Thread Tools
Old October 9, 2003, 06:49   #1
Turrosh Mak
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 10:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 63
Which wonder would you chose, part 2
You have a choice of either or of the following wonders, how would you rank their usefulness over a long game, huge map, 60% continents?

Leo's Workshop
Smiths Trading Post
Magellans Voyage
Bachs Cathedral
Turrosh Mak is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 07:34   #2
PeaSoup
Warlord
 
Local Time: 03:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 139
here's how I'd rate them from most important to least (to me at least)

Smiths Trading Post
Bachs Cathedral
Leo's Workshop
Magellans Voyage
PeaSoup is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 08:15   #3
statusperfect
King
 
statusperfect's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,333
Depends on the situation.

What is you strategy??
statusperfect is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 09:22   #4
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Depends. Are you planning a mass upgrade of forces to try and go a-conquering? Or are you playing as more of a peaceful builder type? Leonardo's value varies wildly depending on your style of play.

The only one I can rank for certain is Magellan's. I like it and all, but it's gotta be #4 on that list.

The other issue is this: if your plan is conquest, then not only is Leo's directly powerful for the upgrading, but it is indirectly powerful because the conquering you do may gain you one or more of the wonders you chose not to build. Any idea of where Bach or Smith would end up if you build Leos?

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 09:30   #5
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
I have to add one more "depends"

If you plan to wage wars (like aiming for domination or conquest) and do massive upgrades of expensive units (I talk about upgrading Chariots to Sipahi and alike), it's Leo's hands down.

If you suffer happiness problems, because you are short of luxuries, it's Bach's.

If it's an archipelago map and you plan a naval powerplay, it's Magellan's. Admittedly, this one is the weakest of all wonders you mentioned, even if you're such an island hopper as I am.

If you're a builder nature at heart (again, like I am), Smith's is the way to go. The amount of money it saves is insane, especially on larger maps / with bigger empires.

EDIT: Considering the map conditions you mentioned, it's either Leo's (planning warmongering) or Smith's (planning to build). On huge continents are usually plenty luxuries, so happiness shouldn't be a problem, and Magellan's is next to worthless at this map.
Harovan is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 09:36   #6
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
The first issue is it depends on which civ you are playing as you could be looking for one of these wonders to trigger a GA - which makes that particular wonder more valuable.

Apart from that it has to be Leo's if you are going a-conquering and Smiths if you are playing a balanced mixture of war and peace or a completely peaceful game.

Magellan is nice but nothing special and Bach depends on how many cities might benefit on a continents map.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 13:24   #7
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Definitely an "it depends" answer, but I'd say Smith's is the better choice in most cases.

If you've prepared for a massive horse-to-cav upgrade, Leo's might be the right answer. But absent that, I'd be inclined to go with Smith's, even if you plan to go a-conquering. On a huge map, max land, continents, and a "long game," you're going to save a massive amount of cash over the long run with Smith's due to the number of cities you will control. And, I'd wager that you'll also save more in the short term unless you're preparing the horse-to-cav rush. If you already have knights, the upgrade cost to cavs is small. I am one of those players who only selectively upgrades pikes to muskets (where needed), and rarely researches Nationalism -- more often than not, I'll build an infantry force from scratch so there are only limited upgrade costs on the defensive side. In short, if you actually have a chance to build any of the four wonders (but only one), I'd wager Smith's is the better choice.

A couple of caveats -- both Smith's and Leo's can be captured later -- Bach's can be captured but you need it on your landmass. If a neighbor (preferably a weaker neighbor ) was closest in the wonder race, I'd probably build Leo's and expect to take Smith's as soon as it was built.

Bach's is great, and one I covet, but only rarely is it a "must have" in my games. On a huge map, with luxuries more widely dispersed, Bach's stock goes up, but not, IMHO, enough to cast aside Smith's. Magellan's is a "nice to have" wonder, rarely (if ever) a must have. BTW, having Leo's, Smith's, and Magellan's available seeems a bit rare to me -- I would have thought Leo's would be gone by now.

So, absent a planned and pending horse-to-cav upgrade and rush (and even then I'm not sure I'd change the order), I'd rank them as:

Smith's
Leo's
Bach's
Magellan's

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 13:41   #8
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
I think if you're going for a "Horseman to Cavalry" strategy, Leo's is definitely the top choice; Smith's will pay off in the long run, but you need all that Gold (so to speak) now when you're rushing the opposition. 1000 Gold right now in Cavalry upgrades is well worth 2-3k many more turns down the road.

Trying to avoid a "it depends" answer, here would be my ranking:

Leo's
Smith's
Bach's
Magellan's

(Side rant: why did Michelango get shafted out of having his Wonder named after him? Every other Medieval era Wonder is named after some famous dude, why not Michelangelo. Definitely something I hope to see fixed in Conquests!).


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 14:35   #9
Rhothaerill
supporter
C4DG SarantiumPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization III Democracy GamePtWDG2 TabemonoInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolyton Storywriters' GuildApolyton UniversityCivilization IV PBEMC4WDG Huygen's UnionC3CDG Euphorica
Emperor
 
Rhothaerill's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vincent is back!
Posts: 6,844
Having just now done that horseman to cavalry upgrade and having Leo's available to me I'm slightly biased. Then again I would pick Leo's over Smith's almost any day. My ranking would be the exact same as Dominae's above.

Then again though, AU209 opened me up to the possibilities of being able to win the game on emperor without building a single great wonder throughout, and only capturing Sun Tzu until the very end when I captured a few more useless wonders.
Rhothaerill is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 15:42   #10
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
I've got to go with the majority here and say the order of the first two may depend, but in large part...

Smith's
Leo's
Bach's
Magellan's

Your map conditions describe just about every game I play, and Smith's is immensely powerful there (markets, airports and harbors in single shield cities with no upkeeep even appeals to warmongers). Likewise, Leo's is extremely powerful with the 300-unit armies that aren't uncommon on such a map, at least for me. I would bump it up to #1 if planning a mass Cav conquest, but right now I'm in the Modern Age mindset, where because of Smith's in large part, I've got enough of a treasury stockpiled to pay for the full upgrade price without batting an eye. Had you asked when my current game was late Middle Ages, I'd have probably reversed the top two.

Rest assured, though, once I build my one, I'm planning to take the others very quickly.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 16:20   #11
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
(Side rant: why did Michelango get shafted out of having his Wonder named after him? Every other Medieval era Wonder is named after some famous dude, why not Michelangelo.
That would be just another name for the Sistine Chapel, wouldn't it?
Harovan is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:40   #12
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
"Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel" would be more fair, then. Take out his work and you've got pretty boring dome there (just like if you take out Bach's music, the cathedral would be awfully silent and boring too).

I hate inconsistencies, and so naming all Medieval era Wonders after famous people save one is just annoying for me. Something I'll just have to live with, I guess (hm, maybe not...editor?).


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 17:42   #13
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
I would go for Smiths, generally. If I didn't already have the Sistine Chapel, I might go for Bachs.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 18:38   #14
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Dom, maybe it's keyed to the primary recognition of the casual observer, for instance...

"Oh, I love Bach's music... it was played in a cathedral, right?"

As compared with...

"Oh, I love the Sistine Chapel... wait, that was Michelangelo, right?"

Yeah, I don't really buy it either, but just trying to help you out.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 19:59   #15
Dominae
BtS Tri-LeaguePtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering StormApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Dominae's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,017
Thanks for the help, but I (and many others, I'm sure) associate the Sistine Chapel and Michelangelo far more readily than Bach and any old cathedral (I associate Bach with music and religion, not a building).


Dominae
__________________
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
Dominae is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 22:59   #16
WackenOpenAir
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 10:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 53
Bach's
leonardo's
smiths
magelans.

magelans gets low because i prefer pangea maps anyway.

leonardos gets high because im a warmangerer

bachs gets highest because i play deity.
WackenOpenAir is offline  
Old October 9, 2003, 23:53   #17
Danarchy
Settler
 
Danarchy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Washington State, USA
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi Smith's
Leo's
Bach's
Magellan's
That's what I'd say to, though I might consider putting Megellan's up a notch on the importance list if the map was an archipelago or very watery continental.
Danarchy is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 00:22   #18
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Thanks for the help, but I (and many others, I'm sure) associate the Sistine Chapel and Michelangelo far more readily than Bach and any old cathedral (I associate Bach with music and religion, not a building).


Dominae
That's kind of what I'm saying. The cathedral has to have Bach, game-wise, to be anything more than just a cathedral. Sistine is Sistine, and Michelangelo created the only one. Actually, I like this better than my original swipe at an explanation. The others all need the person's name for recognition

Sun Tzu's and the Globe Theater, though, break the mold then.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 03:57   #19
nbarclay
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
nbarclay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 6,676
I agree with Catt and Dominae regarding Leo's and Smith's. If I'm planning a massive horseman-to-cavalry upgrade (which is one of my favorite tactics), getting Leo's is a high priority for me. Otherwise, it's no big deal.

On those map settings, Magellan's would be at its most useful if you expect to invade the other continent(s) before airports become available. If you do, it might be more useful than Bach's. Otherwise, its value is minimal.

The value of Bach's depends a lot on city spacing and on how hard it's going to be to acquire luxuries. In most of my games, I use a tight city spacing and can build a tech lead to trade techs for luxuries (plus cash and other goodies), so I don't mind missing Bach's. But with bigger cities and having to pay gold for luxuries, Bach's can make a much bigger difference.

In a way, I'm sorry I can't give a more definitive answer, but in another way, I'm glad. The fact that different wonders have different values in different situations is a significant part of what keeps Civ fun even after playing it for a long time.

Nathan
nbarclay is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 04:54   #20
nbarclay
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
nbarclay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 6,676
Quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi

Sun Tzu's and the Globe Theater, though, break the mold then.
There are three basic categories that wonders can fall in with regard to naming. Some, like "Magellan's Voyage" and "Smith's Trading Company" would be completely meaningless without a person's name attached. There have been countless voyages and more than a few trading companies over the centuries.

The second category is one in which the wonder could, at least in theory, be adequately identified without using a person's name but its identity is signifcantly clearer with a name attached. "Art of War" and "Globe Theater" could potentially be identified without attaching a person's name, but many people would miss the significance without the person's name attached. Anyone who has heard of Shakespeare would understand that "Shakespeare's Theater" is important, but fewer people would make the connection with the name Globe Theater. (Actually, "Bach's Cathedral" almost certainly has another name in real-world history, but how many people would know it to make the connection?) Similarly, attaching Sun Tsu's name to his Art of War provides a useful clarification for the unfamiliar.

The third category is wonders like the Pyramids, Colossus, and Sistine Chapel that are well-known in their own right. Where the Globe Theater and Bach's Cathedral (whatever its actual name was) had merely transitory significance as the place famous works were originally performed, Michelangelo's work on the Sistine Chapel is an integral and lasting part of it. That gives the Sistine Chapel a kind of lasting significance that the other places do not have.

Nathan
nbarclay is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 08:43   #21
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Whilst flying off-topic on this nomenclature issue, I might add that Smith's Trading company is a wierd name. Adam Smith was a pure theorist, and didn't previous Civs/CTP have the East India Company instead?

The latter was a highly effective tool of Imperialism, therefore more appropriate for a Civ Wonder. Adam Smith was a visionary and an idealist, seeing human freedom linked with free trade. Free trade was for all was not the embodiment of the East India Company, which represented freedom of capital, but not freedom of labour.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 08:49   #22
Cort Haus
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
Cort Haus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 12,012
Back on topic, I'm a fan of Leo's, though for different reasons than for most people, it seems. I use it for the defensive builder.

Pikemen to Muskets are an expensive upgrade, and if the threat-board is running low, I'll often wait for Rifles of even Infantry before upgrading.

If neigbours are more threatening, esp if they've got Knight-era UUs, I like to get the Muskets up fast, and without breaking too much into my infrastructure build programs. If I have Leos, I can raise the defensive level much easier than without.
Cort Haus is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 15:32   #23
Stuie
King
 
Stuie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
Re: Which wonder would you chose, part 2
Quote:
Originally posted by Turrosh Mak
Leo's Workshop
Smiths Trading Post
Magellans Voyage
Bachs Cathedral
You posted them in my order of preference.

I always put an emphasis on obtaining (through trade or otherwise ) all eight luxuries, so once hooked up, Bach doesn't do much for me. Leo and Smith both let me save money, probably more so Leo's if I'm playing a large map with a huge military. Magellan? I can take it or leave it.
__________________
"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
Stuie is offline  
Old October 10, 2003, 20:42   #24
Datajack Franit
NationStates
King
 
Datajack Franit's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Italia
Posts: 2,036
For EVERY civ game including large masses of land:

JS Bach's
Sistine
Pyramids
Sun Tzu's
__________________
I will never understand why some people on Apolyton find you so clever. You're predictable, mundane, and a google-whore and the most observant of us all know this. Your battles of "wits" rely on obscurity and whenever you fail to find something sufficiently obscure, like this, you just act like a 5 year old. Congratulations, molly.

Asher on molly bloom
Datajack Franit is offline  
Old October 11, 2003, 01:38   #25
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
For EVERY civ game including large masses of land:

JS Bach's
Sistine
Pyramids
Sun Tzu's
Ummm, okay but not quite...

For one thing, you replaced three of the stipulated wonders. For another, you completely miss the aspect of different playstyles. For someone who builds cathedrals in every city, Sistine's is going to be more valuable than Bach's. For a warmonger without a militaristic civ, Sun Tzu's is likely to be a higher priority than any of the other three you list. Personally, ever since I moved to Monarch, I don't even try for the Pyramids, but rather hope somebody on my continent builds it. Of the four you listed, with my playstyle, I'd rank them Sun Tzu's, Sistine, Pyramids, Bach's, with Pyramids and Sistine potentially swapped depending on circumstances.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old October 11, 2003, 14:07   #26
WackenOpenAir
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 10:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 53
i do build cathedrals in every city, but i do not value sistine higher than bachs. maybe equal i think.

bachs is more versatile in that when you build or conquer a new city you have the benefit before you buid a catherdral.

furthermore, building pyramids is simply impossible (on deity) so i give it 0 priority.

leo's and sun tsu i very like because i am a warmongerer, but i see them as bonus wonders. they are not necesarry for my succes, they just make it easier. while at least one of the happyness wonders is pretty much nescesary.

Smith's is not so important for me, i usually am to busy building units and stuff to bother building any more economy than marketplaces.

magelans doesn't mean much for me, on island maps it would have average priority probably, but not high
WackenOpenAir is offline  
Old October 21, 2003, 19:16   #27
MysteryMan
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 10:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 40
First of all, if I had to be stranded in a random Civ III game with only one wonder, it would be the Sistine Chapel, no hesitation, no questions asked.

However, which of the four (Leo, Bach, Maggie, Smith) is best depends on your game and your settings and your style.

Leonardo's Workshop is actually MORE important for me if I'm a builder as I don't want to actually have to BUILD new defensive units, nor do I want to pay a whole lot
Magelan's Expedition is a very hit or miss wonder. It can be a large advantage, but only under limited circumstances (archapalaego map, your involved in a high tech naval war, or one of your enemies is a big naval power - you wouldn't want THEM to build it, would you? This is the Hasek Theory at work again).
I'm very sorry but Bach's I use only for the culture. Since I have EVERYTHING concentrated on getting the Sistine, thus doubling my cathedrals, Bach's is just the icing on the cake (unless you are trying for a cultural win). Don't get me wrong, Bachs is very good, but the Sistine is just so much better that it is put to shame.
And that brings me to Smith. Well, it sure is nice getting them free marketplaces and banks. Sometimes that alone is the difference between a rich civ and a poor civ. This wonder is worth much more on larger maps.

However, all factors being equal, this is my order of importance:

Leo (both an economic and a military advantage)
Smith (economic edge)
Maggie (naval power/shorten supply lines)
...what was that other one again? (build the Sistine and forget about Bach)
MysteryMan is offline  
Old October 21, 2003, 20:15   #28
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Quote:
bachs is more versatile in that when you build or conquer a new city you have the benefit before you buid a catherdral.
Another perfect example of my larger point (different playstyles).

By the time I have Sistine and/or Bach, I'm also racing to get into Democracy (largely for the worker boost, but also for the lessened corruption), and my concern in war is more with keeping my own cities happy long enough to achieve my war objectives, toward which end Sistine is more valuable. The conquered cities I treat as more or less of a writeoff production wise at least until the war ends, and am usually building workers from as population control. When I build a new city, it's going to have a cathedral before the happiness becomes a problem, since I almost always have 5+ luxuries and value marketplaces highly.

Quote:
Smith's is not so important for me, i usually am to busy building units and stuff to bother building any more economy than marketplaces.
Play huge and do both . I always find myself heavily reliant on banks to pay the upkeep on my armed forces and keep a decent cash flow coming in.
__________________
"They say if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish...then he has to get a fishing license. But he doesn't have any money, so he has to get a job and enter the social security system. And he has to file taxes, and you're gonna audit the poor son of a ***** because he's not really good at math. You pull the IRS van up to his house and take everything. You take his velvet Elvis and his toothbrush and his penis pump and that all goes up for auction with the burden of proof on you because you forgot to carry the 1. All because you wanted to eat a fish, and you couldn't even cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame."
- Doug Stanhope
Solomwi is offline  
Old October 26, 2003, 18:09   #29
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Ya know I actually had to read this whole thread twice through before the inherent problem I had in answering the query became clear.

Isn't the question, as posed, sort of misleading? I don't mean that in a bad way TM... I just mean that asking about the relative value of GWs in a strategic vacuum doesn't really make sense.

Ranking their relative value will become clear in any given game as you approach the point where you can build them.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old November 4, 2003, 21:18   #30
MysteryMan
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 10:14
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Play huge and do both . I always find myself heavily reliant on banks to pay the upkeep on my armed forces and keep a decent cash flow coming in.
How can one afford a huge standing army without banks? if you don't build the banks, you have to use the army right away or it will deplete your treasury. Being forced to use your army right away takes a LARGE chunk of the strategic value out of having an army.
MysteryMan is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:14.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team