Turns 2141-2160 - Page 2

johndmuller · October 24, 2003, 05:40

Formers at Sealurk:
-LandFormer @ (52,58); recommend Forest, then (Sensor or Mine @ (53,59))
-SeaFormer @ (51,55); recommend goto (49,59) or (49,57) and do Kelp/TidalH or send on long voyage to Calico - (54,42) for same stuff

Formers near Casablanca:
-Tripoli LandFormer at (55,73): Change to Forest
-Casablanca LandFormer at (55,73): Forest (and move Alex's crawler there if it finishes, as it did when I did it (and made the switch as above) on my comp)
-SeaFormer at (56,74) - goto (56,78) and Kelp/TidalH

Former at Pamplona (47,57): Why not a Sensor there (that should be the worked tile too (to get more energy), then to (46,56) &/or (47,55) for Solars then Nuts; at some point a Mine/Road at (48,58)

Former at Atlantis (44,54): goto () for another Forest, this time with Sensor

BootyBoats at Alex and Rita: I'd leave them hanging around those places until we figure out what we need in that department out west; meanwhile they can service 'Rita, Alex (I think its crawler should ultimately, but not necessarily right now (see above), go to (59,75), and Casablanca

Tripoli: Is the expensive cruiser probeship really worth the extra time it takes to build?

HMB: Rush RecComm? (costs as little as 18 if we put the doc to work @(41,65) now in anticipation)

Alex: Rush RecComm? (costs as little as 20 if we move crawler as above and work (56,72) & (60,70) now in anticipation) In any case lets not keep producing all those nuts if we aren't going to rush the RecComm

Atlantis: Consider whether it is better to continue as is (and use doctor in 2 turns) or switch production to (44,54) - mins versus nuts, not much difference IMhO as efficiency eats the extra energy (so long as the doctor is remembered in advance if we go that way)

In General, I think we need to build RecComms everywhere before any more bases so we can deal with the drones without choking the small bases. That means new starts at Pamplona, Casablanca and Calico, in addition to where they are pending. Even with that we are still dicey. Is IntelInteg(NonLethal) on the horizon anywhere?

Planned will obviously make the drone situation no better - and perhaps worse. The info we got from that effed up version of the turn last 'year' with Planned, may not be accurate due to the effed up aspect, but a trial switch to it in this turn still seems not too bad (doesn't really hurt Tripoli that badly). It does cost money, however, and that will crimp our style a little as far as rushing those two RecComms goes (although that too is not so bad due to the improved industry rating. I'm thinking a tentative 'yes' for planned - although we need to look again at all the bases watching out for new pop growth maybe leading to additional drones (didn't see any new additional problems there either in a quick survey).

Is any diplomacy happening at the moment?

Flubber · October 24, 2003, 12:22

Quote:

Originally posted by johndmuller
Is any diplomacy happening at the moment?

Not really-- nobody has contacted me about anything lately except for the HIve with that offer to get them the PEG ( which no one likes) --- I am planning to take a serious look at everything today and start negotiating with everyone for pretty much everything-- I will poll here on any specific trades--

One problem is that the drones NEVER seem to answer me-- I have emailed and PMed buster about 3 times to let him know that we already had what he was offering but he has not given me so much as a hello back-- I will try again.

Cycon -- ugg- nuff said

That leaves the PUT and Hive to make futher contact-- I'll let you know how it goes

Makahlua · October 24, 2003, 18:26

BB, were you still in that test of Planned when you were figuring the rush costs @ Alex and HMB? All I seem to get is 28 and 36 for those two (went ahead and rushed HMB for 28)

Santiago only got another sonar pod

Revenge got 75 PoE, so that solves the switch to planned problem (Damn I shoulda done that first *sigh*) Moving west they see another pod by Calico so I'd like to rush that former before popping - but that also means we need a decision on moving to planned first so I don't 'waste' anymore PoE

Shall I send the Santiago the long way around Bones Island to Dock @ Atlantis or just straight into Calico?

Mid-turn 2 on it's way by email

johndmuller · October 24, 2003, 19:02

Cap'n Maki:

I was not in planned, but I was giving you the minimum amounts necessary to complete the RecComms (I said 'as little as'); IIRC, under planned, Liars was already overcompleted and Alex required only about 12 P's of E, plus or minus (again minimum amount). Of course, if you've already committed to those rushes (at what is probably the maximum possible amount), they would both be overcompleted in Planned, or perhaps even very overcompleted (which translates into a fair number of wasted P's of E, as you are no doubt aware

. Whether it is better to go ahead to planned anyway (bite the bullet on the wasted P's of E, say a few mea culpas, and move on), if it is nevertheless still a profit-making switch (and I would imagine that it looks just as good prospectively as it did before), or be a macho pirate and save face by pretending you didn't want to switch SE's this turn anyway, I will leave up to you. (you could always edit your post (and mine) to remove some of this conversation and just say that you got fewer P's of E from the Pod

; of course, you would have to 'forget' to post the end-turn save too). Anyway, do whatever you think seems best.

I assume you realize that you need to wait til next turn before popping if you rush the current build on this turn. Also, the former can't do anything until you get the BootyBoat there, so rushing is not beneficial in that department if the boat is still on the way.

Googlie · October 24, 2003, 20:54

And make sure that after any overpaid rushed facilities there is something in the build queue to take advantage of the up to 10 overpaid minerals

(This is one case where stockpile energy doesn't do any good, as only the base's stockpile energy production gets added - and after units anyway, not after facs)

G.

Makahlua · October 25, 2003, 02:33

Bit the bullet and moved us to planned, rushed RecCom @ Alex for 28, queued up a coulp of supply crawlers to take advantage of the overpay's rollover - woke up one of the BootyBoats to head to LL and pick up that crawler. Start thinking about the best place to build the PEG, maybe these surplus crawlers can be a start on it

Googlie · October 25, 2003, 19:40

*** gentle nudge ***

The 48 hour time limit has expired

Will the turn be posted shortly, or is an extension being sought?

Googlie

johndmuller · October 25, 2003, 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Googlie
And make sure that after any overpaid rushed facilities there is something in the build queue to take advantage of the up to 10 overpaid minerals

(This is one case where stockpile energy doesn't do any good, as only the base's stockpile energy production gets added - and after units anyway, not after facs)

G.

Am I missing something here? I thought that with facilities there was like an implicit Stockpile Energy in there if the queue was empty when the fac finishes...and...if there is something in the queue (besides Stockpile Energy) when a fac is completed, the benefits of the bug are forfeited. Stockpile Energy after units was the element we had an extra round of discussion about earlier in the game, but that is not in question here, as we are talking about facilities.

It seems to me that putting something into the queue after a facility is the bad thing to do, given the rules that we are using, not the good thing, but maybe there is something I am misunderstanding.

As for the Carryforwards, to the best of my knowledge, it works like this: Any mins paid into the bank for rushing things beyond the 10 that can be carried forward (or less, if the base's min production is itsellf less than 10). In other words, as you know, the game does not readily let you pay more than the minimum needed to finish the build plus the bases own mineral production; sometimes this is more that minimiu+10 and sometimes less, depending on whether or not the base is producing more than 10 mins. Even though it is willing to easily let you pay more than the minimum+10 (if the base production is > 10), you will nevertheless only carryforward at most the 10, no matter how much you pay.

On the high side, ff you go out of your way to pay in more than the minimum+baseproduction, by requesting a 'partial payment' and entering a larger number than suggested for the complete build (or by switching SE settings when the max had already been paid in under the old settings), then those red boxes may appear, indicating that you have already completely paid for the build (and more), with just the 'accumulated' mins (including any you may have bought), that the current production of the base is unnecessary. In this situation, the same rules for carryforward apply AFAIK; namely, that you will get the max of 10 or the bases mineral production.

I think that the AI may be allowed to keep the full excess as a carryforward, at least that is the way it looks to me if I watch the AI do things like change from building an SP to a cheap unit or fac and still seem to have a good grubstake for the next build carriedforward (i.e. sometimes very much more than 10, the bases production, their sum, or any other reasonable explanation other than keeping the excess carryforward in the bank.

As far as utilizing the carryforward goes, I didn't think there was any way you could lose the up-to-10 mins, no matter what was or wasn't in the queue - if there is something in there, it will show up with the carryforward already accumulated in its build box; if there was nothing in there when the prior build finished, when you start off a new build, the carryforward will appear in the build box as already accumulated exactly the same as if that item was in the queue already.

Anyway, that's how I thought it works; am I missing something? Is there some special case in effect when you overpay in the wake of an SE change that lets you carryforward more than would otherwise be the case; has the Twilight Zone come along and changed the 'way things work' here?

Hercules · October 25, 2003, 20:34

I received an end turn, 2143, from Cap'n Maki. I assumed it had been forwarded.

Has it not, if not it seems to me to be an oversight.

If Maki doesn't weigh in soon then I guess we'll will play the end turn

Googlie · October 25, 2003, 23:49

Re Carry Forwards:

Hmm - it's some time since I ran a scenario test on this (and even longer since it was discussed in the forums)

What I thought happens is:

The rush cost is the complete cost to finish the unit or facility regardless of the minerals production of the base. That brings up the "0" as "turns to complete" in the filled production box.

The rush can be to "1 turn to complete" by deducting from the full rush cost the energy equivalent of the minerals being produced (ie less 2 x the mins of the base)

If more than that is paid, the first ten minerals of that base (fewer if fewer minerals are being produced) are then credited to the next build in the queue. If stockpile energy is in the queue after a unit is completed, then the energy credits for that turn are credited. (using the "stockpile energy" value from the Build Options box, and not 2 x the minerals) If a facility or a Special Project is completed, with stockpile energy in the Q, then there is no credit that same turn, unless overpayment has been made (see below).

If more than the full rush cost is being paid, then up to ten minerals value can be overpaid and these are credited to the next build in the Q

(ie if, say, the base is producing 7 minerals and the rush cost for completion is, say, 50 credits, and the stockpile energy value is, say, 10 credits, then:

to complete in 1 turn, pay 36 credits {50 - [7 x 2]} - no carry forward. If a unit is rushed, and stockpile energy is in the Q then 10 credits are credited that same turn. If a facility, then 0 credits credited. If a unit or facility is in the build Q, then it has 0 minerals credits against the next build

To complete in 0 turns, pay the full 50. If stockpile energy is in the Q, and regardless of whether a unit or facility or SP was being rushed, then the energy credits of 10 are credited that turn (ie, 14 have been paid more than needed, but only ten are credited)

If a unit or facility is in the build Q, then it has 7 minerals credits against the next build (ie as the minerals value for that current turn has been paid by way of energy credits for the rush, then the full minerals value (<10) is credited to the next item being built

If 56 credits are paid to rush, then the item is completed (costs 36 to the "1 turn to complete", remember) and 20 credits are converted to their minerals equivalent, thus starting the next unit or facxility with ten minerals in the production box. If "stockpile energy" is in the Q, then again, only 10 are credited, and 10 are forfeited.

I'll run some scenarios again in the next couple of days or so to verify this, but this is certainly my understanding of the old discussions and explanations by such as MoSe and Bingman

And I do believe that the AI gets the benefit of all credits and minerals. in some of my "switch" games (where I open the scenario editor after 100 and 200 years and change control to the weakest faction at that time) I get all sorts of unexpected advantages (eg at transcend I start with paying 40 for SE changes, but after switching I pay only 24, as the AI plays on Librarian level. And I'm sure I could change SE settings for a better +Industry rating and have 30 or 30 red minerals complete the next unit as well in 1 turn.

G.

johndmuller · October 27, 2003, 04:04

I don't know anything special about the stockpile energy bug (just things I've read and that you seem to get more energy than you would expect when you finish a facility build (assuming transcend and nothing or Stockpile in the queue)), but I do think I know what I am talking about viz-a-viz carryforwards and excess payments.

In short, a human player can carryforward no more than the lesser of 10 mins or the bases actual min production into the following turns build, and this is independent of what you have or don't have in the queue, stockpile energy or not.

If the base is producing exactly 10 mins, when you push the hurry button, the cost shown to complete the build will generate a carryforward of 10 mins into the next turn's build, but if the base is producing more than 10 mins, the proposal by the hurry button is in fact more than enough to pay for those 10 mins carriedforward and the rest will be wasted.

If there are more than enough already accumulated (either naturally, or through excess payments or some kind of cost change like switching builds, switching SE settings, or getting a new reactor) mins to finish the build without needing any of the current production, the game will put up those red boxes in the build frame and that means that those excess accumulated mins will be lost, as well as any production over 10 mins.

Makahlua · October 29, 2003, 22:47

Just opened the new turn and Roze rang us up - trying to bluff for Gene Splicing - should I call her on it?

Hercules · October 29, 2003, 22:59

Yeah that happened to me as well. I suspect we need feedback and discussion

Hercules · October 30, 2003, 00:00

OK some feedback. First question Maki at what stage have you saved turn 2144.
I tried to save but couldn't until I made a decision. When I revisited the saved turn it didn't return to the opening screen.

If you have done what I have done does that mean the decision is already made.

Alternatively, we could state the position as you have done and let the other captains debate and we stay out of it. Then one of the others, who hasn't as yet opened the turn could play it according to the decision, save it and send the new save to you.

Thirdly, Whatever happens, cancel the action of the transport, under the sea former, near 'Rita until you've considered travel plans for it, as the new crawler is built at Rita and will need taken somewhere.

Fourthly, where did the creche come from at Tripoli, I thought we were building a party boat or cruiser probe.?

johndmuller · October 30, 2003, 04:38

Well I haven't opened the original turn yet if you need a clean one. If you only want my opinion, first of all, I'm not sure exactly what the situation is - I assume that she is asking for GS, but IIRC, that comes in several flavors, the one being where she asks for it with a bunch of alternatives including various counter-offers, like she gives us money, or another tech or maybe we tell her she is no longer significant - in this case, I think there is no particular problem with asking for the trade or whatever that she won't give us and then going with the 'no trade, no tech' response on the followup question. Sometimes they flat out demand the techs 'I will have it and I will have it now!' - in that case, they are most likelly spoiling for a Vendetta, especially if we demur. In the 1st case, I would go with the counter-offer, asking either for the tech in return or the money, whatever seems appropriate to you in case she accepts it; in the 2nd case, I would blow her off rather than pay her off; I don't think she has the navy to go after us with (but we could check that out too from a previous turn).

Logistically, I'm going to be a bit busy in the near future, but I'll try to check in periodically in case you need my virgin turn to play from.

Hercules · October 30, 2003, 08:36

Just received message from Googlie on a query:
Googlie quote

Quote:

I would say that this case is similr to the others that I ruled on.

(Essentially, to put AI negotiations on a similar footing to human player negotiations, I ruled that non-official players
could open the turn and then contact the AI to see whether they could treaty, od buy and sell techs, etc)

In this case the turn has opened with Roze contacting PEACE and asking for a tech.

there are 3 possibilities:

1) give the tech.

2) ignore her, and close the diplo box.

3) tell her to get lost in which case she declares vendetta

I think it is a fair tactic to explore what her responses might be, as one would do between human players. The
consequences differ, and I don't think it's "playing ahead" to see what Roze would do in response to a particular reply
to her request:

1) > She stays on-line, and further negotiations can occur

2) > She too hangs up and then refuses to answer your calls for several turns

3) > She declares vendetta

So I don't think you need to stay out of the debate at all, knowing the consequences of each response - in fact, air
them for general discussion.

Hercules · October 30, 2003, 08:59

Well I'll tell you what I found.
Roze is seething to start with.

Quote I will not allow you....... I do so hope violence ..........

If we refuse to send over Gene Splicing,
"with Silence enough of your veiled threats......"

She decalres Vendetta.

If we send Gene Splicing she then asks for Ethical Calculus.

If we refuse that she declares vendetta,

If we we send it(Ethic Calc) over she says how wise we are. Comm link can close and we are still at truce, (she is not interested in treaty).

If at the start we simply close the comm link and not respond she remains at truce but refuses further contact.

Hercules · October 30, 2003, 09:07

It seems to me at this moment the one thing we don't want with Roze is vendetta, especially if a little later Miriam joins in as PACT sister.(though she doesn't immediately above).

There are only two ways to not get vendetta as far as I can see.

Close Comm link
Trade two techs (and possibly those techs being trade onwards to Cycon, though they (Cycon) could get them from PUT.
Would the second course of action secure us better relations with Roze in the short term or just show weakness.

Makahlua · October 30, 2003, 12:23

I just left the game open while I slept so I haven't said anytihng further to Roze yet. We have a creche in Tripoli b/c BB suggested the foil was a bit of a big project (but that was before switching) and looking at the base I was thinking something else to suppress drones would be nice.

foolish_icarus · October 30, 2003, 16:58

ignore her. We do want to take her over eventually anyway, right? No reason to keep her happy at the expense of making her stronger.

Makahlua · October 30, 2003, 18:22

OK, so consensus is just tell her to go jump into a mindworm boil - should we start from jdm's virgin turn so we aren't at Vendetta then?

Edit: her forces for conquest are 2 laser rover, 3 laser squads, 2 transoprt foils for those and 2 laser skimships and one probe but that's parked in a base right now. also has 1 sea base and 2 land bases totally w/o garrisons, the Farragut is nex t to one of those

Hercules · October 31, 2003, 01:35

Meant to get back sooner.

Yes my view do not negotiate. Click 'No, Close the channel' This will maintan the truce situation in the meanwhile.

Ask Foolish or JDM to play virgin turn and for them to play just that opening moveie close the comm link, don't answer. if Foolish or other person new to this , save the turn as something like 2144 Rozecomm.sav. Zip it and forward to Maki who will play the rest as the official turn player.

Maki remember to cancel the transport's moves near Rita ( underneath the sea former) until you decide about the crawler at Rita.

Further on if we get lucky ecs wise to bring us past 150 ecs, try trading with Miriam for Non Linear. I think it would be the name your price option but if this becomes a possibility, Save it until we work out which response delivers the tech.

Sail on

Hercules

FlameFlash · October 31, 2003, 10:24

Yes, it sounds as if we should go to war with Roze soon though... perhaps as soon as we can buy Non Linear start producing a military to invade Roze. We wouldn't need too much since Roze sounds fiarly easy as a target.

Everything sounds good thus far though.

Hercules · October 31, 2003, 21:07

Maki, Obviously on Hallowe'en Night, there' nobody around.
Replay the turn, Googlie can verify that nothing ontoward happened.

Makahlua · October 31, 2003, 21:15

I went ahead and started playing from my Vendetta'd save:

Rushed former @ Calico to be diembarked next turn by the booty boat there; PMS Revengesailed further NW along the coast of Bones Isle and is in position to pop either of 2 pods near Calico next turn. PMS Santiago went further back W to loop around the west of Bones and 'meet' the so to speak

Farragut could cruise right into the empty ConShelf 54 this turn, it would destroy the base but hey we are at Vendetta

However the KingLear is alongside one of Roze's laser/synth skimships with one move left

We have a free crawler and available BootyBoat @ 'Rita; also two free 'formers @ Casablanca

Comments?

Hercules · October 31, 2003, 21:52

I didn't get the feeling there was a consensus for vendetta with Roze at this time. Later yes but not just now.
However it seems you have taken the turn further on. Do not take the empty base.
I this moment I haven't opened the mid turn save yet., so can't comment further.

Hercules · November 1, 2003, 09:29

First don't invade Conshelf57.

Move the Farragut towards the pods at 32,27 direction

Move the King Lear but I fear Roze may chase and confront, now we are at vendetta.

No easy options with Santiago, there tends to be goodies in that cluster but also and IOD and we don't have trance.

Change worker at HMB to the kelp soalr tile at 42, 68, it will speed new citizen

Pop pod at Casablanca, suggest build Rec Com.

Move formers to 57,75

Suggest build Foil Probe at Alexandra and Foil probe at Rita.

At Rita transport crawler to Bird Island and the forest tile.

At LL with Rec Com built move worker to mine at 44,70 or simply to forest tile It a case of extra min or exta energy.

FlameFlash · November 1, 2003, 14:45

just make sure to stop the vendetta before sending out!

Makahlua · November 1, 2003, 22:35

End 2144 hititng your mailboxes shortly - couple of minor move I forgot but will do before sending on

FlameFlash · November 2, 2003, 10:51

And we're not at war with Roze, right?