Bye bye PtW - Page 3

Theseus · October 15, 2003, 19:04

Awesome, SR!!

I prolly won't have time to play it though.

Maybe there are some lessoned learned that will be useful for a C3C mod...

What was the reason for no cities on forests? Is there an exploit on tundra of which I am unaware.

Harovan · October 15, 2003, 20:11

Hi big T

. No cities on forest only, because forest could be planted on tundra and then settled.

I take a time out today (I just returned from my "evening meeting" and am fairly ... erm ... tired

). Will continue to play tomorrow.

Theseus · October 15, 2003, 20:15

Ohhh... so you just want to prevent the human player from an exploit to settle on tundra. If I understand correctly then, Soren's comment was not really on target... it is OK that the AI civs do not know how to do that.

ps: I don't play much after "evening meetings" either.

Jaybe · October 16, 2003, 04:08

Quote:

No cities on forest only, because forest could be planted on tundra and then settled.

For "no cities on tundra," instead of prohibiting cities in forests I prohibited planting forests on tundra.

Stuie · October 16, 2003, 07:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Ohhh... so you just want to prevent the human player from an exploit to settle on tundra. If I understand correctly then, Soren's comment was not really on target... it is OK that the AI civs do not know how to do that.

Not quite. What Soren was saying is that when forest/jungle are flagged for "no cities", the AI does not understand that it needs to clear forest/jungle in "regular" (non-tundra) areas in order to build cities. Instead, the AI ignores those areas for settling completely. Thus a potential for human exploit.

Harovan · October 16, 2003, 15:35

Dearest Charlotte,

greetings from the Russian front. I write this letter in a military camp near Yakutsk, which our brave cavalrymen captured this year, after it was many years under siege. I'm so proud, that I was allowed to participate in this victorious operation, breathing gun smoke, loading and firing my cannon without any break. After so many years of war, disrupted only by very short periods of peace, it's good to see, that the backbone of the Russian bear seems to be broken. And finally, in our high command showed up talented leaders. Five years ago, the Cavalry regiment "G. L. von Blücher" brought us the leader Horsa, who helped us with his skills instantly to install the Womens suffrage. Yes, my dear, it's true, you will be allowed to participate in the next elections in our glorious Republic. And in this year, the Cavalry regiment "N. von Gneisenau" gave us the leader Barbarossa. In ancient times we already saw him, he helped to form our first army of Knights, which is, by the way, still in service as guard for our artillery. This time, he will help us to complete a big research project called Theory of Evolution.

I hope so, that peace will come and I can return to you. I miss you, my love, but still the Russian Czarina Catherine refuses to talk with our leaders. I heard, in our homeland is going on a big industrialization process, and factories and power plants are constructed everywhere. Our leaders say, that with the installation of the Womens suffrage our nation entered a Golden age. I am sure, that this will speed the construction of the factories. I wish you heartly, that you soon will benefit from all the modern goods the new age provides. As I heard, England and France are also in this age of industrialization. In the southern jungle was a big uprising of barbarians. We heard that our jungle police, consisting of morning star swingers, already suffered the first losses. I hope, the barbarian horsemen can be stopped before they reach our cities.

I hear thunder of cannons at the horizon, and have to end this letter. Probably the Russians are raiding again, although their attacks get more and more pathetic. I hope, that I can soon return home to you, my love. This tour will take very little time, as the new railroad, which connects our new russian provinces with our homeland, will soon be ready.

Kisses,

Leberecht von Hartenfels
Captain in the 4th artillery battalion

Harovan · October 16, 2003, 16:00

1340 AD I found the Aztecs, the last civ. Faaaaar in the ancient age. I traded their world map for Masonry!

vmxa1 · October 16, 2003, 16:07

Give or regards to the fine captain, soon to be major, I presume.

Harovan · October 16, 2003, 16:33

Yet another lunatic action.

Theseus · October 16, 2003, 16:41

Go get'em, Leberecht!!

Harovan · October 17, 2003, 12:22

1410 AD. We have peace since a couple of turns. Cathy sued for peace herself. Right now, she is in my territory with 2 knights, but I know she heads towards England.

Something very strange is going on with tech trading. Techs one AI has, but I don't, are practically not to afford. Joan trades Nationalism (which she owns alone) for Steam Power + 778 gpt + 7674g (already haggled down)

! That is hardly what I wanted by raising the tech rate. May be that's why most AIs are so backwards.

I'm about a third in the industrial age, have a lead of 5-6 techs to the most advanced AIs and 1-2 whole ages to the less advanced. I'm beginning quickly to lose interest in this game

.

alexman · October 17, 2003, 14:30

Yes, Nationalism is a strange tech that way. The AI places a huge value on it for trade, way more than what is justified by its research cost. I doubt it's the tech rate of your mod that created this situation.

vmxa1 · October 17, 2003, 15:04

In no small measure, it is due to your being able to pay that much.

Arrian · October 17, 2003, 16:28

Nationalism is overpriced under the normal rules (not horribly so), and by upping the tech costs across the board, I guess you ended up magnifying that. Ouch, poor Aztecs! That's INSANE!

I can't believe you made that deal for Nationalism, by the way. Whenever I get an outrageous trade offer, I just say "screw it, I'll do it myself."

-Arrian

Harovan · October 17, 2003, 16:59

Hey

, I just checked, with 0% science.

<advisor>I would never accept such a deal</advisor>

And I won't do it myself, I wait for the next civ to research or trade for it, that approximately halves the price.

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 04:07

I didn't have a lot of time this weekend, I have some family problems, but in the breaks I played the game till the modern age. Some impressions:

Spain sneak attacked me with a small expeditionary force. The stupidest war ever, because I was their only supplier with saltpeter. The war was short and not a threat for my cities at all.

Right after I discovered Replaceable Parts, one of my outposts detected a steady stream of Scandinavian units heading in my direction. They were led by cavalries and knights, the bulk consisted of muskets, pikes, longbows and medinfs. I looked up who they go for, decided it was me, and set up a "concave mirror defense" at the spot I expected them. So I call a typical mousetrap for the AI. All we know, that AI units don't leave their precalculated path if it's not blocked. Since they all started roughly at one point (Skandinavia is not very big) and are streamlined by the pathfinding algorithm, they should arrive all roughly at the same tile. I set up a concave arc of infantries (2-4 at each tile depending on terrain), some of them in quickly built fortresses, and placed 40 artilleries and 24 cavalries among them, so that all they focus at THE spot. It came as expected. Each turn a number (~5-6) AI units showed up at that spot, were pounded by 40 artillery rounds and their measly 1hp remainders were mopped up by cavalries. The cavalries got right back in file, since at my side all was railroaded. I didn't exactly count how many units my hollow mirror "burnt" this way, a rough estimation says about 40 or 50. It was more a boring slaughter than a real war. My losses were low, all in all I lost 4 units, mostly infantries, because I attacked with them when my cavalries had to heal and I didn't want to let 1hp units escape. The war gave me my 6th leader, who became an army, because there was nothing to build.

Russia (who had declared war on England) was eventually taken over by a multinational alliance. They asked me to participate, but no thanks. I had taken the juicy russian grasslands and plains, the English and Greeks got 4 hill crappy cities. Russia survived at their one tile island, but remained at war fairly long, because they were stuck in an alliance and MPP hell.

After I had my first 20 Panzers, Carthage (5 cities and backwards) declared war on England (20+ cities) without any need. Within the first 2 turns the English took 2 cities and razed one. I had a settler reserve and settled in the razed gap before the English could. To prevent England to get the remaining 2 cities of Carthage, my Panzers took them in a one turn war.

I entered the modern age shortly after 1700. The most advanced AI civ (France) was at the line Combustion/Scientific Method. They didn't have researched much in the past turns. France had Communism, England was a Monarchy, and both of them were involved in a gigantic world war. The Ottomans (tech leader at the other continent) too. I had a huge tech lead, a lead in score (1. Germany ~3000, 2. Ottomans ~2000, ...), power as much as the next two civs together and was world leader in culture. Given turn times of already 5 minutes and growing, I decided to end the game here. Cultural, scientific and diplomatic victory was off anyway, I had not the slightest desire to try domination or conquest, although it would be very easy given my standing army and about 30 cities able to build two turn Panzers. But a slug- and MM-fest like this, with 5 minute turns, brrrr, no thanks. 1750 AD I declared the game officially over.

Was that the farewell to PtW for me?

Not yet. I made some mistakes in the mod (like forgetting to make Ansars and Riders wheeled), and I want to playtest the 2-step cavalry currently discussed in the AU mod thread. So I set up a ByeByePtW mod 2.0, with these changes:

- Cities can be built again on forests, planting forest on tundra is disabled.
- Ansars and Riders are wheeled (silly me!

), Samurai are not (hey, they are foot units!)
- 3 new units, Light Cavalry (5.3.3/8), Light Sipahi (7.3.3/10), Light Cossack (5.4.3/8), all horses+saltpeter and wheeled, available at Military tradition
- Their originals were moved to Nationalism and are a free upgrade.
- 3 new units, Heavy Infantry (9.14.1/10) comes with Computers and Heavy Paratrooper (12.12.2/15,+1hp) and Heavy Marine (14.10.1/15,+1hp) are available with Synthetic Fibers. The latter two require additionally Aluminium. Infantry, Paratrooper and Marine upgrade to their "Heavy" equivalent. That is necessary, because after Computers there was no suitable foot unit for mountain warfare, since Mech Infs are wheeled. I know, that "Heavy Paratrooper" and "Heavy Marine" are stupid names, but hey... come with alternatives if you don't like them.

House rule: Clearing jungle is allowed only inside the 21 tile city radius AND the own cultural borders. I had played the other game without this rule, since I didn't yet know the AI problem when I started.

I started a new game, this time on a standard map (120x120, 12 civs), again as Germany and with England, France, Spain, Russia, America, Japan, China, India, Arabia, Zululand and one more civ (I forgot, heck, I'll see

). I played till 5:30am this morning. My wife called me crazy and said I was ripe for the mental home. But hey, that's civ. I just entered the medieval age, am in the middle of the powergraph and already was at war with all 4 civs at my continent (France, Spain, England, Russia). This is fun!

alva · October 20, 2003, 04:20

Quote:

1750 AD I declared the game officially over.

Can't stand losing, can you.

Pretty impresive though

, what level are you playing?
-

Quote:

and placed 40 artilleries and 24 cavalries among them, so that all they focus at THE spot

Although I can't predict AI behaviour as good as you

, this is exactly why i don't use any arty (up to deity), makes it much more fun as from time to time something unexpected happens (heavy losses for example) and you need to scramble/improvise to counter the AI.
It helps making it a less "scripted" game.

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 05:29

Quote:

Originally posted by alva
Pretty impresive though

, what level are you playing?

That was emperor. Should I have made it more difficult? Apparently yes, but I just can't stand the MM hell at deity.

I play for fun, not for competition, so there!

Quote:

..., this is exactly why i don't use any arty (up to deity), makes it much more fun as from time to time something unexpected happens (heavy losses for example) and you need to scramble/improvise to counter the AI.

That's what I just can't be talked into... The game already is streamlined enough and compared to other games the number of units and even unit types is low. ZoC (the real one) got canned because the AI can't use it. No limit for the # of units at one tile (like in CtP1/2 and other games), because the AI wants to lump its whole army at one tile. I just hate to be restricted only because the AI can't use legal game features. I'm not talking about clear exploits like RCP and the Distant capital, but about basic things like building scouts if expansionist (never seen the AI to build a scout, they use their initial one and that's it), dense building if the map is crowded, using bombard units, fortify on high ground and thus force a stream of attackers into open ground, adding workers to quickly increase city size, building the forbidden palace in a decent spot and not next to the capital. Oh... [/RANT], btw

Besides: The AI is predictable, just take a look at the terrain. Or yet better, play a few tiny games in debug mode (whole map uncovered) and watch the AIs attack each other. You get the touch of their pathfinding very quick.

Arrian · October 20, 2003, 10:54

Quote:

My wife called me crazy and said I was ripe for the mental home. But hey, that's civ.

You're playing on a standard map with 12 civs? That must be really cramped. No wonder things were exciting.

-Arrian

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 10:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

You're playing on a standard map with 12 civs? That must be really cramped. No wonder things were exciting.

-Arrian

My standard is what once was large (120x120).

I played deity exercises with 24 civs on 60x60 tiny. Now that is cramped.

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 13:28

Alva (if you're still paying attention): I found some screenies from the Scandinavian attack. Here's the picture from the turn, when I noticed the attack force from my outpost. The red line shows the way I expected, assuming I am the victim and not Carthage (which I didn't yet know).

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 13:29

Here's the screenie from the declaration of war. As you see, there are 2 Scandinavian attack directions, both coming from a common vertex. I put my "concave mirror" where the blue dotted line is. In the later game, all Scandinavian units without any exception passed this vertex, and most of them was destroyed there.

vmxa1 · October 20, 2003, 16:53

Makes you think of the Charge of the Light Brigade. Into the valley of death..........

Harovan · October 20, 2003, 17:36

The more I play with this mod (mountains impassable for mounted and wheeled units, no roads), the more I like the variety of tactical decisions. In my second game, I want to conquer Russia in the knight age. Moscow would make up a kickass FP city. Between me and Russia is a vast mountain range. I need mountain passes to get my knights and catapults over the mountains. I found two.

Man, if that was a PBEM game between humans, now that would be fun!

alva · October 21, 2003, 13:13

Quote:

Alva (if you're still paying attention):

Always am

The thing with is, that at some point I don't really want to know anymore about AI behaviour.

It's fun to disect it , don't get me wrong, but if Civ4 would be released I know I won't be cheking in to it's strat forum for a decent amount of time.
Enough time to allow me to find out certain things for myself.
I haven't played an SP game for months now,(I started up Nathan's but the moment I saw that I probably was going to win, not a certainty mind you, I did quit)
the reason, well, it's too easy, I feel as if I almost know too much about this game.
Hmm, how can I put this without bragging (which I'm not, 'cause compared to most of you, my name is chieftain.)
Well, I can beat deity, sure it takes me a while 'afterall I'm not Aeson ( where is he BTW) or Nathan (where is he BTW), but I can do it.
Am I having fun during, hm, not really, is it fun in the end, surely !!!what's the alternative..emperor,but then gain, that's too easy. Perhaps I should say, not satisfying enough..

So I start limiting myself to give the AI a 'chance', but by doing so I limit my own fun.

TO give an example; I wish I had never known about the the AI going for undefended cities.. I try to pretentend I dont, but, well, that's basically impossible, isn't it.
AH well, it'still is the greatest game ever made so why am going on about it. ( could the beer

)

Arrian · October 21, 2003, 13:46

I love the invasion routes, SR.

It doesn't look like the Russkies have much chance.

/me notes "Nottingham" is under German control as well.

-Arrian

alva · October 21, 2003, 13:59

/me waits for both Arrian and Theseus's deity game and report..

C'ommon guys you're more then up to it..
((wanted to make a joke, but my alt key isn"t functioning

))
Seriously, I'm really curious to see an after game report.

Arrian · October 21, 2003, 14:20

Bah! I've no interest in Deity. I'd have to play every turn like a Democracy game: counting every shield, every commerce, and every worker turn. Obsessive micromanagement is only something I do when I want to pass the time between PBEM turns. In SP, screw that!

-Arrian

alva · October 21, 2003, 14:25

Quote:

In SP, screw that!

Ah c'mon, just once...give it go...

Seriously, I for one would be very interested to see the results..

Arrian · October 21, 2003, 14:36

I wouldn't be surprised if I lost. Repeatedly. In order to win at Diety, I would imagine I'd have to change my playstyle quite a bit. I'd be forced into a city spacing regime that I'd hate, a technology acquisition method I would hate (max tax, buying tech from AI for most of the game), and like I mentioned, excessive (by my standards) MM. I would not enjoy it, period. Therefore, since the point of playing a game is fun, I'm sorry, but I won't be playing Diety any time soon.

-Arrian