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Kody · October 6, 2003, 19:28

The university is obvious a very powerful faction as demonstrated by the builder game Archaic posted in the CGN forums.

http://www.civgaming.net/forums/show...&goto=lastpost

Some people think that research is too unbalancing a factor and consequently dislike playing the university as it's too easy to play.

Just wondering what other people think.

Edit:
Darn it think carefully of a title before you post, otherwise it stays stuck as something stupid.

Minute Mirage · October 6, 2003, 19:50

I like playing the University precisely because it's a strong faction. I still consider myself a newbie to the game and thus, especially in PBEMs, I like to take every advantage I can. My problem is that the University is the only faction I've learned to play somewhat well. I know I need to give the other factions a chance, but I've never really gotten around to it.

Darsnan · October 6, 2003, 21:53

Yes, I dislike the University because of the way Archaic (and Paul) play them, as they are very difficult adversaries to overcome.

Of course, then again, if their on your side....

D

Jamski · October 7, 2003, 03:40

Heh, you being that funny man makes laughing HARD, or? - Kody?

-Jam

Kody · October 7, 2003, 04:04

Yes laugh at the stupid thread title.

I was being absent minded when I posted this.

Vev · October 7, 2003, 07:05

I like the title, it is succient.

Jamski · October 7, 2003, 13:08

Title making me big laughing yes? Very suckient like Vev saying

Uni are good like Archaic make them.

-Jam

Curiosity · October 7, 2003, 15:37

The UoP is very strong under certain circumstances, and they're flexible enough to be played from almost any situation.

However the major factor in that game was Archaic's skill, rather than the faction. If you can manage your early game economy that well then any faction is pretty easy.

Datajack Franit · October 7, 2003, 15:51

The stupid title prevents me from posting any kind of smart comment

Lazerus · October 7, 2003, 17:08

I dislike them because you have to be nice to drones with facilities rather the punishment spheres

(without shooting yourself in the head atleast)

Minute Mirage · October 7, 2003, 17:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
I dislike them because you have to be nice to drones with facilities rather the punishment spheres

(without shooting yourself in the head atleast)

If I'm running FM, I might build a few punishment spheres, but generally speaking I don't like the research penalty too much. However, I fail to see what stops the University from building them. The research penalty is the same for everyone, and the University actually benefits from the drone reduction the most, because they have the most drones to start with. Unless you mean that the other factions can sacrifice their research easier since they're no good at it anyway.

jtsisyoda · October 7, 2003, 18:12

For single player, any faction can win easily, so I'll assume we're talking about multiplayer.

Zak is vulnerable to probing, so anyone aggressive enough to go find Zak and probe away has a chance. The Angels start close to IA, and are good at the probe thing, and have fewer drone problems, so theoretically they should be good against Zak. CyCon has a great tool they can use-- Dem/FM with 100% econ, for upgrading crawlers and getting the SP's. Morgan can upgrade crawlers faster than Zak, too, as long as he gets to IA in a reasonable time. Consider Lal with Ascetic Virtues-- size 18 cities (versus 14 for others) and 5 extra talents. Hive can take a different route, ICS, until superior size overcomes the (relatively) small, efficient researcher. Boreholes are a great equalizer, so if you have twice as many cities and twice as many boreholes, how can you lose?

Anyone who builds the Empath Guild or gets governor will get an infiltrator, even if Zak has a gazillion defensive probes. Zak, knowing he is being watched, will have to cover every weakness, slowing him down considerably. These other factions have an uphill battle, I'd say, but I don't think Zak wins "easily" in multiplayer.

Keep in mind Archaic hardly built any military in that game because he was pretty isolated on a huge map. Multiplayer games I've seen have been on large or smaller, with more "outgoing" opponents. So, single player is skewed to favor the all-out research of Uni. In multi, that style has more risk.

Curiosity · October 7, 2003, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Zak, knowing he is being watched, will have to cover every weakness, slowing him down considerably.

There's the thing - Zak really can't be played defensively at all.

The only advantage the UoP has is tech. On standard maps the tech doesn't help their econ, comparatively, as much as on huge maps, as they tend to get techs before they're able to use them effectively.

Since AC's military tech centres around breakpoints - AP, MMI, fusion, etc. - eventually somone is going to either probe or research their way to parity in terms of military technology. At that point Zak will find himself up against a likely superior military force.

As a result, Zak IMO needs to find the opposition and bring the fight to them as soon as he has built that decisive tech edge. Turtling is a good way to throw away a won game.

gwillybj · October 9, 2003, 23:13

Since I SP only, I am neutral toward all of the SMAC-7.

Archaic · October 10, 2003, 06:05

Heh. I suppose I should put my two cents in here.

Firstly...Uni is the only faction I can really play well. I've tried playing Morgan, the PK's, the Angels, and the Borgs, but I'm just not anywhere near as good with any of them. I suppose I've had more success with PK's than Angels, though I'd attribute that to having a load off from the Drone problems of the Uni. Morgans, I just can't come to grips with the Hab Limits, and I don't seem to bring in quite as much credits as quickly as I do with Uni, simply because I've got less workers per base. As for the Borgs, the -1 growth is a killer when I'm used to never switching to Planned (I solely use GA's and the vats thesedays), and I haven't been able to adjust my playstyle to suit them well enough yet.

Secondly...my effort in that builder game was mainly thanks to knowing how to handle the AI diplomatically. Most of what I did really just came out of Vel's guide to be honest. I have no special tricks. My terraforming's haphazard, my research isn't that well directed, I don't expand enough in the middle to late game, etc, etc. About all I do well is manage my economy and workers, and even then, there's room for improvement.

Thirdly, as jtsisyoda noted, I didn't really build any military in that game. IIRC, I built one single Empath Rover, and the rest all came from Pod Popping (Beating up Miriam with a single Unity Rover was priceless). As I'm sure Flubber and Darsan, amongst others, can attest, my military skills could use a lot of work. I've been working on them recently, and they're looking like they're about to be tested in two of my current PBEMs, but they're certainly not anywhere near as developed as most of the other players around, at least from how I see my skills.

In any case, I love the University as a faction, I identify with their ideology, and I have a lot of fun playing them, so that's all that really counts in the end, isn't it? No faction is really more powerful than any other. It just depends on how they're being played, and who's playing them. I'm good, but I'm far from the best.

Kody · October 10, 2003, 06:31

So do you reckon that the faction you start off playing with you usually get the best at. Quite simply because you pick up the habits required to play that faction well, and it's difficult to change your habits to suit a different faction?

Archaic · October 10, 2003, 06:38

I'm not so sure about that. While it's true that the first faction I used was the Uni, and that they've always been my preferred one, I've changed my playstyle a lot since then, with very distinct differences between how I played before I discovered the CGN Acadamy, Vel's Guide, and Sikander's Terraforming methods. In all cases, my playstyle changed virtually overnight as I adapted it with these new (to me) ideas. I expect the next time I have a big change in my playstyle, will be when I can learn your own micromanagement techniques that I've seen you put into effect in the ACDTG.

I don't think it'd be impossible for me to change my habits to play another faction, or that it'd be all that difficult, it's just that I don't have the time to play that much thesedays outside of the PBEMS, so I haven't had the time to learn what I need to do with these other factions.

Jamski · October 10, 2003, 18:34

I think you're onto something. The first faction I played was the Hive (WOW! Free perimiterdefenses, that will keep me safe while I learn to play) and they remain my preferred faction.

-Jam

Kody · October 10, 2003, 19:19

Hopefully I remember all of my early game strategies once this is all said and done. I do intend to share what I've learnt, but at the moment I want to try and keep the edge in the ACDG.

I've also realised as this game progressed I need to adapt to maintain advantage, which means constantly discarding some of the strategies I was using and come up with new ones. By the end of the game I have a feeling I would have forgotten a few of my earlier ones. It helps having others backing you up too, as I've been bouncing ideas like crazy off anyone that will listen.

Most of the ideas I've come up with only suit particular circumstances. Those are the ones you don't read about, because it's too specific an strategy to be used often.

Datajack Franit · October 10, 2003, 20:17

The "ability?" of having one extra drone for every 4 citizens may become important in the latest part of the game, I'd pick the Drones and the Consciousness instead

Chaos Theory · October 11, 2003, 04:21

IMO, that penalty is only significant when your cities are growing from size 3 to size 4 and pick up two extra drones (3 if you were relying on the PTS) before you can just make everyone a Librarian. Later in the game that 1/4 citizens means 1 extra drone, and among psych, facilities, police, and specialists it's hardly a problem.

The Drones suffer a little in the late game in that they can't take Green, Planned becomes useless, and Free Market becomes brutal. On the other hand, having +3-4 industry for most of the game should make up for that.

The Consciousness is great, but Zak is better for tech in the very early game with an effective +8 research rating (1.2 from research * 1.5 from net nodes), and the cyborgs have some difficulty pop booming.

Commander Jace · October 13, 2003, 17:14

Fellow gamers have you forgotten???

When their is one force there is always another pushing in the opposite direction

Hence for every reaction there is an opposite reaction

For every faction that is strong there is another faction that can take hold of the powerful factions weakness and crush them.

STALIN LIVES ON.........

If you are good enough there is no such thing as a superior faction only a faction with an advantage.

"The greatest victories were battles thta were lost"

JACE OUT.....

CEO Aaron · October 14, 2003, 03:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
The Drones suffer a little in the late game in that they can't take Green, Planned becomes useless, and Free Market becomes brutal. On the other hand, having +3-4 industry for most of the game should make up for that.

By late-game, the Drones can construct brood pits and get the Ascetic Virtues, which all but eliminate the poor police rating from Free Market. Alternatively, one or two low energy bases can construct Punishment Spheres, and your espeditionary units (with clean reactor) can all be homed there for foreign conquest. Free Market is entirely viable in the long game, you just have to adjust your play style to accomodate its restrictions.

Curiosity · October 14, 2003, 07:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
IMO, that penalty is only significant when your cities are growing from size 3 to size 4 and pick up two extra drones

The UoP doesn't get the first drone until it gets to size 4, so you only pick up one drone - and since there's only one worker at transcend, they only ever get one drone; the UoP's disadvatage never creates super-drones.

Also, if you create one specialist then the first citizen will be a drone regardless... so for an early specialisation strat the UoP really has no disadvantage at all.

Chaos Theory · October 14, 2003, 13:59

CEO Aaron: Yes, FM can be run in the late game (roughly Hab Domes onward), but Green will probably generate more research and/or energy by that point. Also, fungus is becoming productive by then, so FM prevents you from taking advantage of it.

Curiosity: You get two extra drones going from size 3 to 4. One for having another population unit, and one for the Univ's disadvantage. Yes, having even a single specialist nullifies this penalty, but that specialist will be a doctor. A specialization strat depends on getting cities to size 5 to actually have useful specialists. In any case, the extra drone at size 4 has created a few problems for me.

Archaic · October 14, 2003, 18:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
CEO Aaron: Yes, FM can be run in the late game (roughly Hab Domes onward), but Green will probably generate more research and/or energy by that point. Also, fungus is becoming productive by then, so FM prevents you from taking advantage of it.

Wouldn't that be dependant on your terraforming strategy and Future Society choices? I hardly think many people would have a lot of Fungus around their land at that stage. They'd be filled with Forests, Boreholes, and the occasional Condensor/Farm/Soil Enricher. As for the Future Society, if you've taken Cybernetic, you can still get Max. Efficiency without Green.

Chaos Theory · October 14, 2003, 20:29

No, I wouldn't have left much fungus near my bases, but new/conquered bases may have plenty, and high fungus productivity gets them off the ground, and ecodamage tends to plant fungus for you.

If you've gone the expensive forming route and covered your land in boreholes and condensors, the +1 energy/tile from +2 econ pales compared to +2 effic.

There is no such thing as max efficiency, and if you take Eudaimonic, the +2 econ from FM is no longer significant, unless you've cultivated commerce.

Archaic · October 15, 2003, 02:58

Which is assuming you're still planting bases by that point. While sometimes productive, by the late stages where Fungus might actually be worth something (And really, for it to be worth more than Forest Hybrids, you need to have that project, itself only available in the late game usually, and only in SMAX.), you wouldn't expect to be planting very many more bases.

You're assuming there that one would take FM for its energy per tile advantage. The energy from the base square and for specialists however is unaffected, as is the energy from commerce. These are where the real gains in the late game from high Economy values come from, not the extra +1 per tile.

There is no such thing, but once you get to +4 Effic, there's no point going higher, and you can get there with Demo/Cybernetic anyway. Demo/FM/Wealth/Cybernetic in general will give you greater returns (Both economically and research wise) than Demo/Green/Wealth/Eudaimonic, unless perhaps you're a warmonger. And quite frankly, given that there's more gains to be had from cultivating that commerce, in SP at least, why would you bother being a warmonger?

Chaos Theory · October 15, 2003, 04:01

Actually, planting bases in the late game can still be very productive. Assume you've grabbed the Cloning Vats, have ample hydro sats, and one or two drone-managing SPs. A newly founded base (with a drop colony pod or even sea pod), with ample fungus (now producing at least 2-1-1), will pop boom as high as facilities and drones allow. As the city grows, pull citizens off the fungus to specialize, and the city continues to boom, while starting to produce massive labs/energy from both the specialists and energy sats/fungus/commerce. Rush rec commons etc early and net node/fusion lab/etc later to pump up the city.

Produce drop colony pods from each of your cities from a few turns to quickly double or triple your base count, and in ten to twenty years you've redoubled your labs/energy, beyond any other improvements. These cities are much more difficult to make useful if fungus produces nothing. You can start doing this at Centauri Psi, which is probably a little ways from Transcendence, but not too long before Eudaimonia. Until then, use Demo/Green/Know/Cyb as described at the bottom.

To take advantage of commerce due to high economy, you need at least a +3 rating. To fully use this energy, you need a SE +4 effic. Compare the following:

Demo/FM/Wealth/Cyb - +3 econ, +4 effic, -1 planet, +2 research
Demo/Green/Wealth/Eud - +3 econ, +4 effic, +2 planet, +0 research
Demo/Green/Know/Cyb - +0 econ, +7 effic, +4 planet, +4 research
Demo/FM/Know/Eud - +4 econ, +3 effic, -3 planet, +2 research
Demo/FM/Wealth/Eud - +5 econ, +2 effic, -3 planet, +0 research

Each point of econ above +3 gives yet another point of increased commerce, and costs a point of effic. Each lost point of effic will cost some 4-8% off labs assuming energy is heavily skewed to labs. If I remember right, there are 6 commerce techs in SMAX. By the commerce formula, each point of commerce rating increases your commerce by 1/7 of the "base" value. Just how much commerce are you getting relative to total commerce + raw + specialist energy (specialist energy *is* affected by losses due to uneven allocation, AFAIK)? 50%? At that point you're roughly breaking even. Therefore, unless you have cultivated a great deal of commerce, effic < +4 is not optimal.

Switching FM/Cyb for Green/Eud costs 2 research but returns 3 planet and 2 industry, reducing your labs by 1/6 but allowing you to sprawl across unclaimed territory and cheaply rush facilities everywhere. In addition, you can fight a war without particular worries and even keep a police unit (free with Self-Aware Colony) in any base that might need it. If you really don't want to expand or conquer anything, go ahead and stick with FM/Cyb.

If you switch FM/Wealth/Cyb for Green/Know/Cyb, you lose 1 point of commerce (1/7 of "base") and 1 energy from each worked tile (as little as 1/8 of raw energy for boreholes or as much as 1/4 for forests). The +3 effic raises you from +6 (Demo + Cyb + Creche) to +9, which reduces losses to inefficiency to 1/108 per tile from HQ from 1/80 per tile. If you went ahead and got your HQ destroyed, all bases are exactly 16 tiles distant and the immediate return is not as high in Green/Know as in FM/Wealth. On the other hand, you gain 1/7 more research. All these factors combined should roughly cancel for purposes of labs. On top of that, you can sprawl as described above.

Archaic · October 15, 2003, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Actually, planting bases in the late game can still be very productive. Assume you've grabbed the Cloning Vats, have ample hydro sats, and one or two drone-managing SPs. A newly founded base (with a drop colony pod or even sea pod), with ample fungus (now producing at least 2-1-1), will pop boom as high as facilities and drones allow. As the city grows, pull citizens off the fungus to specialize, and the city continues to boom, while starting to produce massive labs/energy from both the specialists and energy sats/fungus/commerce. Rush rec commons etc early and net node/fusion lab/etc later to pump up the city.

Produce drop colony pods from each of your cities from a few turns to quickly double or triple your base count, and in ten to twenty years you've redoubled your labs/energy, beyond any other improvements. These cities are much more difficult to make useful if fungus produces nothing. You can start doing this at Centauri Psi, which is probably a little ways from Transcendence, but not too long before Eudaimonia. Until then, use Demo/Green/Know/Cyb as described at the bottom.

Perhaps we should clarify ourselves here. I'm talking from a MP standpoint. You're talking from a SP standpoint, yes?

In that case, then yes, it's certainly an idea, assuming there's ample places to drop those pods. Considering the very few remaining turns by the time you have orbital insertion however (ie. If there were 10-20 turns between getting Orbital Insertion and Transcending, you can probably do better), it may be more worthwhile to stick with improving your existing bases with whatever improvements you can still purchase, and then if there's still a few turns left before the transcendance, *then* go throwing a few pods around. A 25% increase in that base's economic or labs output is going to give you greater returns than what you're getting from the base taking time to boom.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
To take advantage of commerce due to high economy, you need at least a +3 rating. To fully use this energy, you need a SE +4 effic. Compare the following:

Demo/FM/Wealth/Cyb - +3 econ, +4 effic, -1 planet, +2 research
Demo/Green/Wealth/Eud - +3 econ, +4 effic, +2 planet, +0 research
Demo/Green/Know/Cyb - +0 econ, +7 effic, +4 planet, +4 research
Demo/FM/Know/Eud - +4 econ, +3 effic, -3 planet, +2 research
Demo/FM/Wealth/Eud - +5 econ, +2 effic, -3 planet, +0 research

Each point of econ above +3 gives yet another point of increased commerce, and costs a point of effic. Each lost point of effic will cost some 4-8% off labs assuming energy is heavily skewed to labs. If I remember right, there are 6 commerce techs in SMAX. By the commerce formula, each point of commerce rating increases your commerce by 1/7 of the "base" value. Just how much commerce are you getting relative to total commerce + raw + specialist energy (specialist energy *is* affected by losses due to uneven allocation, AFAIK)? 50%? At that point you're roughly breaking even. Therefore, unless you have cultivated a great deal of commerce, effic < +4 is not optimal.

Switching FM/Cyb for Green/Eud costs 2 research but returns 3 planet and 2 industry, reducing your labs by 1/6 but allowing you to sprawl across unclaimed territory and cheaply rush facilities everywhere. In addition, you can fight a war without particular worries and even keep a police unit (free with Self-Aware Colony) in any base that might need it. If you really don't want to expand or conquer anything, go ahead and stick with FM/Cyb.

If you switch FM/Wealth/Cyb for Green/Know/Cyb, you lose 1 point of commerce (1/7 of "base") and 1 energy from each worked tile (as little as 1/8 of raw energy for boreholes or as much as 1/4 for forests). The +3 effic raises you from +6 (Demo + Cyb + Creche) to +9, which reduces losses to inefficiency to 1/108 per tile from HQ from 1/80 per tile. If you went ahead and got your HQ destroyed, all bases are exactly 16 tiles distant and the immediate return is not as high in Green/Know as in FM/Wealth. On the other hand, you gain 1/7 more research. All these factors combined should roughly cancel for purposes of labs. On top of that, you can sprawl as described above.

For someone who was assuming all sorts of projects for strategies earlier, you're certainly forgetting the fact that Demo/FM/Wealth/Cybernatic also has +4 Effic, and unless you've got some stats from somewhere to show that you can get better results with higher Effic than with the already Perfect Economy +4 (Something I've never seen mentioned by anyone else), that pretty much cancels out most of your calcs. Even if they're on the mark, the losses per tile mean nothing, since each base only works 4-8 tiles generally, and the majority (ie. Far over 50%) of income comes from specialists, sats, and commerce, none of which are influenced by efficiency I might add, the figures you're talking about don't make up for the losses you'd take with the lower ratings elsewhere, not by a long shot.

As for sprawling, there's no problems there at, if that's what you want to do. That goes hand in hand with the +4.

As for the complaints about police units and so forth, you're really making the problem seem worse than it is. Like I said, don't be a warmonger. Or, if you have to, build one base and make everyone specialists, rehoming everything there. Problem solved. Regardless, the police issue is rather irrelevant if you have the cash flow from FM/Wealth (+ GA), and you'd want to be rushing the various labs and econ improvements which help Psych anyway. If you have one or two Psych projects, you're in an even better position. Oh, and let's not forget that, by the time you have the Drop Troops like you're talking about here, you shouldn't ever have to move a unit out of your territory for a full turn, simply because the area it drops into should become your territory once you make the attack on the same turn.