Welcome To Bitterfrost! - Page 3

tanelorn · October 14, 2003, 19:43

Perhaps the syntax is wrong, in this particular event. It crashes for me too. But IF unitkilled=ANYUNIT goes for ToT 100% this is positive.
Then again, if you use the Editor to make an events file, and make manual modifications, the game may crash for no aparent reason. I suppose this goes vice-versa.

The moral being, "do not use the editor for events, ever"

curtsibling · October 14, 2003, 20:07

@Pericles:

I'll send you the new zip, and see if you can help me unravel this mystery!

St Leo · October 14, 2003, 20:12

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
But the Coven and Crusaders have a ton of settlers, but refuse to use them...Despite an abundance of plains and grasslands near them...What gives????

Someone help!
EEK!

Dunno. The fact that the AI refused to use settlers ruined much of my Imperial Ambition.

Palaiologos · October 14, 2003, 20:22

Quote:

Originally posted by tanelorn
Then again, if you use the Editor to make an events file, and make manual modifications, the game may crash for no aparent reason. I suppose this goes vice-versa.

The moral being, "do not use the editor for events, ever"

The events editor has never crashed for me when i am doing manual changes.

But i can tell you people this:Just the other day the bloody @#$!@ editor erased the whole Cosmic principles and tech tree sections of my rules.txt!!!

Couldn't believe my eyes.I am never going to use those editors again.

curtsibling · October 14, 2003, 20:28

My two thoughts for today:

1. The CIV2 editor is crap.

2. The CIV2 AI should be shot at dawn.

Cyrion · October 15, 2003, 02:46

curtsibling · October 15, 2003, 09:30

I should say that Pericles and I are performing a range of alchemical expriments on the files to try and get this AI settler conundrum sorted!

New data will be listed as it arrives!

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 16:32

Just to let you know, I gave workers maximum movement allowance and started skaning the map with the tutorial mode on. Although food yield is set higher than in vanila CIV, the "this is a nice spot to build a city" appeared only 3-4 times, over almost the entire map. So the AI doesn't think there are enough suitable places to build cities on this map.

Did you try setting terrain values to the original CIV ones (at least food-wise)?

Most terrains now have a uniform food yield of 2, which makes it hard for the AI to decide that a specific place has a clear advantage for it to build a city on (I guess)

Palaiologos · October 15, 2003, 16:39

Good thinking Timoleon!
It actually confirms the assumptions of the latest "alchemical" experiment.

Anyway i've already found out the problem(i think.....) and e-mailed Curt about it.

ARIANAAAARA OMADAAAARA,OE OE OE OOOOO!!!!!

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 17:36

I did some checking too,meanwhile to prove it. I set the game on auto till warmpeak 21. Results:
Cities-
Coven 3 (built 1)
Zatarn 2 (built 1 on the only clearing they found)
Undead 4 (built none)
Bursar 2 (built none)
Crusade 3 (Built 1)
Harpy 1

Then I changed @terain with @terain from the original game, and found the culprit!!!!

Cities-
Coven 35
Zatarn 2 (on the same clearing as before)
Undead 64! 64!
Bursar 10
Crusade 21
Harpy1 but they had built 1more on the shore and it was taken by the Bursar (it had a harpy name, and a revealed map up to it.)

Conclusion: Workers avoid dense forests, like those on the western (Zatarn) and southern (Bursar) coast at all costs. They also generaly avoid continuous icelands, but not on the same degree.

The Harpies won't start building before they get sight of land.

Suggested fix:
1- Change the terrain values closer to the original game ones.
2- Cut more clearings in the forests so as not to deter workers from building cities
3- Vary iceland terrain a bit on the southeasten shore (Crusade)
4- Give the harpies a visible patch of the coast from the begining, so the AI'll know where to move to.
It took me more time to write this than to check it.
I even double-checked, this is it.

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 17:59

Minor observartions:

On both file-sets, a number of AI workers stick on walls, buzzing on and off them. Mining hills seems to be hardwired in the system, so they try to mine even if they are not allowed by the rules.

Despite their having an increased variety of options, all build just the basic defense and attack unit.
Only the coven build all 3 initial types.
The Undead prefer building spectres to vile skeletons.
Perhaps because so much of the map is so large and dark, they are geared towards exploration (they prefer movement to attack/defense value)

Palaiologos · October 15, 2003, 18:10

Thats weird Tim.

You see in all my tests it was the Zatarn who built a ton of cities, with the three human kingdoms building none.

IIRC so it was in the first version as well.

Oh i forgot...
Curt is using a new map now(with continents on it)

One of the tests i did was this:I gave everybody the worker unit and made the other types(Nest mothers, undead workers etc.) not available,just to be sure.Result was that everybody started building cities.
At a point i used the civ2 original rules file and they even built cities on tundras(they kept loosing them by famine though....).

And amazingly in my games the Coven only built the basic defense and scouting unit!It was a walk in the park to conquer them!

Which difficulty were your tests made in?

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 18:26

On the recomended Champion level. This is because bellow Prince (Champion) level the game handicaps the AI players, and above it the AI cheats.
At Prince it's even.

The results where from the games with the standard @Terrain, with the numerous cities. Perhaps it is related to the size of the empire, perhaps it is due to the fact that the Coven were attacking the Undead, that had them surrounded.

I am positive that the AI won't build cities on forest terrain. The Zatarn are the forest chicks. Where did they build their cities?

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 18:41

Ãéá íá ãïõóôáñåé áëçèéíá ìéá ãõíáéêá êáìðéíãê ðñåðåé íá'íáé áíôéêïéíùíéêç,*ã*ìçôç, ìðé÷ëïöéëç,êåñáôïõêëù, áðåëðéóìåíç, öôõóìåíç & ãåíéêùò âëáììåíç.

A comment about the Zatarn love for the forests. No wonder they are grey and have horns, hey Peri?

Think about this too, by Cyrion in another thread:

"Unfortunately, not all unit slots can be barbarians. Oh, sure, it will create the unit - but it will vanish within a single turn. So, what units vanish and what ones stay around?

The units that stay around the longest are the modern units. Of those I tried, the longest lasting were: ironclads, cruisers, AEGIS cruisers, battleships, partisans, riflemen, paratroopers, armors, howitzers and cavalry. Other artillery-type units also lasted a long time. Earlier units tend to vanish more quickly (e.g., phalanx). If you produce a unit in one of the early ship slots, like caravels, they vanish within the turn -- not even lasting long enough to capture a city."

Palaiologos · October 15, 2003, 18:54

Here are the saves, see for yourself.

The bur1 is one of Curt's saves.You'll notice that the Crusaders and Coven have built no cities at all, while the Zatarn are expanding normally.

Prince difficulty,Bursars.

The Ig.auto is one of my saves AFTER i gave everybody access to the normal settler unit and dissalowed the rest.

Notice that everybody is building cities normally(the undeads have actually built one city and conquered the Harpies.

Crusaders, Deity.

It is on Curt's new map BTW.

Palaiologos · October 15, 2003, 18:58

Quote:

Originally posted by tanelorn
Ãéá íá ãïõóôáñåé áëçèéíá ìéá ãõíáéêá êáìðéíãê ðñåðåé íá'íáé áíôéêïéíùíéêç,*ã*ìçôç, ìðé÷ëïöéëç,êåñáôïõêëù, áðåëðéóìåíç, öôõóìåíç & ãåíéêùò âëáììåíç.

A comment about the Zatarn love for the forests. No wonder they are grey and have horns, hey Peri?

Kala pou to skeftikes auto?!!!!

tanelorn · October 15, 2003, 19:40

1 A certain person I know fits the bill.

2 Compare the two new maps. City expansion is still minimal, in comparison but the Civs expand in open ground, and in the new map the Zatarn have just that. The rest are uniformly blocked by a) icelands (UNDEAD,CRUSADE) b)dense forests & mountains (HARPIES) or a combination.

It is not a unit stats issue, its a terrain stats issue.

The new map mostly even less AI friendly, because it has more continuous icelands and forests.

If you want to see for yourself, replace @ terrain with @terrain from the mainfile MGE rules.txt, without the worker tweak. I expect human civs to fare better, and the Harpies & Undead to get stuck, because they start in such hostile terrain.
Honestly, the previous map was better.

Palaiologos · October 15, 2003, 20:11

1.I bet it was your ex LOL!

2.Sorry, but are we viewing diferent maps?The Crusaders have plenty of expansion space in the east, and the Coven both to the west and south.Yet they build nothing.

In one of other experiments i made, i build a full grassland(bitterfrost's thawland) map and started playing with the bitterfrost's rules file.Same results.But none of the civs this time build any cities.So i cheated and replaced the Crusader's city production item with Settlers.Being on deity they cranked up three settler units next turn(apparently extra shields are not lost in Deity) and immediately build three nearby cities and then again stopped.

Now in one of Curts events file Settlers were constantly created for the civs after 12 turns or something.Yet the AI just stacked them in his city.

In the end my guess is that the unit slot definetely has something to do with it, because once i made that worker tweak the AI started expanding normally with Bitterfrost's @terrain.
So its propably a combination of terrain and unit slots.

Exile · October 15, 2003, 20:22

It seems obvious, but . . .

There are numerous "hard-wired" aspects to both the terrain and units. Keeping both of these sets as close to the default game's original numbers and slots is recommended. Too much variation, too much alteration, too many exotic numbers will play havoc with the way the AI operates, both in terms of military expansion and city creation. This is what you're seeing. For exotic units and terrain types, it's best to use the types that are already exotic; the "inhospitable" terrains and the extra unit slots.

Suppose I should've chimed in before now, but then I just now took a look at this thread.

curtsibling · October 16, 2003, 06:58

UPDATE

Hey!
Thanks to all for advice and pointers, especially my fellow alchemist, Pericles.

I think tanelorn has the right of it.

I will return the rules file and it's terrain values back to normal.

A new AI-friendly map is being made,
Also the undead will lose their settler,
the slot will be uesd to create a new diplo unit for the Crusaders.
The witch also is to become a diplo unit for the Coven.

Time for a holy war!

A new map, less settlers, more normal terrain values, these will help get this scen working right.

curtsibling · October 16, 2003, 07:00

Quote:

Originally posted by tanelorn
Ãéá íá ãïõóôáñåé áëçèéíá ìéá ãõíáéêá êáìðéíãê ðñåðåé íá'íáé áíôéêïéíùíéêç,*ã*ìçôç, ìðé÷ëïöéëç,êåñáôïõêëù, áðåëðéóìåíç, öôõóìåíç & ãåíéêùò âëáììåíç.

A comment about the Zatarn love for the forests. No wonder they are grey and have horns, hey Peri?

Come on!

Translation please!

You forget we poor English-speaking Brits!

Cyrion · October 16, 2003, 07:29

First of all, forgive me if that's what you were speaking about while disserting on the terrain values (but I guess you were meaning the values that appear in the rules.txt). If I'm mistaken, then stop reading as you all know much more about scen building than I do...

The food a square gives is not all that is important for the AI to found a city: there is an attribute for each terrain: "fertility". This can't be modified in the rules, only by hex-editing! This value determines whether the AI will found a city or not, I believe!

So you might keep the actual values you gave to the terrain and "just" modify the fertility value, and then the AI should be founding the cities!

As I don't know much about this subject, here is an extract of a discussion, as well as a link to the related thread! Mercator seems to know what there is to know about it, so ask him...

Remember the conversation, Palaiologos??

Quote:

No that's not right.... The rules.txt has nothing to do with it. The AI only builds cities on grassland/plains anyway so you'd only waste a terrain type.
I meant hexediting the savegame. In the savegame, each map tile has a "fertility" value, this number is what determines how desirable a tile is. If you change that to the maximum, the AI will (almost?) certainly build a city on it (regardless of the civ's attitude).

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ight=fertility

And see Mercator's post in this thread too:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ight=fertility

Palaiologos · October 16, 2003, 08:01

Bugger!
You are right Cyrion!

Had completely forgot about fertility thing!

Although we wouldn't want the AI to build cities in every square, it would certainly help raising the fertility values of iceland.

Cyrion · October 16, 2003, 08:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Bugger!
You are right Cyrion!

Doesn't happen often enough...

curtsibling · October 16, 2003, 08:34

Cyrion, that is a good point!

I have changed the terrain back to an only mildly differing version of CIV2 vanilla.

It is still a case of using 'I' to improve terrain, though...

Are y'all OK with this new Cleric and Witch diplo idea?

tanelorn · October 16, 2003, 17:10

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
Come on!
Translation please!

No way,let's say it's not quite PC eco-feminist-wise.
Besides, I am a gentleman.

Peri hit the bull's eye with his remark, though.

Whenever a scenario offers a diplo option, I go for it head on. However will these diplomats have the ability to bribe the Undead/Ancient units and cities? I can hardly imagine bribed skeletons fighting for the Crusade. Deleting the bribe option from the menu only works for human players, not the AI. The only way to have unbribable ancients/undead in MGE is to make them a permanent democracy.

curtsibling · October 16, 2003, 18:11

This thought has crossed my mind...
Problems of this nature may occur.

I might not be a biggie to make the ancients and undead a democracy, but it would play hell with their war-capability.

I wonder if there is some hex solution.

Palaiologos · October 16, 2003, 18:36

Actually Curt they won't occur.

You see the AI anyway bribes units with its non-diplo soldiers(only on Emperor and deity though).

curtsibling · October 16, 2003, 19:14

Hmmm....

I wonder what else I could do with the diplo units then...?

Palaiologos · October 16, 2003, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by tanelorn
The only way to have unbribable ancients/undead in MGE is to make them a permanent democracy.

Don't tell me that in ToT you can make specific units non-bribable?