Zero Tolerance or just zero common sense? - Page 2

Oerdin · October 15, 2003, 13:02

The administrators should spend much more time thinking about the intent of a certain policy and then think up ways they can help this intent instead of hinder the intent. Clearly, the plicy was to prevent illegal drug use and not to stop choking asthmatics from recieving the medications which were already perscribed to her. The boy wasn't trying to get his girlfriend high he was trying to prevent her from choking to death and he did it using the one thing which could prevent that.

Q Classic · October 15, 2003, 13:04

zero tolerance works.

i mean, we stopped that girl from pushing midol on other girls, because midol causes mensturation--and we don't want that in our schools.

that first grader who kiss a girl? stopped him too. we had to teach him that kissing can be a sexual crime, and thereby stopped him from ever being a sexual offender ever again.

we also stopped a young girl who might have grown up to be a terrorist if we hadn't caught her and told her that a keychain with a <1" diameter slinky on the end could be used as a weapon.

see? zero tolerance works. i don't know why you guys keep pointing out these so-called failures. i call them successes.

Buck Birdseed · October 15, 2003, 13:13

And of course while time and resources are spent on this kind of thing other types of crime prevention suffer. In Stockholm the police (in the name of "zero tolerance") have special detachment dealing with the huge societal menace of Illegal Posters Advertising Small-Scale Art Events, while (say) bicycle thefts aren't even given a second glance.

Ben Kenobi · October 15, 2003, 13:27

Quote:

No. The nurse would be required to either contact the child's parents and have them bring the medicine to the school or call paramedics.

Why have a school nurse?

As for homeschooling, preaching to the choir.

oedo · October 15, 2003, 14:21

Quote:

I believe that sometimes you have to break the law to do a good thing, and when caught you will have to pay. Opportunity cost and all...

next time, no one will save the girl´s, life because anyone who could help her fears a punishment and runs away.

another example: someone smells smoke in his neighbour´s appartment. he believes there´s a fire and rings at the door. no one opens. next calls the fire brigade.
later it turns out there was no fire and the man gets fined for calling the fire brigade.
if you really believe this is ok, better think twice, where this kind of ruling could lead to. next time, when there´s really a fire, the man would rather let his neighbours flat burn, because the laws want it so.

Guynemer · October 15, 2003, 14:31

This is what our society has wrought. We're so obsessed with being "tough on crime" and "tough on drugs", that politicians announce "Zero Tolerance" and people give them standing ovations.

It's not only the school board and administators who aren't thinking. We put these people in power, and they instituted these policies because they are popular. By being "zero tolerance on drugs," you'll get a lot further in your career than the guy who isn't.

We get the government we deserve.

EDIT: grammar

Caligastia · October 15, 2003, 14:57

Exactly. Sounding tough is more important than solving the problem.

Guynemer · October 15, 2003, 15:15

We're not supposed to agree with each other, Cali.

Quick, post something obnoxious, before the world falls off its axis. (Though we're still in danger from a potential Cubs-BoSox WS...)

Japher · October 15, 2003, 15:57

Yeah, and I'm not suppose to be disagreeing with Cali... What is this world coming to?

Sarxis · October 15, 2003, 16:22

Wisdom has left this generation.

Sprayber · October 15, 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Why have a school nurse?

As for homeschooling, preaching to the choir.

When i was in the 4th grade i got two fingers caught in a wooden door at school. I sat in the nurses office for three hours bleeding before they decided it was time to call my mom. Most of what I remember from that day is my mom cussing the principle for not calling her sooner or getting me some medical attention. I had never knew my mom could say such words .

Nubclear · October 15, 2003, 16:51

Zero common sense.

tinyp3nis · October 15, 2003, 17:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Japher

In order to a good deed the kid had to break a "law". He has to pay now. No one ever said one good deed gets another, it just deserves it.

I believe that sometimes you have to break the law to do a good thing, and when caught you will have to pay. Opportunity cost and all...

Please Note: I did say that the policy should be reevaluated because of this incident.

What end will it serve to have the kid take the punishment? Who will benefit? The society? I don't think so. The problem with any zero tolerance is generalizing. Are you guilty of this too? I know that in _some_ cases upholding stupid law and sacrificing someone would work for some greater end, but not in this case imo. I don't understand who or what could possibly benefit from this.

Japher · October 15, 2003, 19:11

Quote:

What end will it serve to have the kid take the punishment? Who will benefit? The society? I don't think so

Hopefully society will benefit, as now people will look at this case and reevaluate the stupid policy.

MrFun · October 15, 2003, 19:36

There should be zero tolerance for Coke consumption in schools . . . . .

Q Classic · October 15, 2003, 19:59

wonderful, so we have to have a sacrificial lamb now, japher?

and by zero tolerance for coke consumption, mr fun, you mean zero tolerance for anything fizzy, right? including pepsi coke?

tinyp3nis · October 15, 2003, 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Japher

Hopefully society will benefit, as now people will look at this case and reevaluate the stupid policy.

Surely this was not the intention of the school. You said the school did the right thing. If I set somebodys house on fire with the sole purpose to kill him and in the process he wakes up because of the fire and flees outside to avoids a crashing meteor or whatever, my actions have saved him from it. It still wasn't the right thing to do.

The law is only as stupid as the people who enforce it.

Berzerker · October 15, 2003, 20:31

Why blame the school? It's the law, blame the legislators.

Japher -

Quote:

In order to a good deed the kid had to break a "law". He has to pay now. No one ever said one good deed gets another, it just deserves it.

Justice is about what is deserved and what is not, so if the laws ignore justice, the laws are immoral. We need only look at the immorality of legalised slavery and the Fugitive Slave Act to see that the "rules are rules" argument is flawed. If you had to drive someone to the hospital and exceed the speed limit, would you say the cops should ticket/arrest you? However, you did make a valid point - what if the medicine was different and the girl suffered a reaction and died? Sure, unlikely in this case, but still a possibility. On the other hand, what if she died and the boy's inhaler would have saved her? The "law" says he couldn't legally save her, but should it say he could legally "kill" her albeit accidently? If she died because his medicine was different, should the school be sued or should the boy face criminal charges or a lawsuit? We can't have it both ways...if the scool should butt out, then the school should be exempt from the results. If the boy tried to help her and she died from a reaction, the boy should be exempt too...

When we get to the point for where people are held liable to criminal or civil charges/suits for doing what appears to be the right thing, we've lost something morally. That's why many doctors are reluctant to help people outside of their practice where they are protected by malpractice insurance.

Dis · October 15, 2003, 20:48

stories like these make me want to go out and kill a whole bunch of stupid school officials

Guynemer · October 15, 2003, 21:04

Blame the legislators, blame the public, but blame the school officials too. "I was just following orders" doesn't cut it when you are obviously in the wrong.

Jules · October 15, 2003, 21:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
stories like these make me want to go out and kill a whole bunch of stupid school officials

That's the spirit, Diss! Fight da power!

tinyp3nis · October 15, 2003, 22:55

"But the school nurse said it was a violation of the district's no-tolerance drug policy, and reported Kivi to the campus police. He was suspended for three days and charged with delivering a dangerous drug. He faced expulsion and being sent to juvenile detention on juvenile drug charges. "
Well, more than the schools fault, it is the idiotic nurse. I see no reason at all for him/her not to let this pass. Was the kids going to rat him/her out?

I still doubt that the school had no power over the consequenses...
I have had my fill with "the rule" is better than common sense nurses personally too.

Lancer · October 15, 2003, 23:28

NO! NO! NO!

Hang everyone involved, except the kids.

***Continues to plan escape to the Philippines, but with more ungency***

MrFun · October 16, 2003, 01:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Q Cubed
wonderful, so we have to have a sacrificial lamb now, japher?

and by zero tolerance for coke consumption, mr fun, you mean zero tolerance for anything fizzy, right? including pepsi coke?

No, only that krap called Coca-Cola should be banned with the zero tolerance policy.

Jules · October 16, 2003, 01:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
NO! NO! NO!

Hang everyone involved, except the kids.

***Continues to plan escape to the Philippines, but with more ungency***

I think Lancer has the best suggestion so far, although personally I'd avoid the Philippines.

Ben Kenobi · October 16, 2003, 01:58

What's not to like about the Phillipines?

Warm weather year-round on islands full of fanatical Catholics.

Where else comes that close to paradise?

Jules · October 16, 2003, 02:02

Random kidnappings by Muslim guerrillas come to mind.

Ben Kenobi · October 16, 2003, 02:10

But that's what American marines are for.

MichaeltheGreat · October 16, 2003, 03:00

And they'll do a bang up job of reuniting you with your decapitated head.

Sikander · October 16, 2003, 04:01

"Good news Guillermo, we found your head!"

These zero thinking policies are moronic. What's happened to our schools? We spend 4 times as much per student in inflation adjusted dollars than we did in 1970, and the results are significantly worse. Part of that money has gone to increase teacher pay in what has been a "woman's" profession, so lets assume that half of that money was justified to compete with other professions for "especially" female employees. That leaves us spending twice as much for worse academic results, zero administrator responsibility policies, no gym classes for our obese student bodies etc. We desperately need to issue vouchers so that parents can choose between brain dead public schools, religious fanatic schools and money grubbing private schools. It couldn't be worse than it is now.