If you could add one new improvement to Civ3... - Page 4

Fosse · October 20, 2003, 21:54

The option to not honor a MPP. I think a window should come up saying, "Our Allies the French have been attacked by Cleopatra's armies. Shall we honor our Mutual Protection Pact, or back out to the dismay of the international community?"

Nine times out of ten I would honor the pact, but if I just signed the MPP with a little guy to make him like me, and he goes and causes a war with the big kid on the block for no good reason...

WarpStorm · October 21, 2003, 06:53

Fosse, I disagree. This would weaken MPPs too much. Instead only sign MPPs if you are really willing to fight the war.

Brundlefly · October 21, 2003, 10:06

If I could add one improvement...

Instead of 'Capture the Princess' game option, there would be a 'Capture Pedro Martinez' mode of play. Each civ would get a special 'Don Zimmer' unit to aid in the effort to capture the Pedro Martinez of opposing civs...

Shogun Gunner · October 21, 2003, 11:10

But all you would have to do is grab his head and push him to the ground!!!

Anyway see Halle Berry do that to "Don Zimmer" on Saturday Night Live? Hilarous.

alva · October 21, 2003, 12:03

Quote:

Fosse, I disagree. This would weaken MPPs too much. Instead only sign MPPs if you are really willing to fight the war.

Yeah, must agree with Warp on this one, it has exploit written all over it I'm affraid..

kermit_the_frog · October 21, 2003, 15:35

i would make the airplanes simalur to the ones on the old civ 2

Fosse · October 21, 2003, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Fosse, I disagree. This would weaken MPPs too much. Instead only sign MPPs if you are really willing to fight the war.

Well, Firaxis says... You win!

Though my reasoning is to combat the current ridiculous situation in which the player can control who goes to war with whom by exploiting the current MPP rules, and also to give the feeling of control to diplomacy. When two of my allies go to war with each other, I should decide my involvement based on more than which territory the fighting units are in.

Another change I'd like to see in Civ... population growth divorced from food levels. It would be more interesting if factors such as a city's economy, the Civ's health tech levels, and the age of the city influenced city size, and then the player had to provide the food to meet the demand.

-Fosse

WarpStorm · October 21, 2003, 21:11

Well, I do admit that I have used MPPs to direct the flow of wars myself.

If you didn't know if the AI would honor your MPP when push comes to shove would you still sign them? (Now that I think about it I probably would).

Slohanz9 · October 21, 2003, 21:11

I'd like to simplify the battles so that a unit with double the attack strength of the defender's defense would almost always win the battle. Assuming the defender didn't have bonuses totaling over maybe 50% i'd say let the attacker just barely win most of the time, lose a few and easily win almost none if u challenged, say, 10 spearmen with your 10 immortals.
As it is now it can be difficult to predict how many units u need to handle a pocket of enemies because the luck fluctuates so wildly at times.

Solomwi · October 21, 2003, 23:27

Quote:

As it is now it can be difficult to predict how many units u need to handle a pocket of enemies because the luck fluctuates so wildly at times.

To me, that's one of the things that makes Civ3 a better game. Unexpected setbacks are part of the game, as well as the real world. Deciding whether to plan for them (and delay your objectives) or charge ahead and press your luck is just one more of the choices that makes the game so rich.

On MPP's, my main gripe is signing an MPP with a small civ to wipe out a few of those annoying island cities my enemy founded, almost always lightly defended, then seeing no progress on said island, having to go wipe them out myself AND being stuck for however many more turns in this MPP with a civ that now can offer me no strategic benefit whatsoever, but can drag me into a war I don't want. But then again, that's why I'm trying to break that habit, too.

bvoncranium · October 22, 2003, 01:33

What I want most:
Regarding battle in Civ3, my #1 request would be the battle event log/vcr/whatever that tells you what happened in conflicts that your troops are involved in (even the ones you initiate, for the record). However, since that is well covered ground here...

I'd certainly like my otherwise lame Military Advisor to be able to tell me the probability of success in a battle before I launch into it. Other games have this feature and it's pretty useful, especially early on when one is learning the game.

As this feature is missing from Civ3, I rely on a spreadsheet that does all of the math according to the combat formulae (I also have trialed some of the other utilities and spreadsheets posted on the 'net). Having it gives me an advantage over the people I play MP with... still I'd be happy to give this advantage up for the convenience of having it built into the game.

What I need most:
A GetALife Advisor that pops up and says: "You've been playing this game for 3 hours now, shouldn't you be living real life instead?"

-bvc

bvoncranium · October 22, 2003, 02:04

From the software and game mechanics aspects, some improvements that I expect the Civ community would welcome include:

* clean program exit: your computer's available resources should be identical before and after running Civ3PTW.

* holding the screen view for at least a few seconds when one of your units reveals new tiles, foreign units, resources, etc. The immediate shift to next unit is annoying when you want/need to see what you've just discovered or encountered with the unit you just moved.

* Save before end of turn in PBEM. With the 1.27f patch you can only Save at the end of your turn - neither Save nor Autosave are permitted. This means that if for any reason your game is interrupted (power outage, others need the computer, life, etc.) your only option is to reload and redo the turn. There has to be a better way...

* fixing the PBEM Save-Continue bug whereby certain Civs get extra movement in a Continued game.

* adding a counter that tells you how many times a turn was loaded, to make it obvious when players are reloading turns (in PBEM games a player can reload and process their turn as many times as they like until they are happiest with the outcome).

* this would probably cause all kinds of exploits but... having an 'Undo' option for units who move without going into combat or revealing new terrain (i.e. whose movement offers no revealing advantage), or joins a city. It is disappointing when after spending a long time on a turn an errant mouse-click (or the cat jumping on the keyboard) causes a unit to move into the wrong tile, unrecoverably. I am very careful with this, after being burned several times; still once you get to 100s of units for many turns these kinds of mistakes do happen - it would be nice to undo them. Right now the only way seems to be to redo the entire turn, which is a needless waste.

There are many, many more enhancements that would be nice... their description will have to wait for another post.
-bvc

Stuie · October 22, 2003, 08:31

Quote:

Originally posted by bvoncranium
* holding the screen view for at least a few seconds when one of your units reveals new tiles, foreign units, resources, etc.

I'm sorry, but that would bug the crap out of me. They would have to make it optional.

Quote:

* this would probably cause all kinds of exploits but... having an 'Undo' option for units who move without going into combat or revealing new terrain....

Well, you said it yourself: Exploit. I just chalk up errant moves to the misfortunes of war.

Brundlefly · October 22, 2003, 09:13

I would like to simply have a popup at the end of each turn that tells me what cities are in disorder, do I wish to end the turn anyway. Some might suggest that you can already do that by letting governor control happiness, but I dont like the way governor uses city tiles when you give it control. Governor is also bad because often times a taxman or scientist can be used instead of entertainer to control happiness. So this popup window whould be quite useful especially later in games when you have 20, 30, or more cities and you are checking them every turn to see who grew and who became more unhappy.

Fosse · October 22, 2003, 21:58

Another wish for me... Political borders that can be moved in diplomacy. Especially for MP.

GhengisFarb™ · October 22, 2003, 22:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Fosse
Another wish for me... Political borders that can be moved in diplomacy. Especially for MP.

Yes, I've thought that would be a cool game function also.

The_Aussie_Lurker · October 22, 2003, 22:42

I totally agree with you Fosse and GF! I certainly hope that this kind of thing will be a major component of the NEXT XP

!!!
I really like the concept of Cultural borders, but felt that border adjustments and even land trades should be part of the diplomacy system!
It shouldn't be that hard to do, under the 'Trading Table', you'd have a minimap of all the territory you are currently aware of. You click on it and form a square/ rectangle over all of the tiles you want to trade, surrender, etc!! The rest of it would work exactly like any normal trade! For an example-let's say that you notice some lovely coal in some land that you haven't quite claimed yet! You have a colony exploiting the resource, but your neighbours borders are expanding rapidly! You go to the negotiating table, and click on the minimap to form a rectangle over that piece of land (the minimap would indicate major terrain features, and also have representations of all cities and terrain improvements). You then say what you will offer in return for the land you want to claim. The land doesn't even have to be near your borders (can you say 'Louisiana Purchase'?) In addition, this system could be used as a means to give up land-usually in return for peace-or possibly even to create a DMZ situation (where NO ONE gets the land!) As a final point, it might also be great, under this system, if you could sacrifice explorers to 'Lay Claim' to unclaimed foreign territory! It would create a 'Culture Zone' of about between 2x2 and 4x4 tiles!
Anyway, just some thoughts!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

SSBLoveU · October 23, 2003, 08:05

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
I totally agree with you Fosse and GF! I certainly hope that this kind of thing will be a major component of the NEXT XP

!!!
I really like the concept of Cultural borders, but felt that border adjustments and even land trades should be part of the diplomacy system! . . .
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I was thinking that this could be allowed under some political systems while others could have Royal Families. Marriages could influence family wealth. And with some political systems there could be different political parties. Civil Wars could allow people to fight themselves (a way for someone to enter midway in a game). Also, the formation of resistance groups could make espionage an interesting sub-game, and every good spy could gain control over cities or at least become part of the population. The spy could be a scout (spearman ---> tank). (Who really uses the explorer?) (I like them but never have time for them.) The explorer could have the option of becoming a scientist, engineering, diplomat or spy. The scout could also carry written information from civilization to civilization until the radio is developed. The explorer would be important because he could ride horses, and he could get massages to allies quicker. The radio would make the messenger obsolete. So now, a well-known upgraded scout could enter into a favorite city, and he could organize his friends in the city to do something. Maybe, work on Einstein's formula or develop a better peace treaty or steal the plans for the Panther Tank. The messenger would then have to make it back to his home city or use his radio. The radio message could be bugged or he could be questioned by security. The scout now would become an important player to keep throughout the game because he could make friends or enemies. He would be an important player like the tank in the end game. And the older the scout was, the more important he would become in the end game.

Grim Legacy · October 23, 2003, 08:33

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
It shouldn't be that hard to do, under the 'Trading Table', you'd have a minimap of all the territory you are currently aware of. You click on it and form a square/ rectangle over all of the tiles you want to trade, surrender, etc!! The rest of it would work exactly like any normal trade! For an example-let's say that you notice some lovely coal in some land that you haven't quite claimed yet! You have a colony exploiting the resource, but your neighbours borders are expanding rapidly! You go to the negotiating table, and click on the minimap to form a rectangle over that piece of land (the minimap would indicate major terrain features, and also have representations of all cities and terrain improvements). You then say what you will offer in return for the land you want to claim. The land doesn't even have to be near your borders (can you say 'Louisiana Purchase'?) In addition, this system could be used as a means to give up land-usually in return for peace-or possibly even to create a DMZ situation (where NO ONE gets the land!) As a final point, it might also be great, under this system, if you could sacrifice explorers to 'Lay Claim' to unclaimed foreign territory! It would create a 'Culture Zone' of about between 2x2 and 4x4 tiles!
Anyway, just some thoughts!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I see some problems with that, since it conflicts with the culture-based approach to borders as it is now.
For example- who will you pay for 'unclaimed' land? It belongs to nobody after all. You could try to arrange it so that everyone gets a share but this would be equally unrealistic for small/hostile/far-away civs.
Also, what if you trade to expand your border a bit and then one of the two competing civs's cities increases it's radius? Does the border ever again move or is it fixed forever?

The_Aussie_Lurker · October 23, 2003, 19:14

Grim Legacy I see this idea, not as a replacement to Cultural Borders, but as an adjunct to it! The person you'd pay for unclaimed land would be the Civ whose cultural borders lie CLOSEST to the land you want! All that such a deal would do would be to prevent that Civs cultural borders from growing out to encompass that land for the length of time of the treaty! After that, if you've not taken steps to lay claim to it through culture, then 'All Bets are Off'-as they say

! Also, it would by NO MEANS stop a third Civs borders from swallowing up that territory-unless you made a similar deal with them! As you can see then, culture is still a VITAL component to the border system-my idea simply adds a few new kinks to the system, but ones which still remain subservient to the original intent of the games designers

!! After all, using money to buy land from several civs is going to be VERY expensive, unless you back it up with cultural strength! In addition, if you are strong militarily, then it gives you another new way of exercising that POWER

!! Again, though, culture takes precedent over this system!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Elias · October 23, 2003, 22:31

I would like to see this Implimented into the game but what if your on An Island by yourself or dont know about any other civs yet and just want to claim that one little space so the AI dosent plant a city smack dab on your territory. I would like to see borders stay permenant after all how often does mexico get control of the Rio Grande

Colonies should also count as one square of your territory I hate it when the AI plants citys next to your Collonies. I also herd somthing about the economy a while back I think this would add much realisim to the game Example China earns 240Bil a year and mylasya a much small country with much fewer people makes 280Bil a year canada is larger then the U.S but earns less money and all the European nations would be broke.

Guynemer · October 23, 2003, 23:39

Attrition, like in RON.

The_Aussie_Lurker · October 23, 2003, 23:41

Could you be a little more specific about 'Attrition' Guynemer?

Aussie_Lurker.

Elias · October 24, 2003, 00:04

When your go into enemy territoy without supply trucks you recive damage to your units. This would add realisim to the game Germany had a huge supply train which cost them dearly.

Elias · October 24, 2003, 00:06

In a way this is already in the game when your unit goes down to 1hp you need to retreat to your territory to get it healed(unless you have batfiled medicne) It is also harder to replace lost units at further distances. I always hated this in rise of nations too much to worry about.

Guynemer · October 25, 2003, 00:19

It could work that all units in enemy territory lose 1 HP for every 3 or 4 turns in enemy territory... could be adjusted up or down by certain techs or wonders... could be avoided outright by having a certain specialized unit in the same square (supply wagon)...

Outsider · October 25, 2003, 14:30

Maybe you just fight differently than I do, but I rarely have a significant number of units in hostile territory for more than a few turns before the parcel of land they're on becomes friendly. Do you march your armies into your enemies country and sit em there without taking cities?

Guynemer · October 25, 2003, 17:16

No, but the AI does on occasion.

Outsider · October 26, 2003, 21:53

One other thing...

Is your handle "Guynemer" because you really like the game "Blue Max", because you have an interest in WWI fighter pilots through some other route, or is it something else entirely?

Elias · October 27, 2003, 22:26

I dont like the attrition Idea to complicated. I think the current systym has somthing that could be subustitued for it. But if it was added in you would have to be in frendinly terrirory connected to the trade routs if the current supply was not in supply in the square you were in you could not heal your units and they would recive attrition damage (yes even in your territory) You would also need some kind of supply train you could supply with oil or rubber etc.. the supply train should be returned to freindly territor and be refiled with supplies every 3-4 turns each supply wagon could support so many units per turn per resoucre type.