AU210 - UN Peacekeepers DAR 3 – Able to build forbidden palace

[Rhothaerill]

Use this space to comment on your game in the interval between the end of DAR 2 and the time at which you can finally begin construction of the Forbidden Palace (this will be different between the standard rules and the AU mod rules).

[Taian]

Not much going on to start off this second block of turns for the Americans. Towards the end of last block, down by the Mongols, I noticed some Gray borders off on the peninsula west of the Mongols. One of the American scouts is there now and can see Madras, but there's no units there to initiate conquest with. Over to the west, an American scout discovers a german settler/warrior stack. Initiating contact (it's 1990BC), Masonry it traded to the Germans for 60 gold. They have no techs we need at this point. Gandhi was nice enough to initiate contact for me.. Again, no techs I need, so trading Masonry to India for 10 gold.
1725BC - Just discovered Polytheism. Bit of a conundrum now. I can go for Monarchy (get it in 35 turns), but for a peacekeeper game (especially starting in the middle ages), not sure if I want to do that or jump straight to the Republic. I can get currency in 23 turns which I know is a good trading chip with the AI. Well..screw it. Going for Monarchy
Atlanta produces a temple in 1725. A few turns to expand and then I'll have the furs as a luxury. Also planning to get a city out further to the east of Atlanta to cut off the Mongols on their way north.
In 1650BC, the first barracks appears in the American empire in Philadelphia. Time to start getting some vets (likely spears) out into the towns. That will eventually free up the warriors currently there to upgrade to Swords later.
San Francisco founded to the south, near Seattle. With it's founding, the Mongols are essentially blocked off to the south (I think...). Miami founded in 1550BC to the east of Atlanta. Mongols are now blocked from advancing north along this route. However, they and the Babs are still encroaching on one another. 1550BC still; trading Masonry to Japan for a worker.
1375BC and the Iroquois have demanded contact with the Indians. I really don't want to give it up yet, so I refuse. Looks like I'm at war No attacks have been made yet in the Iroquois-American war. According to the rules, anything in the Ancient era is fair game? Hope so... Right now, I have a pair of regular warriors outside an Iroquois city defended only by a conscript warrior. Here's hoping... First warrior takes down the conscript and razes Tonawanda. Hiawatha won't talk to me yet

[Taian]

Houston founded near the iron to the west of San Fransicso in 1250BC. Probably won't be able to make it, but I'm trying to cut off the Indians as much as possible (and grab the Incense over that way. Buffalo founded near the iron west of Chicago.

So...1250BC. currently have 11 cities, Monarchy in 6 turns. 2 luxuries connected at the moment and no unconnected cities (thanks to those industrious workers!). I'm at 9 workers, 8 spearmen and 11 warriors. I have 478 gold in the treasury right now (running a deficit to monarchy), so I can upgrade those warriors to swordsmen as soon as I hook up some iron. I'm currently the most advanced, but probably by a little less than I was before. I could have researched both Code of Laws and Philosophy instead of Monarchy, but I want out of Despotism so I went for Monarchy instead. Within the next few turns I should be hooking up some horses, iron and incense.

A couple of Babylonian warriors wandered into the area around Philadelphia. Without provocation, in 1225BC, they declared war on me. One killed himself on the spearman in Philly while the other tripped and fell on his own axe (killed trying to attack one of my warriors outside the city). In 1200BC, contact with the Iroquois was finally re-established and they agreed to a peace treaty. 66 gold managed to "mysteriously" find it's way into the American coffers during the negotiations. In the year 1125BC, the American people discovered the secrets of Monarchy, ushering in a new era of prosperity. Started a revolution and it's a measly 2 turns until Monarchy is ushered in

[Taian]

Not much happened during the Anarchy period, but in 1075BC, a Monarchical form of government was established in America. That same turn, Mysticism was sold to the Indians for 50 gold, Pottery to the Germans for 25 gold, and Mysticism to the Spanish for 50 gold.

In 1025, St. Louis was founded north of Houston on top of the incense. With it's founding, both horse and incense are linked up to the American empire. In the same year, Detroit is founded north of Miami, near the lake. Detroit is the 13th (unlucky!) town of the American civilization. Later that year, the Germans contact the Americans and demand contact with the Indians. They're not really around me at the moment, so I see no reason to give in to their demands. Looks like another war
Fortuneately, the Babylonians were willing to open diplomatic channels in 975BC and agreed to a peace treaty. They were also willing to donate 17 gold to the American cause. During negotiations, it was revealed that they knew the secret of construction. Attempts to obtain these secrets during negotiation were unsuccessful...they were demanding way too high a price.

In 950BC, New Orleans is founded on the previous site of Tonawanda, near the Iroquois capital. In it's radius is another source of Incense.

Not much going on until 775BC, when the Germans agree to a peace treaty. I pretty much have the Indians bottled up on the peninsula. 3 warriors are plugging it up, just waiting for a settler to come and plop a city down. Baltimore founded in 775BC, east of Detriot. That same year, the Iron deposits near Buffalo are linked to the rest of the empire. Swordsmen can now be built. 13 warriors are upgraded to swordsmen that year, taking a hefty cut out of my treasury at 40 gold each. Still have 180 in there though.
The next year, Denver is founded west of New Orleans, on the hills.

Yikes...this is where it gets interesting. The year is 750BC and I have 13 swordsmen that I'm pretty sure will be able to do some damage to someone However, I'm also really close to the middle ages. I can trade Monarchy to the Mongols for Construction, Map Making, 39 gold and their world map. Then I can get Philosophy from the Iroquois, meaning that only CoL is left til the middle ages. I'm going to go for it and then turn research to 10% for CoL. Also going to use those swords on the Mongols because
A) They super aggressive, and
B) They have iron hooked up (no horses) and the Iroquois have neither Iron nor horses hooked up.
After trading the above with the Mongols, I traded Construction to the Iroquois for Philosophy, their world map and 31 gold. Next, Philosophy and Polytheism went to the Ottomans for 75 gold and their World Map. Then Philosoply to the Germans for their World Map. Polytheism to the Babs for 35 gold and their world map. Polytheism to Japan for their world map and 1 gold. Finally, Polytheism to Rome for 49 gold and their world map.

OK...412 gold in the treasury and 5 turns to Currency. Then it's CoL and then the peacekeeping starts In the interests of keeping an eye on everyone, I have the cash to put embassies everywhere (just checked...389ish gold for an embassy everywhere and the treasury is at 412). Hmm..guess I lied. It cost 411 gold for all the embassies. But they're established now. Gave a quick look everywhere and there are currently no wars going on between anyone. Good for peacekeeping, bad for the tech race..
In 710BC, the sealing of the Indians was confirmed by the founding of Cincinnati at the opening of the peninsula.
Dallas founded in the desert between New Orleans and Detroit in 670BC. Later that year, the American scientists discovered the secrets of Currency. Hoping to delay entry to the new age, only a minimum science level will be maintained for now.

Just saw the Forbidden Palace message...looks like this turn block is over. The year 650BC is just beginning...

Summary:

18 cities
17 gold in the treasury
3 settlers
15 workers
12 warriors
11 spearmen
13 swordsmen
2 horsemen
3 luxuries (dye, incense, furs)
1 Iron
1 Horse
Everyone except the Babs are impressed with the American culture
All ancient techs except CoL, Lit and Republic.
I know the Babs have Lit, but I just haven't traded for it yet. I have currency. Scratch that...they have CoL and Lit. I have Monarchy and Currency which they don't. So I guess I could get into the next age next turn. Personally, I'll probably do it because I don't think it's really in the spirit to intentionally deny myself techs like that. I'll get the Mongols to attack me another way

[nbarclay]

America continued its policy of peaceful expansion, running neck and neck with its rivals in the research race. In 1075 AD, the founding of Buffalo, America’s eleventh city, finally made America the largest nation in the world in land area (at least for the moment). Later that year, Germany (America’s closest rival) demanded contact with the Ottomans and declared war when America refused. Germany was far enough away that the refusal seemed acceptably safe.

America continued to grow and prosper, but paid little enough attention to its military that when the Iroquois demanded contact with the Ottomans in 875 BC, America's leaders felt little choice but to give in. In 850 BC, peace was established with the Germans on even terms and America sold contact with the Ottomans to anyone willing to pay a decent price. American technology was starting to lag behind, but was expected to close the gap once Republic was discovered.

As time went on, America’s technological hopes began to grow far shakier. The rest of the world entered the medieval era, and America was still without Currency, Construction, Map Making, and Literature. Just as America was about to discover Republic, word came that construction of a Forbidden Palace would be possible. The next turn, in 610 AD, America pulled off its great coup to get back in the technological hunt with the following trades (not counting a few minor map deals):

Map Making and Currency bought from the Iroquois for gold.
Construction bought from Japan for gold.
Republic sold to the Ottomans for Engineering, 58 gold, 42 gpt, and a territory map.
Republic traded to Babylon for Feudalism and a territory map.
Republic and a world map sold to the Iroquois for 479 gold and a territory map (recovering the gold used to buy Map Making and Currency).
Republic sold to Japan for 319 gold and a world map (recovering the gold for Construction).
Republic and a world map traded to the Mongols for Monarchy, Literature, a world map, and 5 gold.

With that sequence of trades, America went from being the world’s most scientifically backward society to one of its leaders, gaining a nice per-turn income in the process. It is also first in population, GNP, Mfg. Goods, land area, and productivity, although two other nations are ahead in literacy. Two dozen workers are hard at work improving the American landscape. The one dark cloud is that America has no culture at all other than what came from its palace.

The land situation is hotly contested at the moment, so I'm going to delay a little before changing governments. Three settlers are scheduled to finish in three turns and another two two turns after that, and I need all the settlers I can get.

[Theseus]

Meet the Ottomans. Very backward as well.

More trading, more gold. By 1700 BC I have over 1000g, and am at tech parity.

Jesu christo, I nab a town in the far far southeast... heck, I don;t want it, and gift it to the Germans (as far away as possible ). Bizzy-markie is now polite. But insists that my Scout leave his territory.

...

I didn't keep a detailed log from there (i.e., late night playing).

As I'm using the AU Mod, I didn't get to the FP until 390 BC, with 17 towns.

It's sort of a weird game, as I have been in full-on REX mode, have built a core at 3-RCP (which I've never done), and have been at 40 turn research well into the Medieval Age. I also chose not to connect iron thus far... so no warmongering. I'm totally light militarily: with 17 towns, I only have 18 Warriors, 6 Spears, 3 Horsemen, and now 1 Scout (barbs and some disbands).

The Mongols have been the bad boys... almost look like one of us in terms of serial warfare and pruning. They've been traipsing through my territory throughout, which pisses me off and will earn them a serious whack on the head down the road.

I've got lots of gold, and have used it to maintain tech parity... in my pre-Security Council version of UN responsibilities, I have gifted all techs to backward AI civs.

[Theseus]

I had *nothing* to do with this... seriously, the Mongols are just whacked in this game, and oscillation has come home to roost!

This calls for... the UN!!

[Theseus]

Germany just got Japan into the Mongol dogpile... that's 5 out of 8 other AI civs.

[Theseus]

Dateline 150BC: Germany enlists the Ottomans against the Mongol scourge.

Only Babs and India left out of the fray!!

[Theseus]

70 BC: India joins in... I have never seen anything like this.

Uh oh for Mongolia... here come the Mounted Warriors.

[Rhothaerill]

Pretty soon you might have to protect the Mongols. Sounds like you're having an interesting game so far.

[Theseus]

Nah, they're fine, they just got to Keshiks.

So far I've been a pacifist builder. I haven't seen the need to engage anyone in war yet...

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
( I'm totally light militarily: with 17 towns, I only have 18 Warriors, 6 Spears, 3 Horsemen, and now 1 Scout (barbs and some disbands).

That's more than double the military I had at that point - something like ten warriors and two spears. (Yes, I've been living dangerousy. )

[Theseus]

You're not big on MPs, are you?

I MP through despotism, and then transfer forces to potential hot spots. I also protect keytiles, such as resources. THat's sorta my minimum, and about where I am now.

[nbarclay]

One of the main reasons I don't build more military forces in the early game unless I'm planning a war is that I build so many granaries. Granaries take up a lot of shields, and then once they're done, there is a lot less room to fit troops in between workers/settlers than there would be without them. So while I'd always like to have more MPs than I do, the question of where, when, and how to build them tends to get in the way.

Nathan

[Theseus]

The number of AI troops crossing my territory has been insane.

This game is waaaay high on the STCOMOM (tm-Arrian).

So far I am the only civ to have been at peace the entire game. Everything's been pretty balanced thus far, although the Mongols' ability to handle the dogpile was amazing.

I am hoping to build up a strong enough infrastructure to be able to handle home defense against just about anything (slowmovers), and also be able to project power anywhere needed (fastmovers). The trick there will be to get all that in place by the time any AI civs are truly in danger... Spain and India would have been, if not for the Mongol dogpile.

I was falling behind on tech (no extortion ), but got to Banking first... whew!

It's very absorbing and one-more-turnish.

The only problem is that I turned on all of the friend/enemy animations because the battles on my territory are so amusing (everything from Warriors and Archers up through the Feud units and the Chivalry units... the fastmover UUs: MWs, Keshiks, Samurai, WEs... haven't seen any Sipahi yet), and it's sloooow.

How much does this SUCK??!! I can't attack since I'm being the good guy / future UN dude:

[Theseus]

For instance, look at the Mongol stack just above the minimap... the assorted 12 donuts box: Pikes, MedInf, and Longbow.

That's been happening throughout, in all the assorted civ flavors.

And, yes:
*Those are walls and forts all over the place.
*I am fully garrisoned due to wandering AI units.
*Muskets... which I hate, but I am living in *dread* of an AI betrayal.
*3-RCP at the core results is ridiculously tight (an experiment I will probably not repeat).

[Theseus]

How great is this... Kolhapur WILL BE MINE!!

[conmcb25]

Posted for replies

[Cort Haus]

Block 3 Report
Monarch, AU Mod

The screenie is from the turn after the FP was triggered - after 18 cities. This seems high - is it an AU Mod thing?

I've never had this many cities by 750BC, doubtless a function of those two freebies, but perhaps assisted by a policy of SEX (Slow Expansion). Once the initial five or six cities were up, more granaries were built in some cities, and barracks in others, to give vet spears to the settlers. Nothing happened for ages, and it looked like my early city lead was disappearing then woosh! Cities splurged out into the landscape, trying this unstoppable RCP machine that everyone's doing - in 4-7-11 rings. The 7 was dictated by the advance tribe and the 11 by the hills spot between the incense and horses. Getting 2 shields from my fourteenth city is kinda novel, as are the wierd 'binary cities' I ended up with.

Expansionsism has not only been kind in, er, expansion, but in tech too. Polythesism and Literature from huts. By the end of the block I had a lead of Literature over all but Japan and Rome. Maybe I should deal some freebies to keep them balanced, but tech backwaters can be good luxury suppliers. I was promiscuous with flogging contacts for peanuts, so that'll speed up the slowbies.

Republic comes in 13 turns, with +52gpt and 1558 in the kitty. Should be some good rushing when republic comes round .

Iron is about to be hooked up for 10 reg warrior upgrades - no particular use intended, just MP and general readiness. 4 archers support the vet spears (total 14) in the outer cities. 13 workers, 2 settlers.

RoPs in place with everyone except the Mongols - I was fed up with their loitering.

The others are fairly even in size and power, so pruning the Mongols (tempting though their horse-iron west wing is) may just destabilize things, and I don't usually start wars, so why now? There's a whole stack of bad-ass civs over there, so there's no point weakening one.

I'm worried about the Iroqs strong culture, so there's lots of temple building going on in my cities now, but it's very tempting to switch some to libraries instead.

I also wish Spain and India would put on more of a show - I'm a bit worried about Germany long-term. In fact looking at the vast tracts of land everywhere there should be quite a few powerful civs coming down the pipe.

[Cort Haus]

Block 3
Some Dates


1450 Code of Laws. Iroqs have Philosophy and Polythesim. Could get Polytheism for CoL if I paid 100g, or Phil +70g. Take Phil and start on Republic at 40 turns.

1375 San Francisco founded. (distance 7)

1325 Miami founded. (distance 7)


1150 Houston Founded (distance 7)

1075 St Louis founded (distance 7)
Polytheism from a hut. And death next turn. (worth it)

1050 Detroit founded on hille betwen horses and incense
Mongols have Construction, and want the moon for it (CoL, Phil, Poly + 500g)

1025 Get Construction from Babs for CoL, Poly, 10g

1000 Literature from hut.

975 New Orleans founded (distance 4)
Baltimore founded (distance 7)
Denver founded by Iron (distance 7)

950 Cincinati founded (distance 7)
That's 7 cities at distance 4, 8 at distance 7 and 1 at 11 (+ capital) = 17 cities - but still no FP option. How many are needed in this game?
Everyone (nearly) has Mapmaking, but I still have to pay 100g with Polytheism, so I trade Construction for it
Hiawatha threatens for Literature. No way.

900 Babs build Oracle. They're gonna have some culture ...

850 I have just Literature over everyone except the backward Japanese and Romans.
1349g +46gpt, Republic in 17 turns

775 Dallas founded (distance 11). Border now touches Mongols
Finally allowed to build FP (18 cities)

[vmxa1]

Yes it is the AU:

Action: Increased optimal number of cities for all map sizes by 50%
Reduced percentage of optimal cities for all levels by 1/3
Reason: To make the AI more aggressive in pursuing land
Comment: Is transparent to the human player, except for the fact that
in delays the availability of the FP. Encourages the larger AI
empires to capture (not raze) cities. May induce the AI to win
by domination. The behavior of the AI in expanding was not
changed after Firaxis made courthouses and police stations
increase the OCN by 25% each.

[Cort Haus]

It also reduces corruption for the human player, I presume. So it might be that as well as the RCP benefits that are making me see less corruption.

[vmxa1]

I attached the readme:

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
It also reduces corruption for the human player, I presume. So it might be that as well as the RCP benefits that are making me see less corruption.

No, it's not supposed to affect Corruption. The only noticeable effect in your empire should be the increase in number of cities to build the Forbidden Palace.

I think you may just be noticing the dramatic effects of RCP with multiple rings (which a Large Pangea map is more conducive to compared to a smaller Continents map).


Dominae

[Dominae]

Well, this DAR is going to look slightly different from the rest of you, because I actually ran out of land to expand into, and so could not build my Forbidden Palace until my campaign against the Mongols! The Deity AI is, ah, pretty strong at REX. For those of you who do not the specifics, the AI starts with a free Settler at Deity, meaning that it typically has two cities up and running within the first 6-8 turns of the game. This means that you really have to struggle to get every inch of land you want within your borders.

I therefore felt that to have a competitely productive empire I would need to do some warmongering. And, given the rules of this course, I knew that this would have to take place within the Ancient age, which means Swordsmen. As described in the previous DAR thread, I reasoned that the Mongols were the best targets, as they had good lands and conquering them meant that I would only have eastern and western borders to defend (although these would still be rather large). The only problem was that the AI was researching so fast that I would barely have enough Swordsmen ready to raid the Mongols and enter the Medieval era more or less at the same time as everyone else; in other words, I would need to "hold myself back" in the Ancient era by not researching some required tech.

The plan therefore was to expand as quickly as possible to get a lot of land peacefully (RCP rings at 4, 8 and 11), all the while building Warriors for an eventual offensive against the Mongols. This plan worked rather well due largely to my purchase of foreign Workers; by the time it was time to attack the Mongols, I had acquired ~25 slaves on the international slave market, for ~120 Gold apiece (at that stage of the game I only had around 8 native Workers!). If you're counting, this cost me around 3k Gold, which was actually more around 2k because many trades involved techs. Although I could have used that money for upgrades later on, I did not feel this was necessary for two reasons: 1) I knew I would only need about 30 Swordsmen to take care of the Mongols, which costs only 1200 Gold in upgrades, 2) with all the expansion I was doing I was actually Shield-constrained and not Gold-constrained. I suppose I could have put the Gold "in the bank" for the much-later Cavalry upgrade phase, but I guess I simply could not keep my greedy hands off those slaves (which, for some reason, were ubiquitous in the trade screen). It's not at all obvious to figure out if this was the best play, but it worked for me here, so at least it was a "good" play.

In ~1100BC the Babylonians and the Romans enter the Medieval age, which causes a Barb uprising of 30! Horsemen (that's an exclamation point, not a factorial) to appear right inside an area relatively close to my core that I had not expanded into yet (because I knew the AIs would not steal it from me). My defenses are not so "paper thin" in this game: I have ~15 Warriors, 4 Horsemen and 4 Archers on hand. However, it would simply be annoying to lose Warriors destined to be Swordsmen to stupid Barbs (remember that I was Shield-constrained not Gold-constrained, so that 10-Shield Warriors were actually very precious).

Below is a screenshot of the "action". A few things to notice:

1. The Indians, through their super-cheap Temples and rapid expansion, have denied me Incense at Buffalo (at least I got the Horses!).

2. Boston, Seattle, New York and Chicago are my "breakbasket" cities. Each (IIRC) has a Granary and is producing nothing but Workers/Settlers (I'll come back to this later, but Seattle and Boston in particular produced nothing but a Granary then Workers throughout my entire game so far, and it's now ~500AD and the beginning of the Industrial era!).

3. The Worker on the Cattle is luring a Barb Horsemen away from their main stack and into the open. This is expensive since I originally bought that Worker for over 100 Gold, but it's not so bad when you consider that I would lose ~50 Gold if the Horsemen ransacked one of my cities, and that my military units are far more important that Gold (I've mentioned this twice already!).

4. The stack just below the Barb stacks is Horsemen and Archers. I feel I have good odds of winning since the Barbs have to cross and River and will fall under AU mod Archer fire, but nonetheless I think this is the right play (to sacrifice Horsemen) because my Warriors will be more important in the short-term.

In all, I think I lost 3 slave Workers, 2 Horsemen and 2 Archers in the Barb uprising (remember, that's against 25 Barb Horsemen).

[Dominae]

Fast-forward and handful of turns to 975BC, and most of the AI civs are also in the Medieval era, save the Mongols, Spanish and Indians.

This is where I make the first big mistake of the game: with only Currency and Philosophy as required techs in the Medieval era, I trade for Currency in order to make a little profit by selling it to Indian and Spain (not Mongolia because Swordsmen versus Pikemen is not fun). As you may have spotted, I've effectively denied myself The Republic until after I deal with the Mongols; I cannot trade for Philosophy without entering the Medieval era, and I cannot declare war on Mongolia without provocation if I advance (due to the @$% rules of this scenario!). The net effect is that the AI civ's tech advantage will be further magnified in the Medieval era due to the fact that I will be switching governments much later. I reject the idea of going for Monarchy, because: 1) it's an expensive tech, 2) no one has researched it yet, and 3) I do not plan to be doing enough warfare in the near-future to justify and additional period of Anarchy.

Below is a screenshot of my loss of Horses to superior Indian Culture (Buffalo was not originally an Indian city). I feel a heavy dose of fear here, as I'm surrounded by Religious civs (save the Mongols) which are expanding faster than I am and are pushing my borders back with Culture. Also visible in the screenshot is the rout of the Barb Horsemen, and the intricate dance required to deal with them as painlessly as possible (for instance, the use of the Settler as a lure instead of founding a city right away).

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Dominae
(due to the @$% rules of this scenario!)

Glad to see you're having fun with the game Dom. Can't wait to see the rest of your game.

Originally posted by Dominae
I had acquired ~25 slaves on the international slave market

I wonder if this will be further modified in Conquests? I don't know if you've read my Immortal Storm DAR yet, but I made good use of the same tactic in BCV. It's something the human player can exploit, but the AI has no chance of doing the same.

[Dominae]

Between 975BC and 750BC, I try to draw up a list of things to cheer me up with respect to this game, but all I can come up with is:

1. I'm stuck in the Ancient era, and will only transition a full 10-20 turns after the AI civs.
2. I'm stuck in Despotism until the Mongols are gone.
3. I've no source Horses.
4. I've no Culture to speak of, and the Indians, Iroquois and Babylonians are rapidly stealing tiles from my border cities.
5. I can no longer expand (still cannot build the FP).
6. I'll probably not have enough troops to decimate the uber-militaristic Mongols.
7. America is not a Scientific civ.

As you can imagine, efforts to cheer myself up do not work.

In order to risk not falling too far behind, I decide to attack the Mongols a little earlier than planned. The following forces available:

22 Swordsmen
4 Horsemen
2 Archers
2 Spearmen
2 Scout!!

The plan is to hit as many Mongol borders towns as realistically possible in one turn, and hope that their counter-attack is weak (sweet plan, eh?). Just to cover my butt, I sign a Military Alliance with India against the Mongols for my World Map and 108 Gold. My next target is the Indians for various reasons (namely my loss of Incense to their stupid Culture), and so having them lose units to the Mongols beforehand makes sense.

But wait a minute! A quick check at the Military Advisor screen informs me that I'm Average in military relative to all the major world powers (Germans, Romans and Japanese), and Strong relative to everyone else, including the Mongols! Hope, how missed thee!

Below is a screenshot of the turn I declare war on the Mongols and move my stacks within their territory. I have stacks ready to hit Kazan, Ulanbaatar, Almarikh and Choybalsan next turn (the first three are visible in the screenshot). Notice that the Mongols do not have Feudalism yet!

[Dominae]

And below is a screenshot of the following turn, after a successful attack on each the four targets listed in the previous attack. The Mongol counter-attack was pitiful (something like a Swordsman, two Horsemen and a handful of Archers)! I thought the Mongols were supposed to be crazy war fanatics like the Zulu!

Upon conquering these four cities, I was able to begin construction of the Forbidden Palace. I'm not going to stop my DAR here, however, as I feel that the end of the Mongol war is a far more logical end to this block in my game. Not to worry, the Mongols fell pretty fast, so this thread should remain coherent (except for Theseus' posts: you still could not build the FP in 500AD?!?).