Thread Tools
Old October 15, 2003, 08:04   #151
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
@Tingkai who seems to wander away in his thoughts from common sense.
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 08:07   #152
Tingkai
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity
America has slid back in recent years... they're really about where they were in the late '50s in many respects. If that.

A vigorous space program could leapfrog the US within a decade. Not that China is likely to try, though.
I partially agree with you, but I wouldn't say the US has slid back. It is just stagnating. 30 years ago they had skylab, after the Russian did it, now they're still working on its repacement.

Unfortunately, the US government prefers to spend hundreds of billions of dollars invading and occupying other countries.

Imagine what the US could have done with the billions that Junior is wasting on Iraq.

Meanwhile China is moving forward, creating jobs for engineers and scientists, developing real knowledge of technology, establishing a high-tech industry, creating goals for kids to pursue, opening the way for further economic growth.

China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States.
Tingkai is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 10:09   #153
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
Congrats China!

The next milestone is much more expensive.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 10:14   #154
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
Quote:
China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States.
nah. NASA and the soviets were breaking ground. China is treading on a well-known path.
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 12:06   #155
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149


Way to go, China!

mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 12:11   #156
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally posted by DanS

And much of it is just a rebadged Russian product.
According to the New York Times, the Chinese purchased what was basically an empty shell of a Soyuz, so quite a bit of the technology was Chinese-designed.

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/14/science/space/14CHIN.html?pagewanted=2&8bl

They didn't buy a whole Soyuz," said Mr. Clark, who writes space books and articles from Britain. "It was a descent module stripped of innards, so mostly a shell." The Chinese also bought a life-support system, he added, and a pressurized suit for wearing inside the spacecraft.

Experts said the Chinese carefully studied and adapted Russian gear to their own needs. "They had to build and test and prove everything themselves," said Mr. Oberg, who lives near Houston. "So most of the similarities are superficial. The one exception is the suit. It copies the Russian design down to the stitching pattern."
mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 12:23   #157
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
I'm referring to the larger product. The astronauts were trained in Russia, etc. Also, the lead rocket designer and I'm sure many/most others are Russian-trained.

Of course, this isn't bad. Why reinvent the wheel?
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 12:38   #158
Tingkai
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Quote:
China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States.
nah. NASA and the soviets were breaking ground. China is treading on a well-known path.
Now this could be a typical comment from a loser who tries to justifies his failure by success of others.

Or it could be ironic complacency.

There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians.

Thankfully, that attitude no longer rules.
Tingkai is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 12:45   #159
Tingkai
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I'm referring to the larger product. The astronauts were trained in Russia, etc. Also, the lead rocket designer and I'm sure many/most others are Russian-trained.

Of course, this isn't bad. Why reinvent the wheel?
True.

Sure, Russia provided the initial jump start in knowledge and from there the Chinese developed a better system. It's similar to the jump start the Americans received from German knowledge. That doesn't diminish the incredible accomplishment achieved by the US, what I consider the shining example of what American society can achieve.
Tingkai is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:15   #160
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Re: Yeah, everyone toots their own horns
Quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
My understanding was that the maglev was a project undertaken by a German enr & constr firm,
Sorry, you missed my point. My point was that China is the first country to have an operating mag-lev passenger line. Germans and Japanese created the tech, but only built test tracks.

As for Shanghai's train, A German company provided the technology and the first train. Chinese built the tracks, and are now building the other "rolling" stock.


Quote:
and the tallest building under construction (Union Square Phase 7 due in 2007) is in continuation of a pre-takeover Hong Kong project.
Actually, the tallest under construction is the Shanghai World Financial Center in Pudong, Shanghai, scheduled to be completed in 2007 (some sources say 2005). It will stand at 492 m (1,624 ft), with 101 stories.


Quote:
China was admitted to the WTO in hopes of leveraging diplomatic influence to improve workers rights and induce freedom of trade.
I agree, but the point is the significance of joining in terms of China's coming of age internationally.


Quote:
Everybody knows IOC members were falling for the wine, women & song routine (and a few bribes to close the deal) all through the '90s. Can the World Expo be that different?
Undoubtedly that occurred! Wine, women, and song is a standard business operating procedure in China. But again, the symbolism is very significant. Nobody remembers the problems associated with the Crystal Palace Exhibition.

Quote:
As for the Three Gorges Dam ...
I, too, fear for the potentially massive environmental problems associated with the project. But again, the point was they are building the largest dam and hydroelectric powerplant in the history of man.

As I said in my original post, "Taken together it's pretty impressive, (...) a great symbolic turning point in Chinese (and world) history."
mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:17   #161
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
Quote:
It's similar to the jump start the Americans received from German knowledge.
Not very similar. So far, in an 11-year time-frame, the Chinese have have matched what the Russians did 45 years ago, not surpassed it, as both the US and USSR teams did within 10 years of obtaining the German technology.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:39   #162
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
Quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Now this could be a typical comment from a loser who tries to justifies his failure by success of others.
My failure to build a space rocket is killing me from the inside.

Quote:
Or it could be ironic complacency.
Complacent? Should I be worried about something? WTG to China for the success in launching a human into orbit, but that stuff was done 40 years ago, and all the spinoff technologies and practices have been used for quite some time. It's a necessary step in space exploration, but it'll hardly bring the benefits the first space exploration brought.

Quote:
There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians.

Thankfully, that attitude no longer rules.
I am not saying China shouldn't progress into space. Indeed, that Chinese complacency is what allowed the west to rule the world for hundreds of years now, through the onset of modern times, to this very day. However, what I am saying is this step is hardly significant, in terms of real progress. To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more.


Oh, and the comparison with German knowledge is not in place. Did the Germans reach space?
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:44   #163
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai

There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians.
Uh, I don't think that's true. The fleet was destroyed due, primarily, to political in-fighting at the imperial court.

Far from "been there, done that", the dealings with the "barbarians" brought vast riches to China, so profitable that the court eunuchs who were running the show became very wealthy and powerful. According to Louise Levathes' well-documented "When China Ruled the Seas", the reasons for the decline of the fleet were:

* Conflict at the court between the Confucian officials and the wealthy eunuchs (the Confucians gained the upper hand and were able to have the fleet burned and shipyards abandoned. They were able to enact law that disallowed the construction of multi-masted sea-going vessels).
* Opening of the Grand Canal precipitated a shift in the focus of ship-building from sea-going vessels to canal-faring barges
* Extreme inflation (Ming paper money lost 99% of its value) ruined international trade
* The threat of the Mongols (who had recently captured the Emporer himself!) required re-allocating military resources from coastal activities to Great Wall-centered efforts.

The saddest chapter occurred later when a eunuch official demanded all of the records of the "Treasure Fleet" in an attempt to rekindle interest in voyaging abroad. In response, the Vice President of the Ministry of War ordered all of the records to be either hidden or destroyed. All of the priceless documentation was lost forever.

Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.
mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:50   #164
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally postedby Azazel
To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more. .
Is someone saying that? I dont' think anyone is claiming that it proves China's technological superiority. It's really a coming-of-age statement.

Quote:
Oh, and the comparison with German knowledge is not in place. Did the Germans reach space?
I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.

Edit: added second quote & response
mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 13:55   #165
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
Quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
Quote:
Originally postedby Azazel
To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more. .
Is someone saying that? I dont' think anyone is claiming that it proves China's technological superiority. It's really a coming-of-age statement.
coming-of-age as what?
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 14:00   #166
mindseye
King
 
mindseye's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: A Yankee living in Shanghai
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
coming-of-age as what?
Dude, have you read this thread? Coming of age as a major player in the international community, complete with modern technological expertise.

(Note: I edited my previous post while you were posting. Sorry!)
mindseye is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 14:21   #167
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 13:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
Well, I always considered China a major player in the International community. Of course, this step gives them lots of prestige, and respect, since it's an obvious great achievement. HOWEVER, it still doesn't change two facts: China is still not an alternative superpower, nor does it fit into the 1st world living criteria ( and yes, I know that many people live there as if they were 1st worlders )

Quote:
I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.
What do you mean by 'tarnish'? Of course, all knowledge is based on previous knowledge. It does however render it marginal, since no actual progress was achieved. Nothing new or exceptional was done.



Look, people, I am not saying that this isn't great. I am very happy that China got a person in space. HOWEVER, I am saying that there is nothing amazing in it.

Btw, did Japan try to launch a person into space or am I mistaken?
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 20:51   #168
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
impressive

even if they did copy off the russians
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 21:02   #169
Q Classic
Emperor
 
Q Classic's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
japan has never tried on its own. it's sent 'em up on other countries' rockets.
__________________
B♭3
Q Classic is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 21:20   #170
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
Quote:
Originally posted by mindseye

I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.
Yeah, don't forget that the US profited mightily from the cancellation of Canada's Avro Arrow Program.
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 21:39   #171
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
Japan, Germany, UK, France, to name a few
Eh, Canada has a space program.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 21:42   #172
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
What I'm most interested in, is what China has planned for the future.

This flight doesn't interest me that much. But what do they plan on doing now they can reach space?
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 22:25   #173
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
coming-of-age as what?
A world power, circa 1950.

Quote:
Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 23:02   #174
Lonestar
inmate
King
 
Lonestar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The 3rd best place to live in the USA.
Posts: 2,744
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


Quote:
Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.
Actually, the "Japanese Pirates" where Chinee on Taiwan.
__________________
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worth while, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: "I served in the United States Navy!"
"Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I ****ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective." --Barack Obama
Lonestar is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 23:43   #175
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
Actually, the "Japanese Pirates" where Chinee on Taiwan.
Some of them were, but there were also actual Japanese pirates, operating out of Kyushu and the Inland Sea.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 15, 2003, 23:47   #176
ixnay
Civilization II Democracy GamePtWDG Lux InvictaPtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV CreatorsAge of Nations Team
Emperor
 
ixnay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 3,215
Quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
What I'm most interested in, is what China has planned for the future.

This flight doesn't interest me that much. But what do they plan on doing now they can reach space?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/1...ace/index.html

Quote:
If all goes well with the early manned flights, the Chinese plan to launch a satellite to the moon within three years. After that, China plans to launch a space station. The goal is to establish a permanent outpost on the moon within 15 years.
ixnay is offline  
Old October 16, 2003, 00:07   #177
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Congratulations to China on the successful trip, and welcome to the club!
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old October 16, 2003, 00:29   #178
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
well if they make a manned flight to the moon, I will be very, very impressed.

I may even move to China

Trips to the moon require a much bigger rocket and a lot more complicated operations. Reaching orbit is actually fairly easy now days. But getting to the surface of the moons is still not routine.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old October 16, 2003, 03:50   #179
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
I am dearly hoping that this will encourage us to get off our asses and back into it.

We really have to get off this rock.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old October 16, 2003, 05:49   #180
Curiosity
Warlord
 
Curiosity's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:13
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Quote:
America has slid back in recent years... they're really about where they were in the late '50s in many respects. If that.


Don't remember those late 50's space stations.
Remember Skylab, built using Saturn V hardware? Yes, 60's rather than 50's... but there were no technological leaps in between. And the Saturn V was pretty much the pinacle of US orbital launch technology.

For a comparison with the 50's - remember the X-15 project? The recent X-34 was extremely similar, yet it failed utterly where dragging a piece of hardware out of a museum would have fulfilled most of the project requirements.
Curiosity is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:13.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team