Some More General Questions...

Zapaan · October 5, 2003, 02:12

Taking a look through the various FAQs here at Apolyton, I noticed that none of them answered several questions that keep popping into my head as I'm playing. Hopefully some of you might be able to answer them for me.

1. Are AI Civs effected by war weariness even a little? I've been at war with the entire planet (all 16 civs) for well over 100 years. When I started the beginning of this 100 year war, I was Democracy and by the second year (which btw, is insanely too short for war weariness to start kicking in), half my cities went into uproar over the conflict (about 25 as I recall). By the 5th year, I was producing absolutely nothing due to the number of entertainers and general entertainment budget I had to shell out. Even in my capital where I've got assloads of luxuries, and pretty much every city improvement capable outside of the modern era, I had a shield production of something like 5 (normally producing about 70 or 80 I believe). So of course, I signed a peace treaty and switched over to Monarchy the next turn. I then proceeded to get the AI civs to declare war on me, and subsequently ignoring all communications from everyone, thus forcing them to deal with war weariness forever. But they're still churning out units, improvements, and judging by my spies, don't appear to be suffering ANY ill effects from war weariness, despite the fact that they're all either a Democracy or Republics. How the hell is that even remotely fair? Does war weariness dissipate over time or something even though you're at war?

2. Is there any way to get access to nuclear weapons without initiating the Manhattan Project? I'm assuming not, but I'm wondering if there is. And I know that the only option to controlling nuclear arms is to control all the uranium deposits, but it seems silly that if I discover the secrets of the atom that EVERYONE should be able to reap the benefits of my research. And what happens if the civs I'm dealing with are still in like the industrial era? Do they suddenly have the ability to build tactical nukes, yet can't build tanks? I'm assuming that they still need to research the rest of the tech required to build them?

3. When a wonder becomes obsolete, is there any point in keeping them? Aside from their cultural value of course. And what about things like aqueducts? Once you have a hospital, should I simply remove them since they take up a maintenance cost yet don't appear to give any benefit?

4. Where's the "Give me X city or I'll crush you like a bug" diplomacy option? And speaking of diplomacy, is there any way to make your offer more appealing without adding something to the pile? It seems to me that the other civs ALWAYS demand ludicrous crap for their useless crap, yet when I offer them something of actual value, they demand more. Perfect example, I offered the Indians a territory map exchange. I control about 40% of the world's land masses with something in the area of 50 cities and have uncovered everything except 2 small island continents owned by the Indians and the Egyptians. At most, they had 8-12 cities on those continents, yet when I offered the exchange, the Indians were insulted by my offer. WTF?! All you've got is a measly little island! I control 6 continents you retard! I considered the possibility that they had mapped out the areas that I controlled, but I don't see how since they still had yet to discover magnetism, and were still shuffling about with Caravels at the time. And speaking of value, how is it fair that the AI can tell that your map is of X value, when you have no way of knowing at all?

5. Why in the world is stealing technology so cheap in the espionage menu? It's crazy how easy it is to steal everything! The cost needs to be ramped up a minimum of 10 times. At the least it needs to correlate with either civ specific ratings for security and xenophobia, or some kind of government related setting (ie. democracy being easier to steal from than say despotism or the like). In games like this, technology is the deciding factor in who has the advantage throughout the game. If you make it this easy to steal it, you remove the need to even research anything. And no, being slightly behind your opponents is NOT enough of a deterent, as I've managed to win conquest victories without researching anything at all, and bending my entire civ's focus to an industrial one, giving me ample money to steal ALL the tech from all civs by the following turn they discover it. It's slower in discovery than if I had researched myself, but it also allows me to carry an insanely huge army and nearly rush build in every major city almost every turn. Granted, by the end of the game, we're rarely out of the Industrial era, but it doesn't really matter when by 1800 you've got somewhere in the 3000 military units area. Further, is there ANY defense against tech theft? It seems ludicrous that I have no security defense at all in this area.

6. Is there any way to stop a civ from establishing an embassy? It seems to me that I should be asked if I'll allow another civ to establish an embassy on my soil. The only solution that I can think of is to commit genocide on the offending civ

It seems even more ludicrous that they (the AI) can establish an embassy at any time, but I'm limited to peacetime establishements only. Is there a way to remove the embassy once they've established one? The entire espionage element of the game seem woefully ill conceived. It needs some serious rework to even be remotely reasonable and fair to all parties.

Wow, long post

Sorry for the length, and happy thanks to any answers! Apologies if a lot of these are common knowledge now, but I haven't touched Civ3 for almost...seems like 2 years? Anyway, suffice to say, it's taken over my life again

- Z

Gramphos · October 5, 2003, 04:42

@1: See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=61628 for an understanding on how WW works. If your sightings can suit with what's in there there is nothing to be concerned of.

Jaybe · October 5, 2003, 04:56

Quote:

2. Is there any way to get access to nuclear weapons without initiating the Manhattan Project? I'm assuming not, but I'm wondering if there is. And I know that the only option to controlling nuclear arms is to control all the uranium deposits, but it seems silly that if I discover the secrets of the atom that EVERYONE should be able to reap the benefits of my research. And what happens if the civs I'm dealing with are still in like the industrial era? Do they suddenly have the ability to build tactical nukes, yet can't build tanks? I'm assuming that they still need to research the rest of the tech required to build them?

Someone (anyone) building MProject is required before nuc weapons can be built. The only nuc weapons are Tactical Missile (Space Flight) and ICBM (Satellites).

I don't like the idea of nuc secrets being leaked to other civs, so I made the MProject a SMALL Wonder. There was a bug regarding this, so you need at least PTW 1.21 (1.27 is the latest) to make it a small wonder and have it work as intended.

Jaybe · October 5, 2003, 05:00

Quote:

3. When a wonder becomes obsolete, is there any point in keeping them? Aside from their cultural value of course. And what about things like aqueducts? Once you have a hospital, should I simply remove them since they take up a maintenance cost yet don't appear to give any benefit?

You cannot sell wonders. Dont' think you can sell aqueducts or hospitals, either. OTOH, I seem to recall having a metro but no hospital once, and the city wouldn't grow until it was rebuilt.

Jaybe · October 5, 2003, 05:06

4. re Diplomacy & Trades:
Being larger than another civ gives you advantages, and also makes things worth more to you. ESPECIALLY luxuries. (Sorry if this has already been discussed in another thread, recently).

There is always the "Accept this or Else!" option. Almost never works: they refuse, then you declare war (or not). I don't bother ever using it.

Zapaan · October 5, 2003, 06:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramphos
@1: See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=61628 for an understanding on how WW works. If your sightings can suit with what's in there there is nothing to be concerned of.

I don't know how accurate that thread is. According to the calculations observed in that thread, ALL the civs in my game should be well into the 100+ wwp. Yet none of them seem to be taking any ill effects from WW. As I mentioned, I've been at war for over 100 years with all the civs in the game, and I've razed at least 10 cities for each (strictly to try to ramp up the WW), but they still are cranking out units (especially the damn Romans) like there's no tomorrow. When I use my spies to investigate their cities, each have little to no unhappy citizens (at least not beyond the normal one or two from overcrowding).

And while those numbers may reflect WW for you the player, it doesn't show any evidence of any kind towards the AI suffering from it.

Has anyone noticed an enemy civ's cities suffering from WW in any games they've played? I'm fairly sure that the rules for WW are different for AI. At least it appears that way.

- Z

Zapaan · October 5, 2003, 06:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
I don't like the idea of nuc secrets being leaked to other civs, so I made the MProject a SMALL Wonder. There was a bug regarding this, so you need at least PTW 1.21 (1.27 is the latest) to make it a small wonder and have it work as intended.

I like that idea. Another edit to the bix file

- Z

PeaSoup · October 5, 2003, 12:35

I think the AI gets a base happiness bonuses on higher difficulties. Plus if you declared war on the AI, they would actually get negative WW which translates to happier citizens.

This is why I love getting civs whom I've been thinking of conquering pissed off at me so that they declare war sooner or later and I get the happiness bonuses.

works great for small or far away civs as well

Datajack Franit · October 5, 2003, 12:52

Exact- if you play Emperor level (as I always do) you definitely already noticed AI huge advantages in production, trade, technology share rate and content/happy citizens rate- I guess the others factions use Chieftain-related content/happy rate, while you need 10 times the effort to produce the same effect

vmxa1 · October 5, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapaan
Has anyone noticed an enemy civ's cities suffering from WW in any games they've played? I'm fairly sure that the rules for WW are different for AI. At least it appears that way.

- Z

Did they switch to communism?

WarpStorm · October 5, 2003, 14:38

Good point, vmxa1. The governments Despotism, Communism, and Monarchy do not suffer from WW at all. The AI will typically switch to one of these once WW gets too high.

vmxa1 · October 5, 2003, 14:49

This is what players like to do to the AI, force them to switch to a less effective form of government.
I think that was what the AU mod tried to address.

Zapaan · October 6, 2003, 07:43

As I mentioned in the first post, no, they're all Democracy or Republic. None of them have switched government types at all during this extended confrontation.

- Z

CerberusIV · October 6, 2003, 07:58

If you have spies then you should be at the tech level to build Universal Suffrage and police stations, both of which will keep a lid on WW.

Embassies give a look at your capital city and allow diplomatic options, that's about all. You get to do the same options to them so what's the problem?

WarpStorm · October 6, 2003, 09:36

Were they winning the war? That makes a difference.

Zapaan · October 6, 2003, 21:34

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV
If you have spies then you should be at the tech level to build Universal Suffrage and police stations, both of which will keep a lid on WW.

Embassies give a look at your capital city and allow diplomatic options, that's about all. You get to do the same options to them so what's the problem?

If you read my first post, you'll see the results after only 5 years of war while I was a Democracy. As for US and police stations, they barely help IMO, especially when the bulk of your cities are +20 and 19 are unhappy due to WW. Regardless, that wasn't the question. The question was, why don't AI civs suffer ANY ill effects from WW even though they're the instigators, are Democracy or Republic, and should have easily in the +100 WWP. The problem is they don't appear to be affected by WW at all.

As for Embassies, the problem is, I don't WANT them to have access to that information, and it's ludicrous that I have no option to deny them access to my soil, as apparently all it takes is for them to have enough money to establish one. I don't have any choice in the matter. It's entirely idiotic.

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Were they winning the war? That makes a difference.

Not even remotely. Though I don't see why that should make any kind of difference (from a logic perspective), since WW should apply regardless of status of the conflict.

- Z

PeaSoup · October 7, 2003, 04:02

Well, to answer your question about AI and WW, I've noticed that the AI does suffer from WW when fighting extended periods of time..

especially if 2 neighboring AIs are fighting each other since the AI is so poor at protecting its attacking units, losses are fairly high for both sides, and WW kicks in very soon so the AI all changed governments.

and if I'm not mistaken, it sounds like you are warring with every AI civ, so the accumulated WW from so many battles is bound to add up really fast.

I'd probably keep a closer eye on the military advisor screen to check the AI's government to see if they've changed away from rep or demo.

Also, the AI workers irrigate so many tiles that they usually have so many extra citizens made into entertainers to remain productive, so use your spies to check the AI cities.. you'll notice they get progressly unhappier as the war goes on.

And the US and police stations do help to reduce WW. I've successfully been at war with a single AI opponent for 80+ turns while being in demo by having all lux (traded or otherwise), having happiness wonders and improvments, having the lux slider at 20%, having the US and police stations, and having 2 much smaller civs declare war on me, but not doing any fighting (which gave me negative WW).

So you could try combating WW, or take on 1 or 2 AI at one time.... or switching governments.

Zapaan · October 7, 2003, 08:27

Quote:

Originally posted by PeaSoup
Well, to answer your question about AI and WW, I've noticed that the AI does suffer from WW when fighting extended periods of time..

especially if 2 neighboring AIs are fighting each other since the AI is so poor at protecting its attacking units, losses are fairly high for both sides, and WW kicks in very soon so the AI all changed governments.

and if I'm not mistaken, it sounds like you are warring with every AI civ, so the accumulated WW from so many battles is bound to add up really fast.

I'd probably keep a closer eye on the military advisor screen to check the AI's government to see if they've changed away from rep or demo.

Again, I've been at war for over 100 years/turns, and using spies to look at every city (ALL of them), and aside from the normal 2-5 entertainers that the AI will employ to combat large sized cities, not a single civ is suffering adversely from WW, while still (+100 years/turns) remaining Democracy or Republics.

I don't want to sound rude here, but this is the third time I've had to repeat this, please read what the first post says people.

Quote:

Also, the AI workers irrigate so many tiles that they usually have so many extra citizens made into entertainers to remain productive, so use your spies to check the AI cities.. you'll notice they get progressly unhappier as the war goes on.

Once again, they are NOT suffering from WW. Aside from the normal 2-5 entertainers that the AI will usually have due to overpopulation, they are not suffering in any way that I can see, while still remaining Democracy or Republic for over 100 years/turns.

Quote:

And the US and police stations do help to reduce WW. I've successfully been at war with a single AI opponent for 80+ turns while being in demo by having all lux (traded or otherwise), having happiness wonders and improvments, having the lux slider at 20%, having the US and police stations, and having 2 much smaller civs declare war on me, but not doing any fighting (which gave me negative WW).

I realize they have an effect, I'm saying they don't have any decent effect when you have +150 cities almost all of which are +20 and virtually all your citizens are unhappy due to WW. US alleviates 1 unhappy citizen making them content in all cities, whoopee. Police stations alleviate about 20-25% of the WW effect in that city (note that it's the EFFECT, not the number of unhappy citizens) which eventually translates to 1-2 unhappy citizens becoming content. Again, they're useless for the cost/build time IMO, especially when talking about extended campaigns.

But yet again, this isn't the problem. What I'm saying is, the AI who are the INSTIGATORS of the war (all of them) are not suffering from WW in the slightest. It's possible they may have suffered some effects very early on in the conflict (I have no way of knowing), but now, +100 years/turns later, they appear to be suffering no ill effects, despite having multiple cities razed, losing in the +100 units each, at least 20-30 turns with units inside my borders as well as mine within theirs, and most having lost at least one capital. They should each be suffering HUGE penalties, but not a single one has any citizens complaining about the war and are all producing units and various improvements as though nothing was out of the ordinary. And no, I didn't accept any peace treaties during this time, I've been completely ignoring all of them, trying to get them to suffer the penalties of WW, but it appears they simply don't.

I assume by the types of responses I'm seeing that none of you have ever encountered this before, or are simply not understanding or reading what I'm saying here.

- Z