SMC orders 1784

[shade]

All seems to be going well.

First of all, as SMC it's my job to ask for better and more military units.

More units isn't the real problem...better units, on the other hand, is a must.
We have Leonardo's Workshop. This would enable us to upgrade the antiquated musketmen to real riflemen, doubbling their numbers(44->90).(46 companies could then start living without the fear their musket might blow up in their face )

Also our dragoons might be strong, but still many of them will be killed when attacking a walled city. Re-educating them to become Cavalry would make them almost invincible. ( 5/2/2 - 2/1 --> 8/3/2 - 2/1 )

But there is also sad news...This beautiful tech will only come in 40 turns!(this could be reduced to 20)...Maybe the citizens might want to go to our science minister and ask him to speed things up so their sons have a greater chance of coming back home alive.

Now back to business:
First South America(or what is left of it).
Bombay
Attackplan:
1)The diplomat bribes the dragoon(this turn)
2)The fresh dragoon coud be used to take a look around near bombay
3)If there are roads(on the grassland) the Diplomat could move immediatly to Bombay and do the money thing(next turn).(if there are no roads it should move to the mined hill and the next turn to Bombay)
(in maximum 2 turns the city should be ours.

Barbarians
Idefix:
A cannon from idefix could easily take out the Knight at point 1. While the dragoon at idefix could be moved to location to take out the other knight(s) next turn.

America
Detroit:
There is an enormous army approaching(but it will take a dozen turns to get them in place)
Number of units in the red circles:
Fanatics:13
Diplos:6
Cannons:8
Riflemen:2
Settlers:2
Dragoons:1
Unknown:3(there were 12 units in one square)
I suggest we also build an instafortTM here and pile up the troops. Use the diplomats to get rid of the walls(first use one to check what Detroit has as defences and troops) and then just whipe their defences out.(this could be done just before finishing next session(~12 turns max))

Except for there battles I don't think we have the troops near enough to any other cities.

Also: to defend Washington we could send in the Dragoon from Styx(which is wounded to the yellow)
and next turn send in the remains of our army(2fanatics,2 cannons, a rifle and a diplomat)

Although We might not be able to take out any other cities manu militari we can always just try to bribe them(if the price is right)

Screenshots will come to help with these tough decisions.

3 days to vote
Shade SMC

[shade]

our current military

[shade]

The barbarian problem

[shade]

Bombay, our future

[shade]

and finally Detroit and the army of the 12 monkeys

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Good plans, IMO.

The army near Detroit was/is marking time and could also be sent S to knock off the Zulus. The riflemen unit NE of Detroit has a diplomat stacked with it; that could be used to bribe the city.

Also, what about bribing Boston, New York, Philadelphia.?.. all those cities have Diplomats within range.

[cavebear]

I think these are good plans also.

Bribing Bombay will save having to send an army there, and it will eliminate a potential source of disruptive Diplomats in our midst who might tempt our Citizens in nearby cities to revolt. I hope the cost is low at the moment because of the lack of an American capital and its distance from other American cities.

[atawa]

Good plans, but what about bribing the remaining American city's and sending the army south to Zulu and Germans?

[shade]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Also, what about bribing Boston, New York, Philadelphia.?.. all those cities have Diplomats within range.

that would be option D1

yes we could bribe it, but I love massacre

Good plans, but what about bribing the remaining American city's and sending the army south to Zulu and Germans?

Cfr above.
+ atm we have ~2000G(making 250-300/turn)
the Americans have 10 cities left of which we have located 8(2 short)

the Americans are a republic and have only big cities(size8 and more, bribing such things will cost at least 500G->2000G/city)
With our current amount of cash I guess we could bribe 3 cities if we are lucky.We have an army approaching 1 of their cities so we can use troops, they are in the area already.(btw Zulu cities seem quite small(=cheap) ... I rather would use cash there)

attacking the germans is a little to soon I think, they have 15 cities(only 3 known to us so we have no idea what we are up against).

btw what do you all think about trying to get Tactics a little faster(40turns=1 cabinet=looooong)
cavalry would be a great asset don't you think?

Shade

[cavebear]

Trying to bribe our way through the American cities would be very expensive. I think it would be best to focus on the whole American civ first, with bribes in the cheapest most far-flung cities and militarily conquering their core cities after a Diplomat assault takes down the City Walls. With the large American cities in our hands, with their productivity and fertile locations, we will use those to support an even larger army while producing greater gold each turn.

[Sparrowhawk]

Bribe whatever city we can, but focus on the Americans. Without their capital now is the time to take them down, the Germans and Zulus will follow soon enough. It seems a waste to send all those units to bombay or detroit if we could bribe it with one diplomat.

Whatever direction we are sending our armies, we should not look at it as an ending point, but as a beginning. (meaning don't be sending them to cities at a dead end...there should be another city(ies) for them to attack further on, we would not want our units to have to turn around and move back the way they have just come)

/me offering more opinions and more options take both for what they are worth

[Ben Kenobi]

Bribing Bombay will save having to send an army there, and it will eliminate a potential source of disruptive Diplomats in our midst who might tempt our Citizens in nearby cities to revolt. I hope the cost is low at the moment because of the lack of an American capital and its distance from other American cities.

Noted, that's what I'm going to poll.

So many cities, not enough cash.

[cavebear]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Whatever direction we are sending our armies, we should not look at it as an ending point, but as a beginning. (meaning don't be sending them to cities at a dead end...there should be another city(ies) for them to attack further on, we would not want our units to have to turn around and move back the way they have just come)

I agree our armies should pay attention to efficient movement and not getting left out in the middle of nowhere when they have completed their immediate goals. I certainly wouldn't want our army approaching Detroit to go on to New York then to Boston et al, and find themselves far from where needed next.

My thoughts are that, from Detroit, the army there can start to sweep south through the unexplored area where we can start on the Zulus and find out more about the Germans/Russians. But we *do* want to take over the American cities first (hence, attacking Detroit) so we don't have to worry about them any more.

It seems to me that we have enough cities in the north area around the American core to support the attack there. Our other groups of cities should begin to focus efforts locally on the other civs they are near. We can build more units in those places and leave them in cities until we have a proper and balanced force gather and send out.

This process is already underway, thanks to the efforts of atawa and STYOM in the previous years. Many of our cities are holding military strength far in excess to their defensive needs. I expect the SMC to take note of these situations and suggest assertive actions.

No blame to the previous administration for this, as this near-embarassment of military strength only occurred with the acquisition of Washington and Leo's Workshop at the very end of their administration. We are only in the excellent position we find ourselves in now due to their efforts and play. But it is time, now, to make use of this abundance and power.

Devastation, for example, has 2 Fanatics, a Dragoon, and a Musketeer in City Walls. Surely no enemy attack could threaten a city like that far from other civs. Other cities relatively safe from attack have similar available units. Some of these units can start to gather closer to the enemy to form the beginning of an army too powerful to be resisted.

The details of such actions are, of course, the province of the SMC and he understands these things perfectly well (I have absolute confidence in SMC Shade, the most proven Minister of War our game has ever had). I'm just suggesting some very general overall strategic plans that should be considered in our long-term plans for this month.

Hmmm, this became a bit longer than I expected.

[Ben Kenobi]

We need more engineers.

I notice that very few of the 34 engineers we have are working on Railroads between our core cities.

That should take higher priority over even more military units at this point, because once we establish and internal network of railroads, we can ship our units wherever they are needed.

So ljcvetko ought to get started on these Engineers, which will be a huge boon to our SMC.

[shade]

where is our science minister?

[cavebear]

I anticipate seeing a poll from our City-Planner soon. He has asked me some very good questions and is preparing to conduct a very difficult job as quickly as possible. It will take him a little more time to develop polls, being new to this task (as we all were once), but I have no doubt he will do a good job of it once he tries things out. I was quite uncertain about posting polls the first time I tried it too.

I am pleased to see the SMC and FM polls up. I look forward to seeing the Science Minister and City-Planner polls up later today. It would be good to see the polls all up "today" (time zones and all that) so that there will be 3 days of voting/discussion (Sun-Tues) and reports on Wednesday so I can play Wednesday or Thursday.

[Ljube]

This is my first post as member of President Cavebear’s cabinet and I regret to be the sole voice of dissent.

I voted against this plan in all of its details.
Allow me to explain why.

We have a treasury of 1974 gold. We should put it to good use. I suggest we stop losing time with Americans and don’t send any more units towards them. Instead, let’s bribe them away since they don’t have the capital any more.

According to the Great Library the following formula applies to the cost for city bribe:

Price of a city = (civ’s treasury + 1000)/(distance + 3)*(city size)
Coefficient = (civ’s treasury + 1000)/(distance + 3)

If a civ has no capital distance = 16, American coefficient = 73

Prices of American cities:

Boston, Sent Luis, Philadelphia – 876
New York – 730
Detroit – 657
Bombay – 584
Atlanta – 438

New York is size 10 for sure, but Detroit, Bombay and Atlanta may be larger than the sizes that show.

If any of the cities is in disorder the sum required for a successful bribe is halved.
If any of the cities has a courthouse, distance is no longer 16 but 8 and the Coefficient = 127.

To put Americans in history books we need to maximise the taxes and to sell all unneeded improvements to get the required money. I suggest we start eliminating the ballast by selling city walls in all of our cities first. As Mr. President has already noted, we have ample defences in our cities, so we shouldn’t fear any attack.
The next to come are the libraries and universities (only after we have discovered tactics which we may decide to speed up after the demise of America).

Secondly, I suggest we stop producing so many military units and focus on tax improvements instead. We should only produce canon and only in cities containing barracks. The cities without barracks should focus on diplomats. In addition, we should try and build barracks in each of our border cities. It is also imperative we locate Pharsalos and bribe it.

I also suggest our engineers build roads first and irrigation later (to maximise the money). I shall also suggest the rearrangement of workers to maximise the money output.

So, my plan is:

1. Bribe Boston

2. Bribe New York

3. Sell city walls

4. Don’t bribe American dragoon (WE NEED THE MONEY FOR AMERICAN CITIES). Move fanatics and diplo combo away to 79, 91.

5. Approach Detroit with rifleman and diplo combo (36, 38)

6. The troops heading for Detroit move towards Zululand

7. Bribe Detroit next turn selling aqueducts if needed

8. Continue in the same way

[cavebear]

I don't know about that. I tried it on some old games, and that formula didn't seem to work. I'm not the world's most experienced person at observing the pattern of bribe-costs, though. If it's worth it I do it, if not, I don't. But I could be wrong based on what governments etc the civs were. Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to discuss the costs of bribery under the specific situation we are in.

[shade]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
According to the Great Library the following formula applies to the cost for city bribe:

Price of a city = (civ’s treasury + 1000)/(distance + 3)*(city size)
Coefficient = (civ’s treasury + 1000)/(distance + 3)

If a civ has no capital distance = 16, American coefficient = 73

Prices of American cities:

Boston, Sent Luis, Philadelphia – 876
New York – 730
Detroit – 657
Bombay – 584
Atlanta – 438

Somehow I think the pressence of wonders will shoot this straight to hell

So, my plan is:

1. Bribe Boston

2. Bribe New York

3. Sell city walls

4. Don’t bribe American dragoon (WE NEED THE MONEY FOR AMERICAN CITIES). Move fanatics and diplo combo away to 79, 91.

5. Approach Detroit with rifleman and diplo combo (36, 38)

6. The troops heading for Detroit move towards Zululand

7. Bribe Detroit next turn selling aqueducts if needed

8. Continue in the same way

4.= get hunted and killed or just step into an ambush ...=lose diplo=takes a lot of turns to get an other one there(the Dragoon won't be that expensive(and will prob be a NONE))

Selling stuff might be great, when the game is almost finished but we are just starting our fights. There are still some >60 cities which we need to conquer...and that won't happen over night.

Shade

[Ljube]

According to the Great Library the following formula applies to the cost for unit bribe:

Price of a unit = (civ’s treasury + 750)/(distance + 2)*(number of shields)*0.05
Coefficient = (civ’s treasury + 750)/(distance + 2)

American Coefficient = 63
Price for dragoons = 157

Too much for a useless unit by my standards (half of our net income).

Wonders don’t influence the price of cities.

I wasn’t suggesting we should sell temples or such. Only useless improvements.

[shade]

dragoons are the best we have atm...and cavalry won't be comming soon.
This unit might prove very usefull clearing the path for our diplo and fanatic, It's not because we don't see any units between them and Bombay there couldn't be any.
(anything further then 1 square from those units is invisible.)

Shade

[Ljube]

Dragoons may be our best unit, but they are far from the unit we need.

The money is needed for bribing cities.
A lone dragoon can do nothing against Bombay.

Here's the route to Bombay I propose.

[atawa]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
Prices of American cities:

Boston, Sent Luis, Philadelphia – 876
New York – 730
Detroit – 657
Bombay – 584
Atlanta – 438

When we attack the American city's our cannons will destroy many of the city's improvements, if we can get about half of the bribing cost back by selling improvements I would say bribe the riverbasin, S-America, Atlanta and New York.

Cavebear is making a good point when he says:

My thoughts are that, from Detroit, the army there can start to sweep south through the unexplored area where we can start on the Zulus and find out more about the Germans/Russians. But we *do* want to take over the American cities first (hence, attacking Detroit) so we don't have to worry about them any more.

In the meantime we can get some roading/railroading to Zulu's done. I would propose we use the bulk of our engineers to make a RR to Zululand asap.

Btw, can we have another 25 or so engineers?
Our attackspeed will depend largely on how fast we can build railroads to our enemy's and we have a lot of work to do.

When finished it could look something like this, first stage being the red lines, second blue after we have taken the remainiing american city's and third the orange railroad to Greeks for the final blow.

[Sparrowhawk]

I don't like the idea of selling any of our city improvements, as shade has correctly pointed out they take too long to build to consider selling them. (only exception: Granaries)

I think we should be bribing Detroit rather then attacking it, and as such we need more information about what else surrounds Detroit (should that army continue to move towards Detroit in anticipation of sending it on from there or should it move in another direction and let the diplomats (with escort) take Detroit?)

atawa's map above helps someone in showing the 8 American cities we have located, but it might be helpful if we could match names to locations (for those of us without the benefit of the save)

/me Citizen of the Apolyton Imperium

[cavebear]

I agree it is time to build a RR network. That's why we worked hard to get the RR tech after all. Investment in a RR network now will make our lives easier the whole rest of the game. Atawa's general diagram looks good!

[shade]

A lone dragoon can do nothing against Bombay.

I wasn't planning of using it aginst Bombay, I intend to use it agains possible units which might be outside Bombay, hereby clearing the path for our diplo.

The railroad plan above looks very good, that would give us the possibility of ruling this planet.

Sparrow: the cities...lets try by hard:
the most south one is Bombay
the middle one is Detroit with a little north of it New York
Boston, St Louis and Philadelphia are the trio.
(that is if I'm not mistaken )

Shade

[cavebear]

"lets try by hard"

I don't understand that one. Sorry.

[Sparrowhawk]

and the one south of Detoit?

[shade]

Originally posted by cavebear
"lets try by hard"

I don't understand that one. Sorry.

(I meant without looking at the save...sorry )

Shade

[Zedd]

ljcvetko:

The vowelless one has a good point, By bribing a city and consequently selling some of the improvments gained we will still have come out better than attacking and killing 1/2 the pop and destroying 1/2 the structures at a loss of at least one of our units. As far as selling existing structures I think a case by case basis for this approach is needed. Banks and universities in citie where there is a gain of only 2-3 gold or beakers are not worh the price when we could ZEN on worker for no reacurring cost.