How are the research costs determined?

Minute Mirage · October 10, 2003, 16:01

Does anyone know how the research costs for technologies are determined? I searched a bit for this but I didn't find anything conclusive. This is the impression I currently have on the matter:
[list=1][*]The cost is dependant on the number of technologies researched (the more technologies = the higher the cost).[*]A faction's position in the tech race affects the cost. That is, if you have more techs than the others the cost is higher and vice versa.[*]The cost depends on the map size (smaller map, lower costs).[*]Research penalties (Believers, Drones) may increase the cost. I don't if this applies inversely to research bonuses.[*]The difficulty level may affect the cost.[*]It is often said that techs received while researching a tech don't affect the cost of the currently researched technology. However, I've found that this is not always the case.[/list=1]

Am I on the right tracks here? Has an actual formula been found?

Jamski · October 10, 2003, 18:29

You need to ask Kody or Vel for formulas my friend.

-Jam

Kody · October 10, 2003, 19:03

hrmm I still haven't figured it out completely, but I've figured out quite a few of the quirks.

Kody · October 10, 2003, 19:40

The most important thing I've learnt from my tech cost research.

DON'T TRADE before you've researched you first tech. (Drones, and Believers might consider it as their first tech takes a long time)

Even it if means getting ecology and getting a former earlier the cost is often too high. This doesn't apply to the university as their free tech counts as a researched tech (If I remember correctly, can't be bothered confirming today).

I've noticed that before you research your first tech, techs costs aren't anchored. That means if you start researching your first tech and you trade with your partner before you research your first tech. The cost of the tech immediately jumps and the jump is usually double if not more.

If you had however waited until you researched your first tech before trading then you would have gotten 2 techs in the time it took to research the one.

Getting 2 techs instead of 1 during very early game is definately a serious advantage you can't deny yourself.

Datajack Franit · October 10, 2003, 20:19

What if I didn't trade while I had a chance and now nobody wants my obsolete tech

Tech trading is way too important in the early stages, because of crucial Secret Projects such as the Human Genome and the Weather Paradigm, which are way too massive to let Believers and Drones seize them

Kody · October 10, 2003, 20:25

The only time you meet another faction before you've researched your first tech is if the random map generator put you right next to each other. I assumed that in most cases you have comm links because you're playing a team game.

It's unlikely that tech will become obsolete within the first 6-7 turns of the game it takes to research it. It's even more unlikely that you'll meet another faction who isn't a pact team mate in the first 6 or 7 turns.

Like I said you don't want to trade techs before researching your first tech, unless you're the drones or the believers who have delayed tech research.

gwillybj · October 10, 2003, 21:48

The following is from page 23 of the Prima guide. I'm nearly certain there is already a thread here that fully "corrects" the formula, including specifics about how to calculate WORLDSIZE for custom map sizes. Conspicuously absent here is any mention of the adjustment by the SE Research value. This will get you started, though.

Quote:

The cost of technology discoveries is determined by a complex formula (to say the least). The following is a simplification of that formula, but it still gives a good approximation of how many research points are required for your next Tech discovery. In particular, it assumes that you have discovered at least half as many Techs as the leading player.

First, assign a value to your difficulty level: 0 = Citizen, 5 = Transcend. Call it DIFF.

TECHS = the number of Techs you've already discovered.

MOSTTECHS = the greatest number of Techs already discovered by any one player.

TURNS = the number of turns that have already passed.

Research cost = [11 + (DIFF*4) + ((TECHS*6)/5) - (TURNS/8) - (MOSTTECHS/5) ] * TECHS * WORLDSIZE

WORLDSIZE. If you are playing on a smaller world, multiply the result by 0.6 (Tiny world) or 0.8 (Small world). If playing on a larger world, multiply the result by 1.1 (Large world) or 1.6 (Huge world).

If you've created a custom size for your world, use the WORLDSIZE modifiers (listed in the previous paragraph) to estimate your custom WORLDSIZE modifier.

If Tech Stagnation is selected, divide TURNS by 12 (rather than by 8) and multiply the final result by 1.5.

Early in the game, if your faction is weak on Research (e.g., the Believers), the final result can be increased by as much as 15%. Late in the game, this increase is closer to 2%. Similarly, factions that are strong on Research (e.g., the University) can decrease research costs by 15% to 2%.

Your final result is the number of research points required for your next discovery.

The result can range anywhere from about 65 (at Citizen difficulty level, on a Tiny map, at the very beginning of the game, with a research-savvy faction) to about 9000 (at Transcend difficulty level, on a Huge world, after you've discovered more than 70 Techs). If Tech Stagnation is selected, it can take over 13,000 research points to discover your next Tech!

As you might be able to see, the greatest factor is how many Techs you yourself have discovered. In fact, you can quickly estimate your next research cost by squaring the number of your current Techs, and then adding a bit. (Be sure to adjust the result based on WORLDSIZE and Tech Stagnation.)

gwillybj · October 10, 2003, 22:05

What I've seen in-game and read in various places:

Q1. The cost is dependant on the number of technologies researched (the more technologies = the higher the cost).
A1. True.

Q2. A faction's position in the tech race affects the cost. That is, if you have more techs than the others the cost is higher and vice versa.
A2. Yes and No. It is more of a factor if you are way ahead or way behind.

Q3. The cost depends on the map size (smaller map, lower costs).
A3. True.

Q4. Research penalties (Believers, Drones) may increase the cost. I don't if this applies inversely to research bonuses.
A4. Yes and Yes. Research rate is slowed 10% for each -Research, and speeded 10% for each +Research.

Q5. The difficulty level may affect the cost.
A5. Yes.

Q6. It is often said that techs received while researching a tech don't affect the cost of the currently researched technology. However, I've found that this is not always the case.
A6. I have never agreed with that claim. In every one of my SP games, Tech Cost is calculated on-the-fly and adjusted immediately if TECHS or MOSTTECHS changes.

Minute Mirage · October 11, 2003, 06:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
The most important thing I've learnt from my tech cost research.

DON'T TRADE before you've researched you first tech. (Drones, and Believers might consider it as their first tech takes a long time)

Even it if means getting ecology and getting a former earlier the cost is often too high. This doesn't apply to the university as their free tech counts as a researched tech (If I remember correctly, can't be bothered confirming today).

I've noticed that before you research your first tech, techs costs aren't anchored. That means if you start researching your first tech and you trade with your partner before you research your first tech. The cost of the tech immediately jumps and the jump is usually double if not more.

If you had however waited until you researched your first tech before trading then you would have gotten 2 techs in the time it took to research the one.

I have experienced this myself: I was researching my first tech and got a trade for some other techs. As a result, the cost of my first tech just about tripled.

Quote:

Originally posted by gwillybj
The following is from page 23 of the Prima guide. I'm nearly certain there is already a thread here that fully "corrects" the formula, including specifics about how to calculate WORLDSIZE for custom map sizes. Conspicuously absent here is any mention of the adjustment by the SE Research value. This will get you started, though.

Thanks, that can prove really helpful. However, I haven't been able to located the thread you mentioned. If someone could post a link to it, I would be very grateful.

jtsisyoda · October 11, 2003, 11:27

Quote:

Q4. Research penalties (Believers, Drones) may increase the cost. I don't if this applies inversely to research bonuses.
A4. Yes and Yes. Research rate is slowed 10% for each -Research, and speeded 10% for each +Research.

The tech points that you accumulate, not the tech cost, are what the research rate effects. The result is more or less the same, though. To see for yourself, play Drones, Uni, etc., go to the F3 screen, click "Bases" on the lower left corner, and you'll see two numbers for each city: the base tech points gained per turn, and the net points after your research bonus/penalty.

Minute Mirage · October 11, 2003, 11:33

Quote:

Originally posted by jtsisyoda

The tech points that you accumulate, not the tech cost, are what the research rate effects. The result is more or less the same, though. To see for yourself, play Drones, Uni, etc., go to the F3 screen, click "Bases" on the lower left corner, and you'll see two numbers for each city: the base tech points gained per turn, and the net points after your research bonus/penalty.

I am aware of this. However, I do remember someone posting about Miriam's research costs for the early techs and noticing they were higher than they were supposed to be. I myself don't have researched this matter, which why I asked others if this is truly the case.

gwillybj · October 12, 2003, 00:17

oops

and that was posted early in the night (for me) - I'm usually not in here before 2am or so

Curiosity · October 12, 2003, 07:30

IIRC, for factions with a research penalty, the research cost is doubled for the first two techs, increased by 1/2 for the third, 1/3 for the fourth, 1/4 for the fifth, etc.

But that's based on a two-year-old memory, so check it up.

Minute Mirage · October 15, 2003, 18:05

It seems that the search works only up to one year back, so I had to search the older threads by hand. I didn't find any conclusive formula, but in case someone else is interested, these threads contain some discussion concerning the topic:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=20050
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=20745
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=7174
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=7185
http://www.planetacol.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000155.html
http://www.planetacol.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000451.html