A ruling by googlie that suprised me ( will shed a little light on his resignation)

[Maniac]

Hercules:

As Drogue already pointed out, my comments are particularly meant for one person, who happens to be a member of PEACE. I don't have any (out-of-character) problem with any other PEACE member or PEACE in general.

Flubber:

Both objectives have been met but on a personal level I get peeved when someone accuses me of slow negotiating-- Thats an outside the game criticism and I responded.

I certainly don't want to blame you for having more important priorities (wife, child...) than fast negotiating in this ACDG. However likewise you should also accept that our EAF DBTS has other more important priorities and can't always fully participate in this game, which partially lead to this tech affair, and you accusing us of cheating. My comment was meant to refer to that. In previous posts you seemed to imply that all the responsibility of the unallowed tech acception lay with us (saying you sent the PM two days before we got the turn etc...), so I wanted to point out PEACE also played a part.

[FlameFlash]

I certainly don't want to blame you for having more important priorities (wife, child...) than fast negotiating in this ACDG. However likewise you should also accept that our EAF DBTS has other more important priorities and can't always fully participate in this game, which partially lead to this tech affair, and you accusing us of cheating. My comment was meant to refer to that. In previous posts you seemed to imply that all the responsibility of the unallowed tech acception lay with us (saying you sent the PM two days before we got the turn etc...), so I wanted to point out PEACE also played a part.

Two days, IMHO, is plenty of time to get on 'poly at least once and if not possible, we need a game-wide thread that states "I'm not here" when we know we won't be and to whom communications should be directed during that time.

Would this not fix the problem at least marginally?

It is not, after all, other team's jobs to make sure that all diplomatic messages are being sent to the right other team members to avoid confusion, but the team who is being communicated to to make clear to whom they should be being communicated to through.

[Flubber]

Also it was about a week before that the cycon had instructed me to send diplomatic communications to the individual in question. This came from a PM where I believe I mentioned TRADING the tech in question.


Maniac, I believed it was a cheat to accept a tech when the offer came with a note not to accept it unless terms were agreed. I have been corrected on that point. However the belief is not that far fetched as I believe a member of your own faction resigned over this matter.

I now understand that anything goes. A faction could theoretically even tell us in an email that they considered it a cheat not to abide by any immediate conditions that accompanied a tech offer. Or they could lie and tell us that emails were not received or whatever.

I could write " This tech is not to be accepted unless you send 50 ec in the commbox. It is ONLY preaccepted for ease of communication since you will discover the tech otherwise yourself and it is impossible for me to set out the deal that we want from our side of the diplo box"

and that still doesn't matter-- the tech could still be accepted without breaking a rule-- As buster points out, the other side could say "thanks suckers-- oh you had conditions . . . well too bad . . . treachery is part of the game"

I now know this. I didn't before.

[Voltaire]

Treachery has always been part of the game, the fact that you remained ignorant of this only served to make your more vulnerable to it. State will always conduct themselves in whatever manner serves their best interest, Machiavellianism has and always will be the only sensible foreign policy to pursue.

Does this imply that trust should be discarded completely? Quite the contrary, rather trust should be based upon mutual need, rather than some blind faith in the integrity of another individual. Underestimating your enemy in conflict is a cardinal sin; therefore find understanding in the reason of your enemy, for reason dictates the actions of states (or at least should). And this action was in compliance with reason, it would have been foolish to pass it up.

[FlameFlash]

You would be right, Voltaire, except for the fact that RW situations are very different from in-game situations.

A generally accepted practice to speed tech transfers between pactmates in a game is to do exactly what Flubber did.

I have never done so in any of my PBEM games more because I have a bad memory of games because I play so many than because I think my opponent may "screw" me.

I agree 'bad form' and all that, and the mere fact that the CyCon are now known as being untrustworthy RP world-wide and that nobody can take their word seriously in-game should be enough punishment IMHO.

Flubber, Herc, and all PEACE members have learned something it seems others have already known, but what I think has gotten Flubber's goat the most is that he will feel as though any/all members of CyCon are dishonorable in other areas besides this game, which may make even their general postings on other threads here suspect and less fun for all parties involved.

No matter if that opinion is fair or not, or if members of the CyCon care or not, that may be the case for some members of the PEACE now.

Honor is something I take highly, no matter where, as does, it seems Flubber.

The only thing we can do from now on, though, is create something like what I mentioned. An 'I'm not here' thread, so that communications will not be 'lost' as easily.

Thus, after that a 'bad form' could and should have the qualification of a cheat only because a faction is purposefully 'missing' a communication.

And it is now that I see the failure in a team democracy game...

In multiplayer standard PBEM it is much easier to see who is at fault and who is not, who 'screwed' who and who did not. Even following the common forms is easier because everyone already knows them and the diplo box in-game is all that is generally needed.

That not being the case in a demo-PBEM, form was modified by Flubber in such a way as he felt was proper. Common sesnse should have told the turn player (who was it?) that since there was a trade-box text to do with the pre-accepted item that it be followed, as opposed to typing '???' and moving on the turn player should have inquired, though the turn player should have also been made more privvy to what was going on. All players should have been more privvy.

I, for one, do not fault Googlie one bit and hope that in other games I play, if asked, he'll be willing to be a CMN, but in this case we have all learned that unlike most standard PBEM the Googliegod or whomever the CMN must remain silent totally and simply watch for 'bad form.'

Such is life though, the backstabbing has occured and like so many misunderstandings, somebody got burned in the process, which I greatly regret: Googlie.

[Hercules]

As the incident is passed I reckon this and the Resignation thread should now be locked or notice given that it will be locked by a certain time/date.

[Corellion]

Originally posted by FlameFlash
Flubber, Herc, and all PEACE members have learned something it seems others have already known, but what I think has gotten Flubber's goat the most is that he will feel as though any/all members of CyCon are dishonorable in other areas besides this game, which may make even their general postings on other threads here suspect and less fun for all parties involved.

I'm sorry, but you've crossed the line. One of the integral parts of this game is roleplaying, and that's what we in the CyCon, because none of us are very experienced PBEMers, have been having the most fun with. As has been stated before by Maniac and Drogue, moving to personal insults, whether explicit or implied, is not an appropriate thing to do. We did not know we were doing anything wrong. The majority seems to have ruled that we have done nothing wrong. And yet you imply that we are untrustworthy in real life!?!?!?. Please, don't. regardless of how you feel about us in game, I think we deserve more than this.

[jtsisyoda]

Corellion, I think and hope you misunderstood. I thought Flameflash was only speculating on a worst case scenario, where Flubber might distrust people outside this game. I didn't interpret that as an assertion that anyone was actually untrustworthy.

[Maniac]

And they are surprised we've broken the pact...

[Drogue]

Originally posted by FlameFlash
I agree 'bad form' and all that, and the mere fact that the CyCon are now known as being untrustworthy RP world-wide and that nobody can take their word seriously in-game should be enough punishment IMHO.

As you know this particular issue with PEACE is very different to other issues. If what was written in Flubbers first post was the whole story, I would agree that it was a backstab. However he has left out our explanations that we PMed to him (and I presume posted on the PEACE forum) and has also left out other incidents, and how rocky our relationship is. That is understandable of course, being that you can give your side and we cannot. However that statement you make would only be true without our side. I hope all factions can make their decision regarding our trustworthiness, and the way we acted, when they hear our side too.

Originally posted by FlameFlash
Flubber, Herc, and all PEACE members have learned something it seems others have already known, but what I think has gotten Flubber's goat the most is that he will feel as though any/all members of CyCon are dishonorable in other areas besides this game, which may make even their general postings on other threads here suspect and less fun for all parties involved.

That seems a little strange to me. Whatever is done in game is in character, and does not reflect the personalities of anyone. Whatever someone does in game affects how I perceived them in game, but does not affect what I think of them out of game. That is what got me so upset about the insults and accusations. Whatever you may think I have done in game should not be taken out of game and involve personal attacks.

Originally posted by FlameFlash
No matter if that opinion is fair or not, or if members of the CyCon care or not, that may be the case for some members of the PEACE now.

I think that would be a shame. IMHO anything done in game, that is inside the rules, is in character and should stay in game.

Originally posted by FlameFlash
The only thing we can do from now on, though, is create something like what I mentioned. An 'I'm not here' thread, so that communications will not be 'lost' as easily.

I agree completely. However it may not be that the person is absent for a specific amount of time, it may merely be that theyb have not come onto the forum that often. That is why I agree with Kody's proposals that all communiques should be sent to both the Ambassador and turn player, and preferably Googlie as well.

Originally posted by Flubber
Also it was about a week before that the cycon had instructed me to send diplomatic communications to the individual in question. This came from a PM where I believe I mentioned TRADING the tech in question.

As as communication had always been sent to both the External Affairs Function and the Prime Function, we expected that to continue. We cannot assure that our External Affairs Function will be online, active and able to tell the Prime Function before the Prime Function plays the turn. Therefore unless he has a copy, he may not know the latest developments.

Originally posted by Flubber
I believe a member of your own faction resigned over this matter.

That was not just over that issue, AFAIK. He had not been the most active member, although he had contributed much good stuff, and had been not happy for a while. It is true he did not know of what we did, which is of course his decision. I don't think he believed it was a cheat, I think he just didn't like the way we did things, and the final straw was that he did not agree with what we did.

Originally posted by Flubber
I could write " This tech is not to be accepted unless you send 50 ec in the commbox. It is ONLY preaccepted for ease of communication since you will discover the tech otherwise yourself and it is impossible for me to set out the deal that we want from our side of the diplo box"

There is no way any deal could only be done if it a tech was sent pre-accepted than if it was not. Remember that diplomatic actions that have been accepted in another turn take place before your own research.

If you put a tech in the dip box, asking for ec in return, and do not accept it, then send it to the next faction, they can put the ec down and accept it. You can then accept it in your turn, and the deal goes through before they research their tech, so they get 2 techs on 1 turn. If you send it pre-accepted, they have to accept it on their side, so their research goes through first. Therefore there is no point that a deal could be only done if it was sent pre-accepted.

Originally posted by Hercules
As the incident is passed I reckon this and the Resignation thread should now be locked or notice given that it will be locked by a certain time/date.

I agree.

[Kody]

that unlike most standard PBEM the Googliegod or whomever the CMN must remain silent totally and simply watch for 'bad form.'

I think that in itself is a shame. A silent CMN is an inactive CMN...

[johndmuller]

As to Cap'n Flubber, in his RL profession, they get paid to be distrustful and to be distrusted, so I imagine his skin is thick enough to handle some of the slings and arrows that have been flying around here. I suspect his problem would be more like having the feeling he is at work, even when he comes here to play.

Not all of us have thick skins, however, so something that is relatively mild to some, might be highly insulting to someone else and there is no rule that says that people with thin skins can't have sharp tongues or any of the other combinations of the two, so it is easy to see how talk can get out of hand in such a diverse group, and that without even talking about culture and language subtlties.

Unfortunately, the other people in our factions are also getting dragged into some of this stuff merely by association. It's pretty hard to help, because noone knows what's going on inside the other factions, only what people choose to post outside, and what happens in the game itself. People who don't bother to post out here and/or people who disagree with the majority opinion or with their factions actions, or even people who seem to be members of the various factions, but who are retired, gone, totally inactive, or whatever, perhaps even DL's or spies, all of these people can get tarred with the same brush as the people who might deserve it, or at least the ones who might be reasonably responsible for the controversial behavior, statements or whatever.

We all need to bear this in mind, both in taking care not to drag our own factionmembers names through the mud of our actions and words and also taking care to not generalize across a whole faction what may be the words and/or actions of only a few.

On another theme, I hope that someone over in the Consciousness is maintaining a history of the roleplaying that Corellion referred to in his post. I would be delighted to be able to read it some day and to be finally able to understand the logical connections that must be in there somewhere since they are the Cycon , but which are so elusive and ephemeral when viewed from the outside.

[Snowflake]

Last night I wrote a message calling for the end of this heated discussion but unfortunately my internet connection was broken and the message was lost. I couldn't get on until not long ago. Anyway, I was kind of surprised that this discussion was still going on.

What I wanted to say last night was that I think the PEACE had been acting rather nicely. Captain Flubber had expressed his view without abusing any accusations. They have also expressed their acceptance to the ruling repetitively. Also, the CyCons have been making great effort to comply with the CMN's request not to respond with game related information. I think both sides are worth of commending. Of course there would be some misunderstanding brought about as any other heated discussion would. But I was hoping that we could agree to some points, while agree to disagree in other aspects. I hope nobody would feel the need to continue the heated discussion which we know could very possibly brought more heated discussions and perhaps more misunderstandings.

So anyway, I want to say that if anybody cares, please follow me to the rec commons. I will buy a jar of xenorums for every captains and functions.

[GeneralTacticus]

Padlocked by CMN request.