Gamespot's C3C civilization profiles

[ixnay]

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...w_6076654.html

They're doing profiles of the new civilizations added to the game. So far the Byzantines and the Dutch are up.

In Civilization III: Conquests, the Byzantines are considered a seafaring and scientific civilization. They start the game with bronze working and alphabet and are able to build the dromon instead of the standard galley.

Unique Unit: The Dromon


The Byzantine dromon is a powerful warship.

Byzantine dromons are a type of galley with an enhanced offensive capability, as it can let loose a hot stream of "Greek fire." The dromon has lethal sea bombardment. The dromon was the end result of Byzantine ingenuity applied to old Greek ship designs. Powered by rowers, its primary virtue was its versatility--the wide, flat decks could be mounted with a variety of weapons. There were many classes of dromon, from light escort and reconnaissance designs to heavy warships. Dromons often included mini-forts made of wood from which marines could sally forth or fire bows, as well as catapults, rams, ballistae, and later, Greek fire launchers. These dangerous and devastating primitive flamethrowers spelled death to enemies in an age where all ships were made of flammable wood and crew were constantly exposed on the upper decks.

Byzantine dromons are a type of Galley unit which enjoys enhanced offensive capabilities.

The Dromon is a 2/1/3 Galley.

In Civilization III: Conquests, the Dutch are considered to be a seafaring and agricultural civilization. They start the game with pottery and alphabet and build the Swiss mercenaries instead of standard pikeman.

Unique Unit: Swiss Mercenary


Swiss mercenary units possess powerful defensive bonuses.

Mercenaries first came to prominence in Europe in the 14th century, when soldiers from the Hundred Years' War preferred to continue fighting for a living rather than learn peacetime trades. Swiss soldiers in particular enjoyed an especially high reputation for loyalty and professionalism, and several European nations incorporated Swiss mercenary regiments into their armies. The Netherlands, in particular, employed huge numbers of mercenaries, since the strength of the Dutch nation was commerce and wealth. This allowed Dutch princes and stadtholders to pay mercenaries well and regularly, which led to extremely effective fighters. The most famous assignment of Swiss mercenaries is the personal safety of the Pope; a special unit of Swiss soldiers, the Swiss Guard, has pledged to protect the Pope and the Vatican for the last 500 years.

The Dutch Swiss mercenary is an excellent defender that boasts an even better defense strength than the formidable pikeman. A Dutch city must have iron in its strategic resource box to build a Swiss mercenary.

The Swiss Mercenary is a 1/4/1 pikeman.

Also included are pics of the new UUs and the leaders for the Dutch/Byzantines.

[kring]

Good update. Thank you for the links

[History Guy]

Hmmm... Byzantines are scientific and seafaring?!

As for the Dutch, they've got the wrong William of Orange. They mean the chap who fought the Spanish, not the chap who conquered England. However, they illustrated the latter rather than the former.

[OPD]

Originally posted by ixnay
The Swiss Mercenary is a 1/4/1 pikeman.

Thats powerful....
I wonder how many sheild it'll cost? I'm going to guess 50.


edit n/m I see it costs 30 sheilds. That sounds very cheap to me. I think this UU pretty much amounts to being able to build Musketmen a few techs earlier, without the need for saltpeter and at half price!!!

IMO 40 shields would be about right, but then again I haven't played/tester this game....

[Saint Marcus]

The Dutch aren't Commercial? WTF?


I'll mod this game before playing it, that's for sure.

Ubersweet UU though, 1-4-1 for 30 shields is pretty kick ass.

[Myrddin]

Because the English are Seafaring and Commercial..

[Saint Marcus]

the English weren't that commercial. they ought to be industrious (industrial revolution started in England), or better yet, Expansionistic.

[player1]

Originally posted by OPD


Thats powerful....
I wonder how many sheild it'll cost? I'm going to guess 50.


edit n/m I see it costs 30 sheilds. That sounds very cheap to me. I think this UU pretty much amounts to being able to build Musketmen a few techs earlier, without the need for saltpeter and at half price!!!

IMO 40 shields would be about right, but then again I haven't played/tester this game....

Who knows, maybe musketmen would get cheaper in conquests.

[History Guy]

Hmmm...I don't particularly like this... I like the leaderhead background for Theodora with the Pantokrator, but that's about it. (Has anyone else noted that the leaders themselves seem to be of a lesser quality in comparison with the Hittite, Sumerian, Mayan, and Incan leaders?)

The idea of the Byzantines as Seafaring isn't too much of a stretch, I suppose, but it isn't what I would have chosen. Nor would I have suggested Scientific. Religious at least should have been one trait. Commercial the other, perhaps.

The Dutch for Seafaring is to be expected, but not for Agricultural. I can only think that the Firaxians think only of tulips, windmills, and dykes in regards to those guys...

[Inhalaattori]

I think personally that,
Byzantium should be scientific, religious.
England should be industrial, sea -faring.
Carthage should be commercial, sea -faring.

[Stuie]

Obviously everyone has their own opinion of what traits should go with which Civs. Just keep in mind that Firaxis made sure that every combination was represented by at least one Civ - until we see all the combinations it's hard to argue which makes sense and which does not.

And then.... there's always the editor. If you don't like it, mod it.

[Arrian]

1/4/1, 30 shields sounds like a big deal at first (my initial reaction was Wow!), but it's right in line with many other UUs: +1 to a stat, same cost.

-Arrian

[Stuie]

Thinking about it, I usually get Gunpowder so soon after Feudalism that a Pikeman UU seems pretty useless. Then again, if there's a lack of saltpeter I guess it would have some utility.

[Saint Marcus]

Thinking about it, I usually get Gunpowder so soon after Feudalism that a Pikeman UU seems pretty useless.

hardly.

a musketman has 2-4-1 stats, and costs 70. The Swiss Mercenary has 1-4-1 stats and costs only 30!! Same defense, for less than half the cost. Sounds like a bargain to me!

[OPD]

Originally posted by Arrian
1/4/1, 30 shields sounds like a big deal at first (my initial reaction was Wow!), but it's right in line with many other UUs: +1 to a stat, same cost.

-Arrian

I suppose it's kinda like a hopite for the MA. Although in some ways it may not be as good, 33% increase rather than a 50% increase. But then it cost halfs of what the musket costs compared to th hopite which is 2/3 of what a pike costs.

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


hardly.

a musketman has 2-4-1 stats, and costs 70. The Swiss Mercenary has 1-4-1 stats and costs only 30!! Same defense, for less than half the cost. Sounds like a bargain to me!

Musketman costs 60... but still that is overpriced.

[Saint Marcus]

I suppose it's kinda like a hopite for the MA. Although in some ways it may not be as good, 33% increase rather than a 50% increase. But then it cost halfs of what the musket costs compared to th hopite which is 2/3 of what a pike costs.

on the flip side, Hoplites are around for a long time before Pikemen, while Pikemen are only around for a little bit before Musketmen appear.

[OPD]

Thats a good point.

It'll be interesting to see whether you can still build Swiss mercs when you can build muskets, Greece can still build Hopites when pikes are avaliable but musketmen have the extra attack. I can see not being able to build them after gunpowder being annoying.

I don't think there's any other instance like this. A UU being pretty much the same as a higher level unit except it loses one point off it's less significant stat (defence) and costs alot less.

Ideally you should be able to build both SMs and muskets at the same time. I guess this is the kind of thing the BTs sort out....

[Louis XXIV]

I would assume it would work like Egyptian War Chariots, which are cheaper than Horses but are wheeled.

If you need the extra attack you can build Muskets in addition to Swiss Mercs

[Jaybe]

All the foot units in the game are narfed!
Fortunately, there is the Editor. Make the attack strengths closer (or the same) as the attack strengths, change the fortified & river bonuses 50% (from 25%).

Then foot and fast units regain their proper roles (other than foot units not being able to retreat). Swiss pike mercenaries were respected for their offensive as well as their defensive value.

[Stuie]

Ok, ok. I forgot about the price tag.

Given that I almost never use a musketman to attack, I'd probably just keep any saltpeter unconnected and keep building the cheap SMs right up until I have Military Trad. Hmmm.... now maybe I am looking forward to playing the Dutch.

[G' Stath]

Originally posted by OPD
Thats a good point.

It'll be interesting to see whether you can still build Swiss mercs when you can build muskets, Greece can still build Hopites when pikes are avaliable but musketmen have the extra attack. I can see not being able to build them after gunpowder being annoying.

Abnother interesting point is whether the swiss mercs can be be upgraded (and into what unit) or not. If they can be build after musketmen are availiable then it might be possible that you won't be able to upgrade them into riflemen. That would lower their value as a UU (but IMHO it would bring balance since Swiss mercs are too cheep)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

To comment on an earlier point, re: Byzantines (grr) being Seafaring and Scientific... WTF?

I reiterate: WTF?

That makes very little sense whatsoever.

Seafaring... nngh... there is a case to be made... though in my opinion, that case is better made by commercial... just because the Byzantines ruled the Bosphorous? Seems a bit inane to me... certainly, there are better choices...

Scientific? What scientific progress did the Byzantines make? Other than Greek Fire, that is. RELIGIOUS is much more relevant... commercial is also a better choice... hell, militaristic is a better choice!

Then again, there were better choices for Civs than Byzantium, which, paired alongside Rome, is going to look fairly absurd... but I guess I'm being hasty to judge.

[kring]

The latest two civs have been added to their review, which are Inca and Hittites.

The Inca Civ

The Incans

Hundreds of years ago, a group of people calling themselves the Inca settled the Cuzco Valley high in the Andes Mountains of South America. Where they had come from was a mystery. Yet, though their purpose for settling such a rugged and inhospitable landscape was unclear, the end result of their arrival is without doubt. In time, the Inca built an empire that spanned the Pacific coast (as far south as Argentina and as far north as Ecuador), some 2,000 miles of hills, mountains, valleys and coastline. In just a short time, the Incan empire dominated South America and is, to this day, considered one of the finest empires the world has ever known.

Pachacuti leads the Incan nation in Civilization III: Conquests.



Beginning with the ninth ruler, Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui, the Inca began their expansion. Pachacuti won his first military campaign against the Chanca people, where he refused to retreat despite insurmountable odds. From there, he consolidated his control over his cultural base, Cuzco, and then moved north into the Urubamba Valley, which extended beyond the site where the lost city of Mach Picchu was later built. He then turned his army south and conquered the Colla and Lupaca tribes. Though not the first Incan ruler, Pachacuti was by many accounts one of the finest pre-Columbian persons that ever lived. A great military strategist, an architect, a skilled diplomat and a gifted religious philosopher, his teachings are still practiced by many Andeans today.

Like many other groups that preceded the Inca (the Chimu, the Nazca, the Moche), Incan society was heavily dipped in the worship of powerful gods. Their pantheon contained such lofty omnipotents as Viracocha (the god of creation), Inti (the sun and father of the Inca Dynasty), Illapa (god of rain, thunder, and lightening), Pacha Mama (mother of the earth), and Mama Cocha (mother of the lakes). Grand ceremonies were held frequently to honor these gods, for the Inca believed that if one did not give thanks and obedience to the gods, bad things would happen. The world of the Andes Mountains is full of ecological wonders [and] ecological disasters: Earthquakes, severe storms, and volcanic activity. The gods held sway with these events and thus the proper respect had to be paid at all times.

The Inca called their empire Tahuantinsuyu (''Land of the Four Quarters''), which was divided into four provinces. Each province was controlled by a local governor called the Apu; below him were the local rulers--the Curacas, and even lower still the district headsmen--the Camayoc. Through this governmental structure, the Sapa-Inca could rule the empire with impunity. Additional structures were also put in place, such as the Imperial road system, which was built along the steep inclines of mountains, interspersing bridges and stone walkways, stone steps and flat brick highways. To rule such a vast realm, the Sapa-Inca also needed constant information about the status of the far-flung reaches of the kingdom. To provide this information, the Inca formed the Chasqui Scout system. Chasquis delivered messages across the empire, relaying (by memory) important information from point to point. And in this way, a message about a peasant uprising hundreds of miles north of Cuzco could reach the king within a matter of days. Chasquis were also used by the army on campaigns to deliver messages between the moving columns. In addition, way-stations known as Tambos were constructed at strategic points along the roads, giving travelers and important dignitaries a place to rest and prepare for the next leg of their journey.

The Incan army was also well organized. When called upon to fight, each province would muster squadrons of men armed with maces, bows and arrows, slings, darts, and spears. During a battle, slingers would let fly a shower of rocks to soften the enemy lines. Then, archers would release their shafts, darts would fly, and then the shock troops would hit, in a torrent of screams and shouts meant to confuse and terrify the wavering opposition. Incan warfare was very successful. But nothing could prepare the empire for what was coming.

After the glorious rise of Pachacuti and his son, Topa Inca, the empire began to erode under a series of internal and external disasters. A bitter civil war between half-brothers Huascar and Atahuallpa stretched the empire to the breaking point. Atahuallpa won the war, quickly killed his half-brother, and declared himself king. But, in 1532 AD, Spanish Conquistadors, under the command of Francisco Pizarro, entered the Cajamarca Valley, brutally attacked Atahuallpa and his subjects, killing many and taking the Sapa-Inca hostage. Eventually, Pizarro killed Atahuallpa, pillaged the empire of its riches, and brought an end to the mighty Incan civilization.

In Civilization III: Conquests, the Incans are considered to be an expansionist and agricultural civilization. They start the game with pottery and masonry. They also begin the game with a regular scout and may build their unique chasqui scout units thereafter.

Unique Unit: The Chasqui Scout

The Incans can expand their holdings quickly with the help of the chasqui scout.



The chasqui scout system was the Incan equivalent to the Pony Express. Fast, agile, and capable of running long distances, chasqui scouts carried memorized messages along the Imperial road systems of the Andes Mountains. Couriers donned with distinctly white feathered headdresses, chasquis would memorize information, carry it to other scouts waiting along the relay system, and then run along with them until they memorized the message, and so on until the message was delivered. In this way, a message could travel over hundreds of miles within a few short days. Chasqui scouts were also used by the Incan army on campaign, to retrieve and deliver messages between the moving columns. The Incan chasqui scout is a scout unit that replaces the basic scout for the Inca. He has a modest attack and defensive capability. He is also very fast and ignores movement costs for both hills and mountains.

Att. Def. Moves Shield Cost
Standard Scout 0 0 2 10
Chasqui Scout 1 1 2 20

Next civ:

The Hittites

The Hittites

Compared to other great kingdoms of the Middle East, little is known of Hatti; and what is known is often derived from sources in other contemporary kingdoms such as Egypt. The Hatti, or Hittite, Empire was one of the great powers of Mesopotamia, rivaling Babylon and Egypt in military strength and influence. The first Hittites probably came from somewhere in the Caucasus or Russia, but settled in central Turkey and later in Syria, areas whose plentiful natural resources, particularly metals, would prove crucial to the power of Hatti. Early Hittite kings focused on consolidating their power in their chosen region, but Mursilis I proved more ambitious, opting to strike out and execute audacious raids against mighty Babylon. He had great success, and indeed was able to undermine and destroy the ruling Amorite dynasty in Babylon--the family from which most great Babylonian kings, including Hammurabi, came.

His majesty Mursilis I rules the Hittite nation.



When Mursilis was assassinated, a bloody struggle for the kingship followed; the eventual victor, Telipinus, formed his own legal code which helped mitigate later power plays. After that, the Hittite Empire fought brief wars with its neighbors, until the time for a reckoning with Egypt came. The famed battle of Kadesh, in 1299 BC, is one of the most well-known Bronze Age battles. The Pharaoh Ramses II moved into Palestine with a large army of chariots and infantry, to be met by a Hittite force of equal size--composed partly of three-man chariots, a much larger variant of the first wheeled fighting vehicles, which permitted the riders to fight hand-to-hand as well as at a distance. The Hittites were able to surprise the Egyptians near dusk, and only a dramatic forced march by the Pharaoh's reserves prevented the total destruction of the Egyptian army. The Hittites were forced to retreat, but given the casualties they suffered, the Egyptians were unable to capitalize on the Hittite retreat and Ramses' overall objective, Egyptian control of Palestine and Syria, was not achieved.

The Hittites are also suspected by archaeologists to be the first smelters of iron. During Hittite primacy, around 1250 BC, the Iron Age began in Turkey, with the Hittites able to remove impurities from iron to finally produce a metal strong enough to use for weapons. The technique caught on very quickly, adding to the Hittites' already substantial wealth. They were not able to exploit this advantage for long, though, as the other regional kingdoms could not afford to allow Hatti a monopoly on iron weapons. The end of the Hittite Empire came around 1100 BC, when mass migrations from Europe and the Caucasus caused the Empire to dissolve into dozens of small, semi-autonomous city-states. These city-states, in turn, were easily absorbed by upstart Assyria, which itself would dominate the Middle East for centuries thereafter.

In Civilization III: Conquests, the Hittites are considered a expansionist and commercial civilization. They start the game with pottery and the alphabet, and build the three-Man chariot instead of the standard chariot.


Unique Unit: Three-Man Chariot

The three-man chariot possesses exceptional offensive power.



Unique Unit: Three-Man Chariot The Hittites were perhaps most famous for waging fast, deadly warfare with their powerful heavy war chariots. The Three-Man Chariot was an improvement over other contemporary chariots in close combat, because it sacrificed speed for stability and ''elbow room'' with which to fight. At the battle of Kadesh, the Hittites utilized three-man chariots to closely engage the Egyptian forces--almost routing the entire Egyptian host. Hittite three-man chariots take the place of normal chariots. They move quickly and will withdraw from combat if they are losing (unless fighting another fast unit). Like other chariot units, they are wheeled and may not enter mountains, volcano, jungle, or marsh terrain unless following a road. A Hittite city must have horses in its strategic resources box to build a three-man chariot.

Att. Def. Moves Shield Cost
Standard Chariot 1 1 2 20
Three-man Chariot 2 2 2 30

[joncnunn]

Sounds to me like Dutch players shouldn't connect Saltpeter to their trade network until they discover military tradition.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

hardly.

a musketman has 2-4-1 stats, and costs 70. The Swiss Mercenary has 1-4-1 stats and costs only 30!! Same defense, for less than half the cost. Sounds like a bargain to me!

[Fatwreck]

maybe the game is samrt enough not to replace SM with musketman if saltpeter is connected?

[player1]

Maybe Musketmen is now 2.5.1 (not likely)?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Fatwreck
maybe the game is samrt enough not to replace SM with musketman if saltpeter is connected?

IIRC, you can build your UU even when you can build more advanced units. But I play with modded rules, so I may be wrong.

[History Guy]

Now, these chaps sound good.

I think I like the idea of the Chasqui Scout a bit less, though. However, the attributes are excellent and the leader is a very good choice.

Despite the fact that the Hittites were a poor choice in the first place (what are those guys thinking about not sticking in Israel?!), the attributes are good and so it seems is the UU.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by History Guy
The Dutch for Seafaring is to be expected, but not for Agricultural. I can only think that the Firaxians think only of tulips, windmills, and dykes in regards to those guys...

I disagree with you. The Dutch' greatest achievements are the Polders IMHO. And to me, polders mean either industrious or agricultural. I guess they have given Industrious to Carthage, so it leaves Agricultural to the Dutch.