Bye bye PtW

[Harovan]

I'm in the "alva trap" too, emperor is not much of a challenge, but deity is not really the fun and entertainment I seek after work. Seems the gap between both of them is too big. In Conquests, there will be the Demigod level between them. Maybe that's for me. And Sid is probably for Aeson. C'mon Aeson, deity is too easy, isn't it?

[Stuie]

You could try modding the game to give the AI some of the additional advantages received at Deity level, but not all of them, at Emperor level. That would make Emperor a bit more challenging.

Personally, I just recently switched to Monarch, found that it wasn't all that difficult compared to Regent, and then tried Emperor. Now, it's doable, but not relaxing. I'd rather play a sloppy, fun game at Monarch, than a nit-picky game at Emperor.

[Arrian]

I'd rather play a sloppy, fun game at Monarch, than a nit-picky game at Emperor.

Me too. Most of the time, anyway.

Sounds like DemiGod will be good for you, SR (and many of the really good players here at 'poly).

-Arrian

[Aeson]

If Sid level is just higher AI production and starting bonuses, and higher corruption levels for the player, it probably won't be all that much different than Deity is now. Basically, start out in a big hole, pit the AI's against each other, wait till corruption or military action gives the player a big enough economic edge, and then clean up. Deity plays out that way because of corruption and military tactics. The AI handles them both the same regardless of difficulty level.

The starting bonuses get them to the corruption limit much faster, but once an AI is there, it ceases to expand economically, and often will contract, nibbling away at it's income supporting useless improvements and units. If a Deity AI has 40 Longbowmen, it's better for the player than if they had none at all, but the AI will still build more if they can.

The AI looks at a hopelessly corrupt city and may value it more than a core city. It will build units to defend it, improvements that don't help it, and then treat it like an indespensible holding during warfare. The more corrupt cities there are, the more it favors the player. More targets, which the player can discern the value of, take advantage of, and the AI can't.

A player's corrupt cities can be used as settler/worker factories, draft camps, buffer zones, culture bombs, or just misdirection.

[vmxa1]

Unless they have done some work to the game, it will have only one AI. That means the new levels will just be about having different bonus than the current levels. It will not play differently at the new levels. I guess I will find out soon enough.

[Mountain Sage]

The 'alva trap'? I like the expression.
I must say I wholly agree. Playing Emperor is much fun, but Deity is not fun at all. We all know why.
I prefer to have fun and a (small) challenge than a big challenge and no fun at all.
Let's see the new Demigod level...
In the meantime, time to start Sir Ralph's game

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
I prefer to have fun and a (small) challenge than a big challenge and no fun at all.

That's the spirit I like! Fun is the sole reason why I play this game at all. Some people have fun to press every piece of gold, every food and every shield out of poor terrain and are able to play and actually win SVC games , some need to tinker with the editor to give the AI a better chance, some get their fun out of Ultimate Power type games, some like to play like King Arthur (at peace if I can, at war if I must - that's me for instance, at least most of the time), some like to play like Attila the Hun... Suum cuique! - To each his own!

Now let the games begin!

In the meantime, time to start Sir Ralph's game

If you do so and start with a new map, don't forget to fix my bugs (Riders and Ansars should be wheeled, I forgot this).

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

If you do so and start with a new map, don't forget to fix my bugs (Riders and Ansars should be wheeled, I forgot this).

You're asking too much of me. My computer skills are notoriously below zero.
I just picked up your save and started it. With respect to Ansars and Riders I'll try not to cheat too much

As for the game itself, I discovered Carthage existed when I spotted 2 of their warriors heading towards my capitol. Screwed every plan I had. Soon Carthage will be history....
By now I thought that some civs would remember how I react in such cases not being able to play a PP game is the worst offence they can commit

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
I just picked up your save and started it. With respect to Ansars and Riders I'll try not to cheat too much

Both of them aren't at your continent and when you get there (mind you that you can't get there with suicide galleys) they'll be almost outdated, so it doesn't matter much.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Wow SR, this looks incredible. I may have to give this a go, as one of the Asians.... we'll see, we'll see. It certainly wouldn't be as exhilirating as your endless war against the Russians I'm sure but I think the other continent deserves some attention.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Damn

you know any other sneaky way to get certain plains not be carrier-based?

Oddly enough, the "footsoldier" flag is the key to this. Set your carriers to "Carry footsoldiers only". Only aircraft that you have set to be "Foot" units will be allowed on the carriers.


I thought this was common knowledge on 'Poly, I'm certain I nicked the idea from one mod or another here.

[Harovan]

Now that's one sweet idea.

[Theseus]

"alva trap" indeed.

But I still say Arrian's ready for Emperor. Especially with granaries and a *slight* willingness to adopt tighter city spacing.

SR, when C3C comes out, let's spend a little time comparing what's new, what you've done, and the AU Mod.

I've always felt that the AI is sub-optimized on purpose, and that we should be able to modify difficulty through tweaks rather than just starting resources and conditions.

[Mountain Sage]

I'm out the Ancient Age now. Germany is no. 1 in techs and growing quite well, thanks to a C-T-T-C spacing. It's been peaceful until now, except for a short war against the Babs, which netted me their land north and a GL (Pyramids).
Just note that I tried to get 6 GL with my 4 Archers, but failed miserably. I'm really no good with computers.

Now I'm trying to build Sun Tsu and Leo and possibly the Sistine. Once I get the first two, it's a massive update and a war against the English (they are no. 1 overall) and later on against the Russians.
I'm researching at 40-50 turns and still manage to be on the lead (I researched IW, then went the Monarchy path), which I find a bit strange.
Sir Ralph, did you experience the same?
And before somebody asks me, I will post the game on my 'Emperor games' thread when I finish it.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Theseus
"alva trap" indeed.

So we have a new thing named after one of our posters?

But I still say Arrian's ready for Emperor. Especially with granaries and a *slight* willingness to adopt tighter city spacing.

He sure as hell is, he's just lazy to do the extra micromanaging, can't wave goodbye to his precious ancient/med wonders for growth's sake and as you mention, can't be arsed to do a CxxC spacing. Am I right, Arrian, lazy git?

In a way I can understand him, though, I seek myself an alloy of challenge and fun, that's why I never got appealed by deity (which is 90% challenge 10% fun), but don't play monarch anymore (90% fun 10% challenge).

SR, when C3C comes out, let's spend a little time comparing what's new, what you've done, and the AU Mod.

I've always felt that the AI is sub-optimized on purpose, and that we should be able to modify difficulty through tweaks rather than just starting resources and conditions.

In my mod my target was to playtest some tactical changes mainly in preparation of a tactical PBEM mod. What good are new combat conditions or clever tactics in SP, if the AI doesn't use it? So my goal (increasing fun in MP) is not the same as the goal of the AU mod (improving the AI in SP) and I don't know how both can get together. But I will gladly share my experiences.

By the way, I worked hard the whole weekend, to get a new scenario together. It replays the RP epic Ultima (which I'm a big fan of). Highlights are a limited timespan from swords to muskets (and thus stretched research), no exploring (well, everyone knows the map of Britannia), no city building (each of 8 tribes has 10 prebuilt cities at the "historical" locations, settlers are disabled), and large unsettled forests, mountains and swamps for sweet warfare. Luxuries are replaced by magic reagents (mandrake root, spider silk and alike). Each tribe has an UU, additionally out of basic units with the help of these reagents can be made "magic" units, like the Blackrock Swordsman, or the Spellthrower (Archer with range 2 bombardement). Chariots and War chariots will be able to transport foot and bombardement units (and have their attack taken away).

It's designed to be replayable scenario (like a pre-set gameboard, each game will turn out different) mainly for MP (PBEM), but also playable in SP for each tribe.

It's far from completion, though. Here's a screenie of the map. It's height is stretched 200%, because the map view stretches the width (width of tiles is twice their height).

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
I'm out the Ancient Age now. Germany is no. 1 in techs and growing quite well, thanks to a C-T-T-C spacing. It's been peaceful until now, except for a short war against the Babs, which netted me their land north and a GL (Pyramids).
Just note that I tried to get 6 GL with my 4 Archers, but failed miserably. I'm really no good with computers.

Looks like exactly my opening too. 1 leader (army, as all wonders were built) and 1 captured Babylonian city. I strive to keep my neighbors alive, I'm not the conquest type of players.

Now I'm trying to build Sun Tsu and Leo and possibly the Sistine. Once I get the first two, it's a massive update and a war against the English (they are no. 1 overall) and later on against the Russians.
I'm researching at 40-50 turns and still manage to be on the lead (I researched IW, then went the Monarchy path), which I find a bit strange.
Sir Ralph, did you experience the same?
And before somebody asks me, I will post the game on my 'Emperor games' thread when I finish it.

Well, yes, I did experience the same, hence my question if increasing the tech rate 25% didn't hurt the AI too much. After we got out of the Ancient age, only the English and French did any considerable research. I was at 0% all the time and looked for a good deal, but all deals were shite. Later I had to research Republic myself, because Liz had a Monopoly on it and wouldn't trade it except for a ridiculously high price (~3..4k, rough estimation). This part of the mod surely has to be worked with.

[notyoueither]

Unmodded, the AI will place a steep premium on certain techs.

[Arrian]

He sure as hell is, he's just lazy to do the extra micromanaging, can't wave goodbye to his precious ancient/med wonders for growth's sake and as you mention, can't be arsed to do a CxxC spacing. Am I right, Arrian, lazy git?

In a way I can understand him, though, I seek myself an alloy of challenge and fun, that's why I never got appealed by deity (which is 90% challenge 10% fun), but don't play monarch anymore (90% fun 10% challenge).

You've summed it up at the end there. Emperor = 90% challenge (work), 10% fun. Occasionally I desire that much challenge, but most of the time I just wanna play. And C-T-T-C turns my stomach. Too damn close!

ULTIMA! Sweet!

Do you have barb camps set up as the dungeons? HARDCORE barb camps, even?

The map looks great.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Well, the Dungeons are cities of the particular tribe, as barb camps (even strong ones) wouldn't last long. But I have some nasty ideas with barbarians. The large unsettled areas and the "raging" settings will cause LOTS of barbs, which are brown by the way, since white is already the color of Spirituality. Foot barbs will be Swordsmen, and mounted barbs will be a special unit available at CFC, featuring a knight riding on a Velociraptor. I think I make it 3.2.2, for a challenge. Barb tribe names will be "Ophidian", "Wyrmgarde", "Gargoyle", "Goblin", "Pirate" and other evil Ultima stuff.

[Arrian]

Ah. Sounds cool.

Victory conditions?

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Conquest, nothing else.

Backstory is, that LB has been killed and the Guardian trapped the Avatar in the Void. Mayhem and destruction was thrown upon Britannia, the Three schools of Virtues Empath Abbey, Serpents Hold and The Lycaeum destroyed (ruins encircled with pollution, looks scary ) along with LB's castle, the Temple of the Codex, the tower of Stonegate, the Gargoyle city of Ambrosia and Lord Blackthorns castle at Terfin too. They who were once friends and companions of the Avatar, are now enemies and compete for dominance in Britannia. The Timelord gave you, valiant stranger, the opportunity to get hold of one of these tribes (your choice) with the quest to re-unite Britannia, restore the Virtues, bla, bla, bla, you get the message.

There's btw an excellent "Ultima X" scenario in the directory. It inspired me greatly, but unfortunately it's not a scenario file but a plain Civ3 1.29f savegame, so I can't tinker with it and had to make all myself.

[Arrian]

Gotcha. I was wondering if you played around with a regicide option - killing Lord Brittish to win, that sort of thing.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

I was tempted with regicide, not with LB though, as he is not part of any of these tribes of a virtue, but stands above them. Thus, I had to have him out of the game. But the AI can't handle regicide well, so I decided against it for the sake of SP. I might add it in MP, but in this case I'd have to make 2 versions.

[Harovan]

I just had an idea: MP can't take more than 8 tribes, but SP can. What about having an extra SP version with LB and the Avatar being 2 powerful, but not replaceable units (like in the Ultima X save), and having been banned to the desert island of Terfin along with some of their most trusted troops (a decent army to start with) and 1-2 ships, but only one settler. The choice of the player is narrowed to one tribe only (and not 8 with different traits as in the scenario above), but we could have LB and the Avatar once more to liberate Britannia.

A lot to tinker with. But let me first think of a good tech tree and unit system. With this raw material we can have different versions.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
There's btw an excellent "Ultima X" scenario in the directory. It inspired me greatly, but unfortunately it's not a scenario file but a plain Civ3 1.29f savegame, so I can't tinker with it and had to make all myself.

I hesitate to mention this to you after you've done all that work ... but couldn't you have used that fancy tool that Gramphos developed to turn the .SAV file into a .bic? I'm pretty sure that is possible.

[Harovan]

FP, thanks for the tip, I will know in the future. But there's another reason why I didn't even look for such a tool: The Ulitima X scenario has a distorted map. To make it better looking at the minimap, it's stretched 2:1 along the Y-axis, which makes N-S distances twice as long as W-E distances, although they look the same. I made a map, what looks distorted in the minimap (looks stretched in the W-E direction), but has the right "geometry".

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Arrian


You've summed it up at the end there. Emperor = 90% challenge (work), 10% fun. Occasionally I desire that much challenge, but most of the time I just wanna play. And C-T-T-C turns my stomach. Too damn close!

-Arrian

Well, for me, Emperor is more 50-50. Your chances of winning are very good, even if you try something 'unusual', but ther level is high enough not to allow you to get sloppy in your management (cities, techs, wonders etc.).

As for the C-T-T-C, I agree it's a bit crowded, but again, it all depends on the map and number of civs. If the map is crowded 'at birth', a C-T-T-C gives you more punch (i.e. cities) for the same territory.

[Mountain Sage]

I'm a bit mor than halfway thru this game. As ususal, playing on huge maps with 24 civs takes a lot of time. I will post a short DAR in my 'Emperor games' when I'm finished.
In the meantime, some highlights...

What do you think? Are the French a bit paranoid about me wanting to capture their city or nobody told them RoP exist????
BTW, the city's name is Alesia...

[Mountain Sage]

Economic Power. No coments, except that I can't get my 5% interests with SmithTC. Somebody chould replace the game's accountant...

[Mountain Sage]

The AI is cheating
Ironclads should not be able to sail on ocean squares.
But of course, if an Ironclad protects a Galleon, he can escort it anywhere...