when you make the units.

3. I do not know what he means by floaters. I can only guess.


Mead

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by Jamski
Can't go wrong with drop AAA garrisons and best-1-8 copters

No need for anything else really.

-Jam

I like to build "warthogs" - AAA/ECM defenders with silksteel or better. I usually drop a few of these puppies off on enemy rocky/bunker squares to draw off enemy fire before proceeding with the main force.

[Jamski]

I use these to cover my crawlers against air attack. Clean AAA silksteel or better... yum.

-Jam

[Curiosity]

HH,

To get Elites you need +5 Morale. Bioenhancement centres obviously don't factor much until MMI, so for the early wars facilities give only +2 from a command centre.

The other variables are; monolith visit, trained unit, fundie politics, power values, faction bonuses and combat victories.

Power values and high morale also tend to come after Air Power, excepting possibly for Yang, who may want to get Intellectual Integrity early for police units, and who can skip a tech on the way there.

Mostly that leaves monoliths, fundie, combat and faction bonuses.

So Santiago can get early Elite ground troops reliably with fundie-monolith-command centre. Others can have a load of infantry trawling the fungus for MWs until they get the upgrade to commando, then send them to a monolith, but it's too slow and unreliable to be useful for attacking.

Positive morale ratings will apply to your units whenever you're in a given SE choice, so Santiago can have a load of commando 4-1-1's, then switch to fundie and they become Elite.
The rub is, IIRC, that negative modifiers are permanent. Build units in wealth then switch out of wealth and into fundie and the -1 morale cancels the +1 morale.

So, for practical purposes, the Elite infantry rush is only relevant for Santiago, or in the late game when orbital insertion is available.

[Snowflake]

So for Yang, if you switch from wealth to power, the +2 morale cancel the -2 morale. Then your prototyped(+1) trained (+1) infantry produced in a command center(+2) who visits a monolith(+1) will be elite, right? And if you have a bio center then you don't need trained.

Sofar what I gathered from the discussion here is that if you were to form an offensive army, you need elite drop AAA infantry (or garrison?), best-1-8 copters, and a couple needlejet colony pods?

[Mongoose]

+2 for CC, + 1 for trained, +1 for Fundy, +1 for monolith...equals 5, by my count. Anyone can have elite infantry, given that they know Doctrine: Mobility, Intellectual Integrity, Secrets of the Human Brain and have a monolith or two ready to hand...except for Gaians because of their base -1 MORALE and Unversity because of their inablility to use Fundy.

Additionally, of course, given enough time and money, anybody can build elites, so long as they have Intellectual Integrity (and maybe ethical calculus).

It all comes down to how badly you want/need elite units and how much time you have to build/train them.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu

***

Sofar what I gathered from the discussion here is that if you were to form an offensive army, you need elite drop AAA infantry (or garrison?), best-1-8 copters, and a couple needlejet colony pods?

That's kind of how I do it.

I also add some Locusts. They team up with the choppers to take care of the sea bases quickly because my drop units cannot drop into sea bases.

The classic 'chop and drop' I and many other people use can be a little bit harder (and slower to do) if your opponent equips its bases with Aerospace Centers (plus other defensive modifiers), and garrisons them with well-armored AAA units.


Mead

[HeymlicH]

Since I'm more a builder than a Warrior I use to build small, technically advanced armies. I don't run Power or Fundy. My standard for elite ground troops is: CC + Bioenhencement center + trained units(In most cases I don't have a monolith). My standard unit is a trained 8-1-1 or 5-1-1 infantry. This is not a waste of ressources, this kind of units is cheap (and I have a strong infrastructure). Defensive units don't have to be elite. The reason why the offensive units need to be elite is that you can move them towards a base and attack in the same turn.

There is one thing I forgot: Build some Probe teams and place them in the captured cities

[Curiosity]

Originally posted by Mongoose
+2 for CC, + 1 for trained, +1 for Fundy, +1 for monolith...equals 5, by my count.

True; but it's not necessarily worthwhile.

For units with impact weapons trained costs another mineral row, making the cost equal with a rover. +25% attack is handy, but attacking that much earlier is also worth a lot.

OTOH, if you have missile weapons and Int Integrity then you could generally have researched Doc:AP instead.