PEACE-CyCon war: strategic planning office

Maniac · October 10, 2003, 17:05

It seems we'll have to go to war with PEACE much sooner than expected. Therefore I thought this deserved a seperate thread, instead of continuing the discussion in the PEACE diplomatic exchanges thread.

To summarize, it seems we will have the possibility to get Doc:Ini next year already and research NonlMath the year after.

This allows (or rather forces if we take Doc:Ini without repayment) us to go to war much sooner. I believe we should start planning our base production more detailed for the next few turns to anticipate a war.

Let me give my opinion:

Binary Bastion, Mythical Matrix and Zetaris are just new bases. I doubt they can add anything to the war effort, so I would suggest they just continue their current production schedule.

DBTSverse Portal currently has a drone, so we should still build a rec commons next. We also won't be able to use the DBTSverse crawler for hurry purposes as it needs to harvest the nutrient square near Portal to prevent starvation.

This leaves five bases left for war production...

Aurora is currently building a rec commons and will grow in four turns. I guess we could cease rec commons production and start war production instead but then we would waste a worker. We could rush the rec commons, but do we have sufficient funds for that?

After the MCC is completed in Logic Loop, I would suggest we start on supply crawlers or marine impact squads 4~-1-1.

For Apolyton Prime, though I voted on formers previously, I would want to change my vote now because of the urgent war situation. How about building crawlers or impact marines there too?

Then there's Boolean Bay. I would suggest we build a cruiser transport after the crawler is finished.

Pi Square... IIRC the previous plan was a 1-2-8. Does that still count now we might have impact guns soon?

Edit: It seems Corellion was way ahead of me.

Corellion · October 10, 2003, 17:35

Seeing as how the situation is unfolding so quickly, it seems to be time to establish a thread to deal with the matter of the upcoming war. Below is a link to the PEACE Diplomatic Exchanges thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=90505

The current issue is with the offer of Doctrine: Initiative.

We are only one turn away from completing research of Doctrine: Initiative ourselves, and PEACE has graciously sent it to us pre-accepted. This means we now have a choice as to our next course of action. These can be broken down into three groups: accept the tech and give them something in return, accept the tech and don't give them something in return, or don't accept the tech. The results and costs of the first and last option are obvious, so I shall devote my time to discussion of the second.

If we were to accept their gracious offer and not give them anything, they will realise immediately what's going on. Fortunately, we will acquire Doctrine: Initiative, and will have only one turn to go until the research of either Nonlinear Mathematics or High Energy Chemistry. That means that this upcoming turn will afford us the opportunity to immediately begin cruiser construction, and to switch that production to our new 4-2-6 ships, which I propose we dub "Anti-Piracy Subroutines", or some variant if that's too long, next turn. It will also allow us to, if we so choose, complete the MCC by next turn as well. We can then crawler-rush as many ships as possible, and attack the relatively defenseless PEACE. If we are forced to choose High Energy Chemistry, it will be a much more difficult war, however we will still have the advantage, as they are still relatively weak.

We must make this decision soon, as the turn is coming upon us. What should we do, and should war be immediate, or later?

Alright, here is a copy of the post in the other thread. We'll use this one from now on (it has a better title).

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 17:40

This plan gives us the MCC at the same time as our first sea unit (the first time we will need it), gives us an impact cruiser in 2144, and means that by 2152 we have 2 impact cruisers, a synthmetal cruiser transport, 2 amphibious impact squads and 2 amphibious impact rovers, all in the same base as the transport.

Start position (2140):

Will have next researched tech in 2 turns.
Pi Square produces at 5 min per turn, has 5 in hand already, and is producing a crawler (24).
Logic Loop produces at 12 mpt, has 159 in hand already and is producing the Virtual World (240).
Apolyton Prime produces at 7 mpt, has 1 in hand already and is producing a former (16).
Aurora produces at 5 mpt, has 3 in hand already and is producing a Rec Commons (32).
Pacted with PEACE.

During 2141:
We accept Doc Ini from PEACE next turn (2141) and begin on Non Math. Apolyton Prime changes production to a 0-1-1 probe defence.

Position at end 2141:

Will have Non Math in 1 turn.
PS – 5mpt – 10 – crawler (24).
LL – 12mpt – 171 – VW (240).
AP – 7mpt – 8 – probe defence (16).
Aurora – 5mpt – 8 – RC (32).
Pacted with PEACE.

During 2142:
We research Non Math, and begin to research next tech (HEC?). Pi Square production is changed to a 4-1-6 impact cruiser (32, 48 prototype) at a cost of 3 minerals. A crawler is used at Pi Square, and another at Logic Loop.

Position at end 2142:

PS – 5 – 36 – impact cruiser (48).
LL – 12 – 207 – VW (240).
AP – 7 – 15 – probe defense (16).
Aurora – 5 – 13 – RC (32).
Maybe Pacted, if we can hold it.

During 2143:
We pay for 2 extra mins in Pi Square and 9 extra mins in Logic Loop. We switch Logic Loop production to the MCC. Apolyton Prime build probe defence that sets off for Aurora, production is set to a 4~-1-1 amphibious impact squad (24) which will be build after the impact cruiser, so will not need to be prototyped.

Position at end 2142:

PS – 5 – 43 – impact cruiser (48).
LL – 12 – 228 – MCC (240).
AP – 7 – 6 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 5 – 18 – RC (32).
I'm guessing treaty by now.

During 2144:
Impact cruiser is built in Pi Square, which will continue to build another impact cruiser. Logic Loop builds the MCC, build set to 4~-1-2 (32). Aurora rushes Rec Commons 11 minerals and sets production to an unarmoured cruiser transport.

Position at end 2144:

PS – 5 – 0 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 0 – impact rover (32).
AP – 7 – 13 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 5 – 0 – cruiser transport (32).
War with PEACE, with an impact cruiser and the MCC built.

During 2145:
Aurora grows. Gains 1 min and 1 nut per turn (IIRC).

Position at end 2145:

PS – 5 – 5 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 12 – impact rover (32).
AP – 7 – 20 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 6 – 6 – cruiser transport (32).

During 2146:
Apolyton Prime builds impact squad, which heads off to Aurora. Continues to build another one.

Position at end 2146:

PS – 5 – 10 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 24 – impact rover (32).
AP – 7 – 3 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 6 – 12 – cruiser transport (32).

During 2147:
Logic Loop builds impact rover, which heads off to Aurora. Continues to build another one.

Position at end 2147:

PS – 5 – 15 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 0 – impact rover (32).
AP – 7 – 10 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 6 – 18 – cruiser transport (32).

Position at end 2148:

PS – 5 – 20 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 12 – impact rover (32).
AP – 7 – 17 – impact squad (24).
Aurora – 6 – 24 – cruiser transport (32).

During 2149:
Apolyton Prime builds impact squad, which heads off to Aurora.

Position at end 2149:

PS – 5 – 25 – impact cruiser (32).
LL – 12 – 24 – impact rover (32).
Aurora – 6 – 30 – cruiser transport (32).

During 2150:
Logic Loop builds impact rover, which heads off for Aurora. Aurora builds cruiser transport.

Position at end 2150:

PS – 5 – 30 – impact cruiser (32).

During 2151:
Impact cruiser is built in Pi Square. We now have 2 impact cruisers and a cruiser transport filled with 2 amphibious impact squads and 2 amphibious rovers and a probe defense, 8/9 turns after declaring war on PEACE.

Opinions?

Corellion · October 10, 2003, 17:40

If we're going to go to war immediately, may I suggest we take screenshots of all our intelligence on peace and cancel the pact this turn, followed by promptly erasing all our old turns from the turn-tracking threads (they probably still have copies, but there's always the chance, and it can't hurt). That way, they can't get any information on what to prepare for.

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 17:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Then there's Boolean Bay. I would suggest we build a cruiser transport after the crawler is finished..

Boolean bay will have a production of 1 and needs a Rec Commons to grow above size 1. It cannot give anything of value to the war effort.

I have done a detailed plan below of what I think we should do.

Gives us a protected cruiser transport, filled with attacking troups, and 2 impact cruisers, using the 4 bases that can give to the effort, as you identified.

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 17:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Corellion
If we're going to go to war immediately, may I suggest we take screenshots of all our intelligence on peace and cancel the pact this turn, followed by promptly erasing all our old turns from the turn-tracking threads (they probably still have copies, but there's always the chance, and it can't hurt).

I'd say keep the pact as long as possible. They'll build up defenses when we cancel it. With my plan, we will have Pact for another couple of years, and an impact cruiser in 4, before they could build any synth defenses

And yes, lets delete all our old turns. Sounds like a good idea

Maniac · October 10, 2003, 19:12

Drogue, I haven't reviewed your plan very detailed, but it looks good.

A few questions though:

Shouldn't we better switch the current AP former production to something else? Formers have become low priority recently IMHO.

Shouldn't we build a probe foil/cruiser somewhere or include a 0-1-1 probe defence in the initial cruiser transport task force, so it can infiltrate the PEACE datalinks, a crucial element of any military campaign?

Is it good to gather the task force near Pi Square? AFAIK there isn't a PEACE base within 8 squares of Pi Square. There is Alexandria however within 8 squares of Boolean Bay. If we gathered there, we could start the turn in Boolean Bay, move the transport next to Alexandria with IIRC still 2 movement points left, let the marines empty the base and a possible probe infiltrate the datalinks, take the base, and let the transport move the entire task force safely into Alexandria. If we first gather near Pi Square, we will probably have to spend a turn in the open sea, a very risky tactic...

Is it necessary to spend minerals on building a synthmetal transport instead of an armourless transport? If we take Alexandria as our first base as proposed above, we will probably be able to 'base hop', using our marines to empty the base garrisons, and then always move the transport safely into the base, making armour unnecesary.

You say a crawler is used in Pi Square in MY 2142. Do you mean the crawler on (70.68), or the future DBTSverse Portal one (which I hoped would be used to harvest nutrients)?

Quote:

Boolean bay will have a production of 1 and needs a Rec Commons to grow above size 1. It cannot give anything of value to the war effort.

Oh ok. I thought the single BB worker would be on a forest, because - as you say - we first need a rec commons there before being able to grow, so there isn't much use to putting the worker on that sea nutrient.

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 19:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Shouldn't we better switch the current AP former production to something else? Formers have become low priority recently IMHO.

Possibly. I think having another former to help mineral production could be worth it, and until we have Non Math, there seems like little else to build there IMHO. However a probe team might be good?

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Shouldn't we build a probe foil/cruiser somewhere or include a 0-1-1 probe defence in the initial cruiser transport task force, so it can infiltrate the PEACE datalinks, a crucial element of any military campaign?

Yes. A land based team IMHO, as it's cheaper, and we don't have any free coastal base time available.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Is it good to gather the task force near Pi Square? AFAIK there isn't a PEACE base within 8 squares of Pi Square. There is Alexandria however within 8 squares of Boolean Bay. If we gathered there, we could start the turn in Boolean Bay, move the transport next to Alexandria with IIRC still 2 movement points left, let the marines empty the base and a possible probe infiltrate the datalinks, take the base, and let the transport move the entire task force safely into Alexandria. If we first gather near Pi Square, we will probably have to spend a turn in the open sea, a very risky tactic...

Is there a base that close to Boolean Bay? The one we can't see? How do we know it's Alexandria? We could keep it there, but it would involve more time to get the transport down there. I was thinking of having it flanked by at least one impact cruiser. But yes, that could be a good idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Is it necessary to spend minerals on building a synthmetal transport instead of an armourless transport? If we take Alexandria as our first base as proposed above, we will probably be able to 'base hop', using our marines to empty the base garrisons, and then always move the transport safely into the base, making armour unnecesary.

That is true, so no, we don't need the armour. It was just before I realised that we had extra production time until the troops arrived there. However now there isn't, because of the move, I agree, an armourless transport is better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
You say a crawler is used in Pi Square in MY 2142. Do you mean the crawler on (70.68), or the future DBTSverse Portal one (which I hoped would be used to harvest nutrients)?

Hadn't decided yet, However we have two spare, one moving towards Logic Loop and another just south of Aurora. Whichever we use, it can be replaced. We need to use one there though IMHO. It is worth far more getting the cruiser 5 turns sooner.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh ok. I thought the single BB worker would be on a forest, because - as you say - we first need a rec commons there before being able to grow, so there isn't much use to putting the worker on that sea nutrient.

True, although it was ordered to the nutrient. However I think it should stay put. But we need an RC ASAP there.

Will update due to your ideas. Thanks for that, should be much better now

Maniac · October 10, 2003, 19:53

Quote:

However a probe team might be good?

That seems great to me.

Also, since a 0-1-1 costs as much as a former, it still fits in perfectly with the rest of your plan.

Quote:

Is there a base that close to Boolean Bay? The one we can't see? How do we know it's Alexandria?

The first turn I saw the border marks, I checked the PEACE F4 screen and noticed the base of Alexandria had just been founded.

Quote:

We could keep it there, but it would involve more time to get the transport down there.

In that case the productions of Pi Square and Aurora could always be switched: Aurora builds the transport and Pi Square a second cruiser.

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 20:17

Is now updated. Aurora now builds transport and Pi Square the second cruiser, and the former has been replaced with a probe defense

Corellion · October 10, 2003, 20:25

Indeed, how wonderful.

However, I must still point out that our accepting Doc:Init without trade, switching to Nonlinear Math when they said they don't, and beginning construction of many military units will arouse their suspicions. It will probably be better to cancel the pact so they don't know what's going on.

Besides... I have a suspicion that the University might be researching Nonlinear Mathematics for PEACE, though I'll have to check to make sure (or at least will be when PEACE gives them AppPhys).

Drogue · October 10, 2003, 20:29

Well, even the PUT have to spend time researching. I think we will be safe from that and HEC for at least 10 years after we get it. Add another 5 years building time, and we have 15 years to attack them before they get it. Enough to take a few bases and put them on the back foot IMHO.

It will arouse their suspicions, however we do not want them to start building until we have declared, we want the most up to date information, and they probably don't study that screen every turn. I think after we don't trade, and switch to Non Math it will be blatantly obvious.

However I will poll.

Corellion · October 10, 2003, 20:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Well, even the PUT have to spend time researching. I think we will be safe from that and HEC for at least 10 years after we get it.

Yes, that's fine. When I made that post, I hadn't seen that the PUT was researching Ecological Engineering... I suspected that they were researching something PEACE was going to trade to them (such as AppPhys), and then they would switch to NonMath, which was why PEACE said they didn't really want it anymore.

DeathByTheSword · October 11, 2003, 10:01

i dont think it is a good idea to go and meet PUT they probably arent ready for war...but they are the other research faction. and when we go to war with PEACE it mught be in there interest to declare war on us too...and i dont feel like doing to war with 2 factions....on the other side they have techs we dont have and visa versa (right?) so maybe we can benifit from this and get some new techs that may help in the war effort.

Maniac · October 11, 2003, 10:04

If we contact PUT we can tell them our side of the story and perhaps even offer them some tech, credits or commlink frequency in exchange for their infiltrator info on PEACE. If we don't contact them PEACE is the only one who can negotiate with them, depict us as bad and ask to go to war.

Drogue · October 11, 2003, 14:37

We can't contact them until we meet them anyway, so the point is mute. However if we meet them, I will be very nice to GT/Archaic and hope we can strike up an arrangement. I think PEACE won't like it, but we have more to offer them than PEACE, especially by then, since we will have a couple of PEACE bases IMHO.

Phenix · October 11, 2003, 16:34

Yea, we should be friendly to any other factions we're going to encounter...

One war is more than enough IMHO

Drogue · October 11, 2003, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Phenix
One war is more than enough IMHO

For the moment

Maybe one war at a time

Nubclear · October 12, 2003, 00:56

Once you break the backs of those pirate scums, can you (as the controlling faction) approve me into their forums? Even though you won't use their forums....It's still a nice thing you can do

I'll even give you a recent hit up here in heaven, "101 Ways to Skin a PEACE Parrot" for free!

Aren't I nice?

Phenix · October 12, 2003, 06:24

Our cause is just, we've even got a god on our side

Drogue · October 12, 2003, 08:10

That's a point, do we get to read their forum if we capture them? SInce we have the ability to access their networks (why we have techsteal) we really should, RP wise. What are the rules concerning this? And yes Tassadar, you will be authorised if we do get their forum.

Phenix · October 12, 2003, 09:06

I think it would be very fair and logical to get access to their forum if a faction becomes the equivalent of a submissive AI...

DeathByTheSword · October 12, 2003, 10:09

the turn has just been posted....PEACE is going to be PISSED when they find out...

Maniac · October 12, 2003, 18:59

Seeing the new situation where we don't have NonlMath, may I suggest we temporarily scrap the plan to build land marine units? Instead, as suggested in the "Attention Urgently Needed - New Developments" thread, I would propose to start a probe war. To that end, I would suggest starting production on a Plasmasteel Cruiser Transport in Boolean Bay or Aurora as soon as the current production in one of that bases is finished; and build a 23-8 in Pi Square. I would suggest rushing the production of those units with a crawler nearby. In the other bases I would propose building two 0-1-1 probe defences (to use against sea bases) and 0-1-2 two probe teams (to use against land bases - IIRC land probe teams can't probe from water to land so they have to unload first, making giving them 2 movement points necessary).

Drogue · October 12, 2003, 22:30

See my proposal in the Urgent thread. But yes, that is almost identical

I would like to use only 1 crawler though, since another is going to Logic Loop, and the others are needed IIRC.

Corellion · October 14, 2003, 16:23

On the propaganda side of the upcoming war, I've been trying to put together a rendition of "What would you do with a drunken sailor?". So far, I have the following two verses:

DeathByTheSword in the old town centre
Lock him in a room with a well-armed Maniac

however I'm having difficulty coming up with more verses. Does anybody have any good ideas?

Maniac · October 14, 2003, 16:26

Could you please give the original version in English?

Then I'll see if I can come up with something.

Corellion · October 14, 2003, 16:40

http://www.contemplator.com/folk/sailor.html

I've seen lots of alterations on the lyrics, including

Shave his belly with a rusty razor
and
Put him in bed with the captain's daughter

Essentially anything that fits the pattern.

BTW, the music kicks in after the wave sounds if you wait long enough (it's pretty easy to hear how the lyrics fit in).

Googlie · October 15, 2003, 00:19

I'm not sure if I've posted this tip already - if I have, please forgive

In the interests of fair faction advice-giving .....

A couple of turns ago, to help a faction that was temporarily labour-impaired, I downloaded and posted the various base screens for one of their pactmates, and made the throw-away line "Someone with more graphic skills than I could probably cobble together a pactmate's map from those screens."

It is possible as I've seen it done.

G.

Drogue · October 15, 2003, 08:04

The exact base locations? How would they know even which bits are land and which are sea, that are unexplored? We could try that with out old infilitration of PEACE. It would help greatly with the war effort.