My (not really secret) project ;-)... - Page 4

VietMinh · July 21, 2000, 22:57

What civs are going to be in V2.0?
For sure;Rome,Persia,Carthage,Macedonians
mabye; Gauls...they could be simulated through barbarians, that goes for the germans,Celts so I guess there will be another greek civ mabye even more...You have to put Sparta independed from a generalised greek civ because 1)the greeks would be too powerful ( remember the main reason why greece didn't rule the mediteranaan like the Romans is because each peolis served as a brake on each other ) 2)the greek would have Spartan infantry 3)this could all be immaterial because you could have decided to do a generalised greek civ like in v1.0...I am playing v1.0 right now and being the greeks is too easy because they can neutralise the macedonians easely so I suggest that Sparta must be independant! I hope you won't put it as a barbarian city or as one of the independants because if this scenario is ( I believe ) a what if scenario then Sparta should be given it's chance at redemption.

But I understand that you cannot please everybody because you are to cover more than 300 years of history.

Stefan; Do you think that Darius v2.2 will be release before august 10? Will there be a unique Spartan infantry?

_____________________________________________

War bares a sword's steel.
Autumn leaves reflect color,
A samurai's blood.

Tai-Sho Minobu Tesuhara

Stefan Härtel · July 22, 2000, 04:57

quote:

"I am blind. But not deaf. And this incompleteness of my
misfortune forced me, nearly six hours long,
to listen to a self-proclaimed historian, whose opinions of
the 'Persian Wars' (As the Athenians like to call them),
were nothing but a single nonsense.
Well then, I do know the origins of the 'Greek Wars'. He
doesen't. How could he? How should a Greek know?
I spent the most time of my life in the Persian Court,
and even now, in my seventy-fifth year I serve the
Great King [Artaxerxes I] just like his father -my
beloved friend Xerxes- and much earlier his father,
a hero even the Greeks know as Dareios the Great."

-Persian envoy Cyrus Spitama in Pericles' Athens (from G. Vidal, "Creation", 1981)

(Just to get a picture of this scenario's nature

)

I will try to release it before August 10th, but I can't promise it. Yes, there will be a Spartan elite phalanx and an elite hoplite, which will appear randomly in Sparta. The Spartans will not be for play (perhaps playable), but be a though opponent for the Athenians and later the Persians.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

BeBro · July 22, 2000, 08:37

VietMinh, Civs are Romans, Persians, Carthagians, Macedonians, Greeks, probably Egyptians and Mediterreans (a collection of different people). Gauls, German, Brits and some others are Barbarians.
But I think there will be no independent Sparta, that would "waste" an entire civ for ONE city.
In fact I really don´t care about classifications like "historical" or "what if" for my scenarios. I simply try to make them fun to play. Sure, I include many historically accurate things (if possible with the civ limitations), but whenever it comes to a decision, I prefer playability and atmosphere.
So, also in V2.0 we´ll have these generalized Greeks. I know this is not ideal, but you are right, it´s hard to cover three , four or five centuries of ancient history in an accurate way.

And for V1.0: This was the first scn made by me, and I´m aware that there are many weak things, one more reason to make V2.0...

St.Leo, thanks for the help. V2.0 will have more of these events...

I´ll try to create something like an uprising level of difficutlty in the scn, so that the first conquests are relatively easy, but the next steps will be a little harder...and so on

VietMinh · July 22, 2000, 11:12

You are probably right to not make a separate spartan civ but the main idea was to put opposition at home so that the greeks are weak enough for the macedonians to roll over.
Why are you going to put the egyptians independant?I think Stefan's reason are valid not to put a independant civ...They were a vassal state through most of the scenario...
V1.0 wasn't weak in the sense of playability cause it's really fun to play but in the sense of what's suppose to happen, you did well to put the macedonians units superior to the others civs but they didn't have the production to pump enough units to roll over the greeks,Same thing with the Romans,they got conered so fast by the greeks and Carthagians that they couldn't break through... But then again mabye that because I play a defensive/siege game...

But the scn overall was VERY fun to play but it's just that history got altered.

Stefan; Will negociations be possible and will the persian units be better than all the other civs?
_____________________________________________

War bares a sword's steel.
Autumn leaves reflect color,
A samurai's blood.

Tai-Sho Minobu Tesuhara

St Leo · July 22, 2000, 11:47

* (x2/3/4) *

Copy the event using Notepad twice/thrice/four times (tetrice? quadrice?).

Shadowstrike · July 22, 2000, 13:12

Don't forget to give the Macedonians units for capturing Pesian cities and killing certain units.
Near the end of the scenario, have some barbarian hordes rain down on the Danube front, like in history. It would delay Roman progress into the region (it took them a long time to conquer Dacia)
You could change Carthagians to Pheonicians and use the "other civs" slot to simulate a Celtic/Etruscan people. The barbarians could be everyone else (which leaves raiders and a few peoples)
[edited message instead of posting new one]
[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited July 22, 2000).]

BeBro · July 22, 2000, 13:30

Shadowstrike, the Etruscans will be in the "other civ", as well as Samnites and some otheres. The Celts will be Barbarians (as the Greeks and Romans thought...

).
Another idea I had: If I leave out the Egyptians, I could split up the Greeks in two civs (1. in Hellas, 2. the colonies around the Mediterranean). But first comes the map.

DarthVeda · July 22, 2000, 13:59

looking good... and did you know this is the thread with the most replies since red front in the SL? Most of them pointless... but...

BeBro · July 22, 2000, 15:08

Really, DarthVeda? To bad that I wasn´t active here at the SLeague Forum at that RedFront time. But for this thread I have to say that most of the replies are really useful (perhaps except my own

)

VietMinh · July 22, 2000, 16:26

So the Egyptians will serve as a brake to the persinas like what the Etruscans and Samnites and the other Italic people to Rome,nice...

I have ( yes other) a suggestion, why don't you simulate the problems in persia ( Satrap uprising,native tribe unrest) with barbarians like in Artaxerxes; "Scythians raiding the Medians". The same can be applied in Greece not for uprisings but for the poleis' squabbles like Michael Jeszenka did in his "Danube" scenario.

_____________________________________________

War bares a sword's steel.
Autumn leaves reflect color,
A samurai's blood.

St Leo · July 22, 2000, 19:57

That's probably pointless in a scenario recommended for playing as Romans.

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

VietMinh · July 22, 2000, 23:41

I beg to differ St Leo, the recommeded civ is the Romans but this scenario is suppose to be somewhat accurate in the historic departement. I believe that my suggestion is not pointless because 2d recommeded civ is the macedonians so for history to repeat itself, The persians and the greeks should be weakeneded so that the Macedonians can roll over them. My suggestions ( I believe)are to make the scn more realistic. This is just my opinion, St Leo.
_____________________________________________

War bares a sword's steel.
Autumn leaves reflect color,
A samurai's blood.

Tai-Sho Minobu Tesuhara
[This message has been edited by VietMinh (edited July 22, 2000).]

BeBro · July 23, 2000, 00:38

Thanks, VietMinh, for your comments. For the Egyptians we had a discussion earlier in this thread. Yes, most of the time they were occupied by othere civs, but in 386BC, when V2.0 starts they were independent after a revolt against Persia. The reason why they would be in the scn is simple: I need them sandwiched between Carthage and Persia. They should be reconquered by the Persians to prevent that the Persians have to many cities from the beginning. This is a expierience from V1.0, where the Persians were to strong.
As a second option, I could make them a part of these Mediterrenean civ or Barbarian, which would give me one more civ. But the decision about this will fall later, currently I´m working on the map (a bit slow...

).
Perhaps I´ll post a new preview of the finished map in the next days to get some feedback, because I´m still unsure about it...

BeBro · July 23, 2000, 08:31

Generally, all suggestions are welcome. I´ll see what parts I can include in the scn and what not...

I think at the moment, most events will be used for creating enemy/barbarian units, then there will be some for the capture of important cities. After that I hope I have enough events space left for some nice other things...

July 23, 2000, 09:25

hey, fellows! what are you talking about?

spamming on-topic is funny!

Shadowstrike · July 23, 2000, 10:30

In that case, I suggest filling up (more or less) the extra spaces outside the Roman Empire with barbarian cities. This would prevent the Romans from building their cities in the barbarian lands. Give the Celts a Vercingetorix unit. Make diplomatic units Roman only, and call it a "Romanizer". Add color events. The barbarian cities could be named the same as historical tribes. Then, you could manage Scytian raids into Media with barbarians.

St Leo · July 23, 2000, 11:04

You'll definetly need two event files then.

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

Prometeus · July 23, 2000, 15:21

quote:

Originally posted by Shadowstrike on 07-23-2000 10:30 AM
Give the Celts a Vercingetorix unit.

Hmmm... better if you name this unit "brennus" ( it seemed to indicate Celtic military chief - maybe create an event to recreate this unit every time it's killed.).

Trust me, i'm currently working on a Cisalpine Gaul scenario also...

BeBro · July 23, 2000, 16:58

Unfortunately, as said before, I haven´t enough units slots for generals/heroes (and I´ll avoid multiple files).
Otherwise I would include also a Maximus unit...

In fact, this scn will have lots of units, and most of the V1.0 units are reworked or completely new.

And Shadowstrike, lots of Barb cities in the North was exactly my idea. But I´ll name their units after their tribes, not the cities.

Ok, the map is nearly finished

, tomorrow I´ll post a pic of it. I´m satisfied with Europe, but need some help with the eastern region (Scythia, Persia...)

.
[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited July 23, 2000).]

Shadowstrike · July 23, 2000, 17:19

Are you going to use "hyper-production" squares? They would provide historical accuracy by making certain regions more useful once conquered (i.e. the Fertile Valley, Egypt (both food) Greece (trade), etc.)

If you need a playtester, I'll do it (only on the easier levels though, I'm not much of a Civ player)

Stefan Härtel · July 23, 2000, 17:24

Scythian raids were not as common in 386 BC... satrap revolts were. I wouldn't waste the events space for scythians and concentrate both on the satrapal revolts against Artaxerxes II and III, and Artaxerxes' campaigns against Phoenecia and Egypt in the late 340s.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

Shadowstrike · July 23, 2000, 17:55

Quite true. In a scenario covering a span of time as large as this, event space is precious. I'm all for dropping the Scytian raids. Let the barbarian cities make units for these raids, not your event file!

St Leo · July 23, 2000, 19:55

(and I´ll avoid multiple files).

You will need two event files if you want Macedonia to be both playable as a human and realistic as an AI.

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

Sloth · July 24, 2000, 03:28

I agree with the ban to build diplos...but what about a few via events (if you have the space) like in John Ellis's scenarios? It's fun to ponder how to use your precious spy (

imagine Sloth, dressed like Amlet, uttering: to steal "Mounted Archery" or bribing Ecbatana up that mountain, this is the problem...)

P.S. After a brief survey I found this to be The Most replied ever thread in SL!

[This message has been edited by Sloth (edited July 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Sloth (edited July 24, 2000).]

BeBro · July 24, 2000, 08:34

Ok, here is the map, in two parts:

I think Europe is ok, but I need some help with the terrain in the east. Suggestions are welcome.

However, after the map passes this test, the real work begins...

Note: the white squares are a different kind of desert.

St.Leo, I´m thinking about making different events and rules for Macedonians and Romans, and the Player could choose his civ (and it´s rules/events set) before he starts the scn (like in "Seeds of Greatness", I think), but what I mean was that I´ll avoid that you have to load different files while the scn runs...

Shadowstrike, perhaps I´ll simulate the strenghts of different civs (trade, prod, science) in another way, but I have to test this first...

I agree with you that the Barbs should produce some units, but sometimes I have problems with this. In Cross&Crescent, despite all my efforts, my Barb cities produce nothing (the civ2 AI is a great mystery

, so I finally used events for this.

Sloth, stealing of techs is exactly what I´ll avoid in the scn, because of the civ-specific techtrees (and units). No/No techs are not an option, because I like research, but not techs given by events (a few may be). I could include some diplos with events, but disable the "steal tech" option so that you can use them for bribing?

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited July 24, 2000).]

Sloth · July 24, 2000, 08:53

The map seems perfect to me but...I'm not really an expert.
Including diplos via events disabling "steal tech", if this spoils the game, could be a very good choice. Anyway my Amlet pondering is almost always resolved by bribing a city

Shadowstrike · July 24, 2000, 08:57

Isn't there more fertile land in Egypt and Mesopotamia (I might be wrong on this). If I can see the cities properly, Rome, Athens and Carthage all appear to be Roman. Overall, great map, how big is it?
[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited July 24, 2000).]

Prometeus · July 24, 2000, 09:04

Exactly, BeBro, what kind of help do you need? An habitat feedback? Or a geographical hint? Maybe i can help you...

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Ave atque vale...

Sloth · July 24, 2000, 09:08

The fertile land in Egypt was wide "the distance that a man can walk in two hours"...not more that one square in civ terms.
Also on Mesopotamia the map seems quite right to me; if you want you can add a region of swamps in the far south of Mesopotamia near the mouth of Tigris and Euphrates.

Prometeus · July 24, 2000, 09:14

Less trees in Southern Russia ( ahem, now Ucraina ) and Siria, BeBro...