New SMAX PBEM with 4 players & CMN

Minute Mirage · October 6, 2003, 02:55

I'm looking to start a new SMAX PBEM with around 4 human players. I'm hoping to get a quick rate of turns, preferably around one day, so reliable players would be very much appreciated. A CMN is also required to set up the game.

Settings:

Large map
Standard everything
Transcend difficulty
Directed research
No random events

The world creation settings can be adjusted. The players can take the faction they want or the CMN can randomly assign one to them. My faction of choice is the University.

I'm a PBEM newbie myself and I'm willing to learn how the game should really be played, so experienced players are welcome to join. Provided that they don't kill me within the first 10 years, that is. Other newbies are of course welcome to join, too.

It would be good if every player to join estimated when they are able to play, so a practical turn order could be found. I'm likely to be able to play between 18-21 GMT, 15-21 GMT on most days and very flexibly on weekends, taking into account that my time zone is GMT+2.

Rubin · October 6, 2003, 07:16

I would like to join. The settings are ideal (I'm willing to reduce the map size to standard, if required). However, 4 human players only!

I have very flexible hours. However, I am probably not able to teach you anything, Minute Mirage, as I'm still in the early learning phase of PBEM games. I can post my preferred set of house rules.

I'd like to try playing Domai's Free Drones.

Minute Mirage · October 6, 2003, 08:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Rubin
I would like to join. The settings are ideal (I'm willing to reduce the map size to standard, if required). However, 4 human players only!

I agree that more than 4 human players might make the game a bit too slow. However, if there's enough interest, I'd be willing to start two games at once and play in both of them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rubin
I have very flexible hours. However, I am probably not able to teach you anything, Minute Mirage, as I'm still in the early learning phase of PBEM games. I can post my preferred set of house rules.

I'd like to try playing Domai's Free Drones.

I think I'll learn a lot in any case, at least compared to single player games against the computer.

Concerning the rules, I don't have any particular preferences except that I'd like to allow crawler upgrading. If I'm not mistaken, it is already allowed under most standard rulesets.

jtsisyoda · October 6, 2003, 19:08

I'll join.
Rules/settings so far are fine.
Fast turns are good.

My usual times are 2000-0200 GMT weekdays, 1500-0200 GMT weekends.
I think I'll go with CyCon.

Rubin · October 6, 2003, 19:55

Oh my! I feel I'm already far behind in the technology race ... and the game hasn't even begun yet

Minute Mirage: I'd like to send you an optional set of house rules. Can you provide me with you e-mail address?

My e-mail: rubin_datalinks AT hotmail DOT com

Minute Mirage · October 6, 2003, 20:04

My email adress:

minutemirage AT hotmail DOT com

Anyway, what would your feelings be if the CMN disabled free techs and alien artifacts from pods ala Googlie in the DG? I think this might eliminate a bit of randomness, which I'd like to keep at a minimum.

Rubin · October 6, 2003, 23:04

Well, I would have an even harder time getting technologies, wouldn't I?

Also, this benefits builder factions to a certain degree and penalizes momentum play. I don't think I would be in favor of such a change to the game. However, other players might and I am willing to trade my place for such a player.

jtsisyoda · October 6, 2003, 23:11

I agree with Rubin that it would benefit research factions too much for my taste.

Minute Mirage · October 7, 2003, 00:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Rubin
Well, I would have an even harder time getting technologies, wouldn't I?

Also, this benefits builder factions to a certain degree and penalizes momentum play. I don't think I would be in favor of such a change to the game. However, other players might and I am willing to trade my place for such a player.

Well, that is true to some extent, although I would be pretty upset if I got a non-beeline tech from a pod with the Drones, thus making research costs higher. I do agree that it makes the pods less useful overall, and in this way penalizes the players that like to explore more and pop more pods. It's completely OK to leave the pod settings to default.

I'll copy&paste the rules Rubin sent me (those that he meant to be in effect):

Quote:

§ 1. Turn Reload
You may not restart/reload a turn without good reason. Specify the reason if you are not able to avoid reloading the turn (e.g. reloading the game multiple times to get different Unity pod, combat or other effects).

§ 2. Player Contact
(1) You are not permitted to establish contact with another faction prior to having met them in-game or you have the Empath Guild.
(2) Player diplomacy is not permitted during sunspot activity. See § 10.

§ 3. Probe Action
(1) If you perform a probe team action other than to infiltrate against another player with whom you are in a truce, treaty or pact, you must inform the probed player what it was you did and what you stole/sabotaged (notify the victim of your transgression).
(2) You must choose the 'declare vendetta/cancel pact' option when you perform the action, unless you have received permission in advance.

§ 4. Social Engineering
You are not permitted to make more than one social engineering change per line, per turn (no flip-flop within turn!).

§ 5. Demand Withdrawal
You are not permitted to use the 'demand withdrawal' feature against another player.

§ 6. Planetary Council
(1) You may not accept a bribe from another player's AI during council sessions.
(2) If you call a meeting of the Planetary Council (or the first player to vote if the AI calls it), at first you have to send an email message to all of the other players stating: a) what is being voted on, b) what choices are available, c) if it a vote for governor then how many votes each faction gets (including vote totals - if applicable).This rule is necessary so that players who will vote near the end of the election have a chance to make promises and influence the votes of players who must vote earlier. The other players should post how they vote.
(3) As the players voting at the beginning of the circle don't get an information about the voting of the later factions, all players have to tell by email how they voted, so that all players the same information have about the voting of the others.

§ 7. Multiple Airdrops
You may not perform multiple airdrops or orbital insertions in a single turn with the same unit using the right-click menu. So is airdropping from outside a base/airbase, or after having moved (except on a magtube) using the same method. Using the 'I' key when you want an airdrop means you will automatically comply with these restrictions.

§ 8. F4 Screen
(1) You may not use the F4 screen when infiltrated to change an opponent's workers to specialists.

(2) You may not use the F4 screen to change your workers/drones/specialists into non-available/non-allowed specialists.

§ 9. Stockpile Energy
You may not insert stockpile energy into the build queue after the production of a military unit.

§ 11. Design Workshop Upgrade
(1) You may not upgrade a particular type of unit using the design workshop, and then attack with that unit in the same turn.
(2) Upgrading units with the design workshop is allowed at end of turn only. However, supply crawlers upgraded in this fashion can still be used to advance Secret Projects in the same turn.

§ 14. Reverse Engineering
You may use reverse engineering except with the rover chassis from Planetary Networks.

§ 15. Pending Diplomatic Agreement
If a player employs a tactic that causes a state of vendetta, they are not allowed to "accept" a pending diplomatic agreement with that faction in the same turn, causing a change in diplomatic status or the transfer of energy or knowledge (Example: You have been negotiating a treaty with another player, and the other player has accepted the treaty in the diplomacy window, but you have not. You perform an act that causes a state of vendetta between the two of you - build a new base in the other's territory, attack units or bases, etc. Now you are prohibited from accepting the treaty (and erasing the state of vendetta) until the other player has a chance to take back the diplomatic offer. It is OK to first accept the diplomatic offers and then do the act that causes a vendetta.)

§ 16. AI Base Exchange
No base trading with the AI. Extortion is allowed.

§ 17. Scenario Editor
Loading the game into the scenario editor is prohibited.

§ 18. Terraform Investment
Starting a terraforming operation in one square, cancelling it, moving to a different square, and then finishing it in that new square is prohibited in cases of "combat terraforming." This prevents "crediting up" a terraformer in a safe location and then moving it to a dangerous location where the terraforming is completed in one turn. An example of this would be using a sea former to sink an enemy coastal base - the sea former has to do all of the work in the target square where the enemy can retaliate.

§ 19. Pact Home Base
Setting the home of a unit to be the base of a pacted faction is prohibited.

§ 20. City Renaming
Don't rename a city to allow multiple artifacts to be connected to the same network node. Renaming allowed if bug is NOT exploited.

Everything seems fine to me, except that I'd ask a few points to be clarified:

§2: I assume "having met them in-game" means having obtained their commlink in-game one way or another, e.g. by trading or when someone has announced elections.

§4: I hope that we're allowed to test what effect the new settings have, i.e. we're allowed to make a change, look in the bases and the F2 screen to see its effects, and then undo the change if necessary.

Rubin · October 7, 2003, 06:31

Minute Mirage: You are of course right on §2 and §4. Thanks for clearing that out. I'll add your 'adjustments' to the default set.

Minute Mirage · October 8, 2003, 15:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Rubin
Minute Mirage: You are of course right on §2 and §4. Thanks for clearing that out. I'll add your 'adjustments' to the default set.

OK, sounds fine to me now.

Anyway, there's still one slot free for anyone who wishes to join.

Archaic · October 10, 2003, 07:11

Well, since your're having a CMN, it's possible to have duplicate factions, isn't it? If it's alright with all of you, and if we could set it up that way, I'd love to join in this game as the Uni. Ever since you joined up in the DTG with us MM, I've wanted to match my wits against you. You're certainly a far better technical player than I am. I think I could learn a lot by playing you.

If of course a duplicate faction can't be done, then I suppose I'll take the PK's.

As for the map...how about the CGN Vets League map?

Minute Mirage · October 10, 2003, 08:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Well, since your're having a CMN, it's possible to have duplicate factions, isn't it? If it's alright with all of you, and if we could set it up that way, I'd love to join in this game as the Uni.

Duplicate faction are fine by me, if someone knows how to set them up. Of course, both Rubin and jtsisyoda can change their faction choices if they want to.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Ever since you joined up in the DTG with us MM, I've wanted to match my wits against you. You're certainly a far better technical player than I am. I think I could learn a lot by playing you.

Thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I deserve it. I think I'll be the one to do a lot of learning from everyone involved and especially from you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
If of course a duplicate faction can't be done, then I suppose I'll take the PK's.

As for the map...how about the CGN Vets League map?

The Veterans map is fine by me, but I think we need to make the decision collectively. Here are my thoughts about the map:

Positive:

- starting positions are almost perfectly equal
- when the map is known beforehand, it is easy to do testing and to plan the movements before actually performing them
- the design of the map is interesting, with each faction having a choice between staying in their own corner or trying to claim the jungle in the middle
- the CMN has a much smaller task, since he doesn't have to create the map

Negative:

- the excitement and importance of exploring the map is reduced

I see that the map has no pods placed and I believe this is how the map is sed in the CGN veterans league. This is certainly fine with me, as it reduces randomness and makes the conditions truly equal with the factions. However, Rubin and and jtsisyoda seem to be in favor of the pods, so I assume they could be added to the map if we decide so?

Archaic · October 10, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
Thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I deserve it. I think I'll be the one to do a lot of learning from everyone involved and especially from you.

After the work I've seen you do with that Excel chart, and the micromanaging of the PUT in recent turns, I'd say you most certainly do. I'm very much an intuitive player. I have a number of basic strategies I try to stick to, which when done properly work rather well, but I have very little forward planning, something you seem to excel at.

Quote:

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
However, Rubin and and jtsisyoda seem to be in favor of the pods, so I assume they could be added to the map if we decide so?

I'd assume that's possible.

Minute Mirage · October 10, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic

After the work I've seen you do with that Excel chart, and the micromanaging of the PUT in recent turns, I'd say you most certainly do. I'm very much an intuitive player. I have a number of basic strategies I try to stick to, which when done properly work rather well, but I have very little forward planning, something you seem to excel at.

The excel chart doesn't tell anything about my abilities as a player and I don't feel I've done all that much micromanaging in the DG. But you are right that I'm quite fond of forward planning. In my only PBEM so far, the 'Blind Leaders' game, I've spent probably ten more times planning the turns than actually playing them. The veterans map with no pods interests me precisely because it allows one to plan very far into the future right from the beginning.

However, my problem is that I don't have much actual gaming experience. In single player, I like the early game and will often stop playing when I reach the former micromanaging hell of the middle game. I think I've only completed two actual games, so the late game is very much a mystery to me.

jtsisyoda · October 10, 2003, 15:11

Welcome, Archaic. This is getting interesting.

I vote for an unknown map, if we can find a CMN to provide one.

Minute Mirage · October 12, 2003, 09:05

We're still waiting for Rubin's comment on the map, and we need to find a CMN of course. Anyway, would this be a good turn order concerning everyone's time zones and playing times?

Minute Mirage
Rubin
jtsisyoda
Archaic

The CMN should determine the starting player randomly.

Rubin · October 12, 2003, 09:56

I vote for an unknown map. Ideally, I'd also prefer 7 different factions (i.e. no duplicates). Mostly because this adds more diverse options to the game.

I've been thinking of the AI opponents. One choice is to have the aliens along with a green faction (Gaians or Cult) or maybe the Pirates. How about this?

The turn order looks fine and I think it'll be good if Minute Mirage gets to be the starting player (no need to determine this randomly).

I clearly see the point in reducing the randomness for a more fair (competive challenge) planning/micromanaging game. However, I do not intend to commence such a campaign yet -- and definitely not with Domai's Drones, as I have very, VERY little experience with that faction. Again, I'm willing to trade my place in the game should you wish to proceed with this interesting 'planning campaign'.

Hercules · October 12, 2003, 10:23

Well I am just throwing my name into the hat in case a) you want another player
or b) you run another game. Gaians or Data Angels

Minute Mirage · October 12, 2003, 10:44

I'm personally interested in playing both with an unknown map and with the 'Veterans' map. I'd say we should start this game with an unknown, CMN created map, like I specified in my opening post. However, I would also like to start another game with the Veterans map with no pods. I'll create a new thread for the game and try get four players for that one. Archaic can decide whether he would rather like to play in that game, though he is welcome to stay in this one too. If Archaic decides to choose the other game, Hercules is welcome to take his place. However, everyone is free to join the other game too.

Archaic · October 12, 2003, 17:37

I'll stay in this one, as well as going in that other one. With my semester coming to an end, and no more Uni until April next year (Though I'll be in Japan starting from February 2004 'till February 2005), I've got more time than I know what to do with.

Minute Mirage · October 13, 2003, 02:24

Hercules, this game is currently full, but perhaps you would be willing to join the other game I'm trying to get started? That one's going to be played on the CGN "Veterans" map, and the only players currently are myself and Archaic so there are two spots free.

Concerning the AIs in this game, Rubin's suggestion is fine by me, though I personally wouldn't mind if the CMN made the decision.

Minute Mirage · October 13, 2003, 04:14

I've asked johndmuller to CMN the game and he has kindly agreed. There are only a few things we need to sort out:

Firstly the AI factions. Should we follow Rubin's suggestion, leave it to johndmuller to decide or do you have other ideas? I'll vote for a free decision by johndmuller.

Secondly, how much do we want the AIs to be beefed up? This is not something I'm very experienced with and I don't know what is usual in PBEMs, so I'm willing to go with whatever you decide.

Rubin · October 13, 2003, 07:41

I'm ok with johndmuller choosing the AI factions, though I hope this is not going to be completely random -- especially if the AI gets beefed up. A stronger AI is fine but I have no idea how this affects PBEM gameplay. Also, normal AI's are fine with me too.

Archaic · October 13, 2003, 08:54

My vote goes for beefed up random AI's, preferably setup so that their advantage doesn't just come from a tech lead we're going to probe or diplo away from them. Unless we're going to use a custom Alphax.txt, then it's probably best if there's no Aliens too.

Minute Mirage · October 13, 2003, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Unless we're going to use a custom Alphax.txt, then it's probably best if there's no Aliens too.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? What would the modifications to the alphax.txt be? Moving nerve gas further in the tech tree?

On an unrelated note, I was thinking about the rules a bit, more precicely this part:

Quote:

§ 9. Stockpile Energy

You may not insert stockpile energy into the build queue after the production of a military unit.

First off, the wording is a bit unclear. Does this mean only military (attack-capable) units or all units? Secondly, doesn't this favour the builder factions who are likely to build more facilities? I was thinking it would be better if we always allowed the use of stockpile energy in the build queues, like in the team democracy game. This would make things equal for all players in this regard.

Rubin · October 13, 2003, 09:51

Regarding § 9:

It should read ALL units (I think).

The 'stockpile energy' bug is very annoying, IMHO. By exploiting this bug economically challenged factions (e.g. the Hive) have a considerable advantage and economically strong factions (e.g. Morgan) are less able to take full advantage of a superior economy.

Minute Mirage · October 13, 2003, 10:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Rubin
Regarding § 9:

It should read ALL units (I think).

The 'stockpile energy' bug is very annoying, IMHO. By exploiting this bug economically challenged factions (e.g. the Hive) have a considerable advantage and economically strong factions (e.g. Morgan) are less able to take full advantage of a superior economy.

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. It certainly gives an advantage to factions with a lot of production. I'm willing to leave the rule as it is, with the wording "all units". At least that would reduce micromanagement.

jtsisyoda · October 13, 2003, 15:08

I don't have strong feelings on the strength of the AI or its factions.
I'm with Rubin on the stockpile bug.

Minute Mirage · October 13, 2003, 15:36

OK, we seem to have everything figured out now and our CMN can get started on the map. I gave johndmuller free hands as far as picking the other factions is concerned. I asked for the AI to be beefed up somewhat, though hopefully not just with extra techs.