cycon and the road forward

Flubber · October 14, 2003, 15:03

Well I was plenty pissed off at the cyborgs but the fact that they sought an advance truling from googlie means they are untrustworthy only and not cheaters.

We have to move on. While part of me wants to go banzaii and declare war on them, I don't think we are in any position to declare war on anyone. So IMHO we have to suck it up amd chalk it up as one to learn by . . .

I do propose the following actions as the cycon have shown themselves to be untrustworthy

1. Immediate militarization. Probeships, stronger defenders and probe defenders as priorities. The cycon are liars and we must be ready in case their breaking the pact is a prelude to try to invade us. I recommend we go green and go 100% energy and then whip the fungus to try to harvest IODs for our navy or energy credits. I also recommend we sell techs to other factions in the game to speed up this process. We should lick miriams feet if it will get us nonlinear maths. All of this readiness can be turned on Roze if our relationship with the cyborgs improves enough that we can lessen homeland defense.

I am also proposing we set out a no-go zone around our seabases-- Troops traversing some else's landmass is usually taboo so I think we should say the same for the sea . . . I will take a look at an old turn as to routes we should be patrolling-- I don't recall any narrows that would make our task easier

2. I will attempt reconciliation with the cyborgs. I don't want us in a war with them. In addition they are saying that they will pay us HEC in completion of old deals. I want that tech enough to see if this time they will keep their word.

3. I want to attempt a pact to the end with someone. I know our experience with the cyborgs has not been stellar but I now propose the university as a possible ally to the end . . . we will be careful that our trust only goes so far

Note based on this experience we cannot pre-accept anything anymore with anyone . . . I was upset that we pre-accepted doc ini when they had more than one turn left to research but my comment on this got to the turn-player too late . .. Water under the bridge.

I believe that the cyboorgs have made a serious mistake in alienating us for a tech and that this mistake will hurt them I the long run

on a personal note I am now more motivated than ever to participate more in this game. I don't think I can improve on what herc and johnd have been doing BUT you will be hearing more and more from me on the actual playing of the turn.

Hercules · October 14, 2003, 19:26

That's the spirit. We can't go green yet. I agree with strong probe defence and attack. And no doubt they (the Cyborg) will be building defence probes furiously now.

My Pact preference is with the Put and Hive (for reasons given earlier and elsewhere, though Archaic's comments in Flubber's explanation thread aren't so endearing).

Difficult to say if we won the propaganda battle.

foolish_icarus · October 14, 2003, 23:25

Just saw all this.

It has been blown way out of proportion (which I must admit has made it entertaining once it was provided that Googlie will stay).

Obviously we must have our revenge. I will provide no specific suggestions as I have never been good at executing wars against human opponets.

Regarding permapacts, I see the PUT as a more viable option. Though the Hive may be truthful, I don't see them as faithful.

As for the threads on the public forum: We kind of came out looking like the skunks, if for nothing else than the fact that the bulk of messages are by us, so when people look at the threads, they associate the episode more with us than with the Cycon. It is probably best to capitalize on the Cycon's untrustworthiness in private factinoal messages than in the Public Forum.

Makahlua · October 15, 2003, 04:36

And also since we brought this to light, perhaps the other factions will think twice before pre accepting anything with them. And on that note, any future tech deals with Cycon are cash up front

Ok so more Party Poopers in Tripoli; I'll try and bring back the explorer ships ASAP to watch the Cycon border too

Mark123jansen · October 15, 2003, 09:44

I say Kill Kill Kill them all, death to the cycons. build a military and attack!!!

Flubber · October 15, 2003, 11:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Hercules
That's the spirit. We can't go green yet.

Why not ??Do we not have the tech?? Or is it that a number of bases need to grow more?

Flubber · October 15, 2003, 12:06

Quote:

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
As for the threads on the public forum: We kind of came out looking like the skunks, if for nothing else than the fact that the bulk of messages are by us, so when people look at the threads, they associate the episode more with us than with the Cycon. It is probably best to capitalize on the Cycon's untrustworthiness in private factinoal messages than in the Public Forum.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Once I saw that buster and archaic saw nothing wrong ( in the cheat sense) with the cycon action I knew that we would lose the its a cheat argument. I felt I should explain my thinking.

Googlie has indicated to me that he will publicly admit his own role in the resignation incident so PEACE will smell a little better. I believe Johndmuller overreacted and have told him so and I have also told googlie that he overreacted as well.

Bottom line is we cried cheat when it wasn't . . . I think I come off looking like an idiot for not knowing this but I don't care if people think flubber is stupid. I'm hoping by staying factual and matter of fact in the current thread, I am getting the other factions to accept what happened. Thats why my account has been as factual as I can make it.

I agree that a further more dramatized version of the misdeeds should make their way to the other factions . . . I just thought the timing was wrong now when everyone is focused on googlie resigning-- Let that tempest subside and then it will be time to recount the story to all.

Hercules · October 15, 2003, 12:29

I don't believe we have the tech. If we obtain SOHB from PUT via a trade for Doc:Loyalty or purchase we would have the prerequisites for Cent. Emph and it might appear in our next tech offering box, after we discover Adapt Econ.

Whichever way we are some years from discovering it ourselves. However Roze discovers SOHB in 3 years and it might be the new tech choice she would opt for.

We could feed her discovered techs into minute mirages spreadsheet and see what's likely.

In our pursuit of probing, we might want to decide which is best for us. Foil probes, or normal but strengthened probes on transports. If the probe is destoyed we still have the transport. Against that the foil probe is faster and would not use up a min production and can be out there patrolling without penalty if we go FM.

Maybe a popped pod will deliver us a cruise probe goodie (6MP).

johndmuller · October 15, 2003, 14:58

I'm sure I overreacted to Googlie's attacks on myself and Cap'ns Hercules and Flubber, when he equated our actions to those of the Borg, and that was regrettable. As the comment of mine that got Googlie so worked up, I'm certainly sorry for his distress, but I wasn't gunning for him in the first place, it was just supposed to be a gentle reminder that he should watch out for these appearances of impropiety. It was a sort of straw-man, like: 'if Googlie knew about all this stuff in advance and was in on the plot to extract the tech from us, then that would be really bad, wouldn't it, ha, ha?'. Obviously, Googlie got a different message, more like: 'G, you conned us into giving them the Doc:Init, then you told them it was OK to take it.' Obviously, I should have chosen my words more carefully or not even brought it up at all; it wasn't even the point of the paragraph it was in, which was mainly to have another angle to vent some more at the *&(&*$#in' Borg.

That was one hell of a gentle straw-man

,
we need to recruit some of them for our army.

--------------------

As to the probe question, I don't think there is one really great approach; until we get fusion, the PartyBoats are pretty expensive (and CruiserProbes are outrageous) and the BootyBoat + SpeederProbe method is not cheap either and if we're successful, the boat and the probe end up in different places (it does allow for cheaper multiple probe missions, which could allow us to probe a base that already had a defensive probe in it). We could also consider a CruiserTransport + SpeederProbe(s) for more speed (if we wanted that, it could be an item for temporarily researching during pod pops) and of course alternate uses such as invasions.

I've tried to think of a decent way to use Infantry probes on the attack, but until/unless we have elite ones, I don't see any tactics that look very promising. I know that Cap'n Hercules can be pretty sneaky and persistent with probes, so maybe he has a secret method of doing this, but the best I can come up with is to find a landing tile with fungus on it (to hide in 'til the next turn) 3 tiles from the target, with a river going at least the first two tiles of the way. Of course we could get lucky (I think that's where Cap'n Herc's persistence thing is supposed to pay off) and sneak up on them without getting seen, but with all those other people (potentially) doing the looking, I think it'll be hard to get away with. (I doubt that it's legal to do it in an intentionally and organized way, but I'm sure that a fair amount of individual free-lance turn playing goes on among the non-turn players just for their own entertainment, and that no doubt some things are occasionally discovered this way that the turn player would not have seen and probably some of it filters out into the mainstream. It's hard to resist playing from the main download sometimes while waiting for the turn player, but it's even worse if you play from it and see some disaster lurking around the corner - 'Don't go there, Cap'n Hercules, whatever you do, there's an Ogre that way ... , Oh NO, he's doing it, here it comes ..., Arghhh!!').

Cap'n Hercules: what kind of strengthening do you mean when you say 'strengthened probes on transports'? Have you hacked into the 'double-strength invisibility cloak' ability?

Cap'n Maki: If you followed my advice and started shipping off that Infantry Probe from Tripoli to points west, it might be wise to belay that order and keep that defensive probe in the east somewhere - in light of our new 'relationship' with the Borg.

FlameFlash · October 15, 2003, 15:32

I like options 1 and 2 Flubber.

Let's teach the backstabbers a lesson.

After all, even if they do fulfill that bargain that has been standing for so long, we still have every right to go to war with them over the other lost tech.

Flubber · October 15, 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by FlameFlash
I like options 1 and 2 Flubber.

Let's teach the backstabbers a lesson.

After all, even if they do fulfill that bargain that has been standing for so long, we still have every right to go to war with them over the other lost tech.

The immediate militarization in my conception is mainly so we can deal with their aggression-- I see Roze as the most profitable target-- We should be able to out0tactic the AI quite easily and gain a wonderfully large island

I don't think we need to panic yet-- the cyborgs will have only somewhat of an idea of where we are and they will have to explore to get a better sense. thats why I doubt they can be coming for us in major force.

On shipbuilding, while I like cruisers. we should build foils-- quantity matters-- I also prefer probeships to the transport and probe combo . . . We have had lousy luck in losing probeships on pretty benign missions but they are important

Defensive probes-- in priority ONLY in the areas closest to the cyborgs and then spreading. Its useless to have a probe in every base if they can kill the defensive units and make the probe disappear-- I want ships and fast

Hercules · October 15, 2003, 18:16

By strengthened I meant built at a command centre. Before the pact with the Borg ended, an examination of their bases revealed few if any probes of any sort being built. I think it is important to infiltrate them, as a priority, so we can monitor what they're up to: their techs progress, their build programmes etc. Stealing tech from them at this stage is not a priority as we have a slight tech lead.

It is also important to see if they deliver HEC, which was the primary object of the whole exercise.

I forgot about the F4 screen option (as you will have read about in the learning thread) as I rarely if ever used it previously, to examine the geography around a faction.
But I suspect Kody is piecing together a map of our bases and territory. The Hive are starting to systematically build probe units so we'd need infilration of the Hive and Drones before the shutters come down.

Remember a pirate with one eye patch is fearsome, a pirate with two eye patches is blind.

johndmuller · October 15, 2003, 21:16

I think I posted somewhere in here about my experience infiltrating pactmates - in a game where I infiltrated a pactmate then unpacted, my infiltration went away. I remember it very clearly (I lost my probe both times) so I know it happened at least in that case. I don't know if that is what always happens, so if anyone knows for sure one way or another it would be nice to get that straight as otherwise we could waste some of those expensive partyboats.

I looked through their F4 screens a while ago with that in mind, seeing if I could piece together their central area and it seemed reasonably possible. It is still a bit of work and would be a good exercise in using one's graphics program. Kody will have a harder time of it as there is less differentiatiion among sea tiles than among the land (what with rivers & different kinds of terrain), and our bases have very little overlap, which is necessary to link them up - perhaps only on HMB. OTOH, some of those people have done quite a lot of work at various things, and for all I know, there are subtle ways of connecting the dots (like noting the time a ship takes to go from one base to another and which way it is facing when it comes in to town), but that kind of level of compulsion may be beyond even the tireless masses.

Atlantian · October 15, 2003, 22:50

Oh well. The very least we can do is tell our parrots to take care of their waste closer to the Cycon territory...

Oooh! Oooh! Propaganda! Must think of propaganda!
*Runs off to work room to think*

Hercules · October 15, 2003, 23:21

Well I did a bit of work on the Hive F4 screen and on the PUT. Unfortunately I am crap with graphics. But I think I have determined the bases relation to each other for both those factions. There is a lot of overlap with the Hive bases areas as you would imagine which helped.

The area /island they have uncovered is roughly diamond shaped. So useing your imagination this is the relative positions.

HIVE FACTION

St Octavian Jamski Clove Hive
Honghu Konghu Vandenburg Voltairegrad Kommunis Rosskovsky
Utopia Vetopia Michanapolis Googliegrad
Central Planning New Moscow

if you travelled due north from our PMS Farragut (nearing completion of circumnavigation) I estimate you would encounter New Moscow then Kommunista City and then Rosskosvsky Coast, then following the coast in a north westerly fashion you would meet with , the Hive, then Jamski Clove and St Octavian.

The PUT is simpler , their island is roughly an inverted pyramid. By the way did we note that The PUT and HIVE have an informal truce in operation.

PUT Faction

Climatic Research Otkieski ? Mendelian ?
Zoloty Gold Kopperncik
University base Mir Lab
Monitoring station
Budsida ?

Also reasonable base area overlap. They also have the Borehole Cluster. We can just see the outer base area edge of University Base with the solar special just below in the sea (Blue Yonder)

Kody · June 13, 2004, 09:40

I was obtaining your base coordinates by looking at the gotos on your transports. It gave me the coordinates of where your bases were.

GeoModder · June 14, 2004, 04:36

mental note: do not use gotos anymore in a PBEM...

Kody · June 14, 2004, 06:01

Yeah I know

The trick I picked up was "shift move". Press shift then the movement keys. Ofcourse after it became obvious that people were finding bases using other methods

I gave up on that.

FlameFlash · June 15, 2004, 23:57

Yuck.

Those aren't really strategies IMHO... just have to be watchful from now on, that's for sure.

Water under the... transport...

Kody · June 16, 2004, 00:59

Yeah I know it isn't a strategy, it was an exploit.

Illuminatus · June 19, 2004, 11:54

Unfortunately, there are too many ways to locate the base in dark.

Snowflake · June 21, 2004, 14:51

What is truely unfortunete, was that there are too many people who are fond of using those exploits.

GeoModder · June 21, 2004, 15:32

hear hear. Although I must say that first time I heard of this exploit I actively used it in a private game. Now :shrug: it isn't worth the time and effort.

Snowflake · June 21, 2004, 15:52

When I first started I didn't have SMAX. I opened several turns of ACDG in word. I also tried the resigning trick in a SP game just to see how it is like. Now I just can't understand why people still like to spoil the fun of expecting and searching in the unknown.

FlameFlash · June 25, 2004, 02:48

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
When I first started I didn't have SMAX. I opened several turns of ACDG in word. I also tried the resigning trick in a SP game just to see how it is like. Now I just can't understand why people still like to spoil the fun of expecting and searching in the unknown.

Can't argue there HH.