RED FRONT v 1.4 *****

Leonidas · August 19, 2000, 20:07

I was feeling bored yesterday, so I thought I'd give Red Front v 1.4 a try. I played and beat Red Front versions 1.2 and 1.3, so I always thought v 1.4 would just be more of the same. Right? Wrong

I am currently in Dec 1941, and the invading Hun has surrounded Moscow, has started to bomb Leningrad, and is approaching Stalingrad. Thank goodness for winter! What a scenario.

From the clanking of tank treads, the scream of Stuka dive-bombers, to the yells of SS infantry, this scenario (once again) has kept me on the edge of my seat. I applaud the improvements: better sounds, more German troops, tough fighting for the major objectives. Well done Captain Nemo. If there are still any humans on this planet who have not played Red Front yet, all I can say is: What are you waiting for!?

I am really looking forward to "Second Front". Any indication when it will be released? This scenario has set a new standard in Civ II scenario design. It is a very focused total war scenario. I realize this has all been said before - but it is a brilliant scenario

My wish list for future scenarios (based on this concept):

1) Battle of the Bulge

2) Battle of Britain

3) Operation Market Garden

4) The War in North Africa (Rommel's drive for the Suez Canal and the rich oil fields).

Any other total war scenarios worth making about WWII?

Keep up the excellent work Nemo and to all the rest of you scenario designers. I have been playing all of your scenarios for a long time (and many are truly excellent), and ALL of you are the ones that continue to make Civ II the great game that it is.

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

[This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited August 19, 2000).]

klesh · August 20, 2000, 07:47

Yes, RedFront is a masterpiece. My current game has Berlin about to fall in April '45. I wanted the Hitler death pop-up to be historically accurate, timewise.
Leonidas, if the Krauts get to be too much, are you aware of the fact that you can move those "Fortified Positions", and "Fortified Batteries" by building a city over it, moving in a freighter, and shipping it off into a seiged city, making it almost inpenetrable. But, this will really make the scenario too easy as you hardly need to defend those cities. Most (including me) call it a cheat. Hey, one thing though...Notice the Americans, please tell us how much of a role they play in your game. They'll show up in Italy first, then in Western Germany. On my game they've managed to get a good sized army goin', but again for some reason they aren't attacking the Germans. Perhaps the Shermans won't attack because the computer calculates the odds of winning vs a TigerII

As far as Second Front, I asked Nemo a couple of weeks ago, he said that it was taking longer than expected, and he hoped to get it out by September....*sigh* It's hard to wait, but you know it'll be worth it.

Hey, in your list you forgot to mention a house to house battle for Stalingrad.Chuikov vs Paulus. That'd be sweet.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

Leonidas · August 21, 2000, 01:44

Yes you are right about the Battle of Stalingrad - that would be nice to see. It would make an excellent scenario.

I'm playing this version of Red Front without building any new cities or using any cheats. I want to see if I can survive and then take the battle to the Hun's own territory. It's a close one right now - I'm entering June 1942 and I've held the Germans at Moscow; Leningrad is getting creamed from massive bombing runs, and the Germans are preparing a major offensive towards Stalingrad - I'm churning out fighters, Cossacks and tanks, and I'm trying to move those Siberian troops to the front just as fast as I can.

If "Second Front" has ben delayed it's because I know Nemo wants to get everything right - everyone is waiting for this scenario to hit the internet - so he doesn't want to disappoint us. Based on the work on Red Front, I know it will be a masterpiece

Great work on your battle and timing in your taking of Berlin. What a battle, eh?

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Leonidas · August 21, 2000, 13:00

July 1942:

The situation looks grim

It looks like Leningrad may fall - I'm trying desperately to fight my way south from Murmansk to relieve the city - but it does not look good...

The central Moscow front is secure...

However, the German offensive in the south is proceeding full tilt. The Hun has taken Rostov and Sevastopol, has crossed the Don, and has managed to sweep south of Stalingrad, obviously headed for the Caucasus. There is desperate fighting everywhere...

In the meantine my Siberian troops are having a wonderful holiday in the mountains, admiring the views and young ladies, still wondering if they should catch the next train to the front to join their fellow comrades in impaling themselves on the German war machine...

Nemo, anytime I find myself in a desperate, dare I say, even a losing, situation in a scenario, that is a time for celebration. Especially after playing the earlier versions of this scenario. I thought it was going to be a cake-walk - not so! You have done your homework... It's going to take everything I know to pull this one out of the frying pan...

Stay tuned...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Xin Yu · August 22, 2000, 13:02

Leonidas: Please define what are cheats and what are not.

Building new cities are intended in the Ural region starting winter 41-42.

C0ckney · August 22, 2000, 13:37

I have tried to do red front without building new cities and let me tell you its bloody hard!

By sept '43 I have pushed them back from Moscow and Leningrad and have even liberated estonia!

My partisans have helped my take Minsk and Gomel and other partisans are blocking German supply lines to the north and central fronts, the only problems come in the south where I cannot dislodge the Germans from Rostov (which I foolishly aloud them to capture in Jun '43) but I have help the crimean peninsular and am presently planing a to encircle the Germans between Rostov and Kiev and wear them down slowly

I expect to get into Germany (that is Germany as it was pre WW2) by Mid '45 but I doubt I will capture Berlin before June,

has anyone maganged to capture Berlin by June '45 without building new cities?

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"If Hitler had invaded hell I would at least have made a favorable reference to the devil"
Wiston Churchil upon hearing of the Invasion of Russia

"You won the election, but I won the count"
Anastasio Somoza

Sortub · August 22, 2000, 17:22

Leonidas-

For what it's worth, I'd like to echo the other posters and note that a variety of threads about RF 1.4 have been posted in the last few months on this board. A "search" command should cover it.

As far as the "cheats," I would content that covering fortified positions and batteries with cities and possibly moving them is not a "cheat" b/c:

1) The Germans can bribe them, so you should be able to protect them, and:

2) The German subs and cruisers can linger on the mines protecting the Norwegian coast with impunity.

This topic has been debated a lot.

From what I gather, Nemo agrees with the above position.

******

On a somewhat related note, I must vent:

Fellow "Red Front"ers, I am facing a terrible dilemma regarding my computer's capacity. I have splurged and recently ordered "Test of Time" and "X Wing/Tie Fighter Collector's Series," with joystick, for my PC. Problem is I won't have enough memory to hold all three safely. So, it looks like I must uninstall one of the Civ games, temporarily at least, to fly the X-Wing.

BTW, I know Nemo has discussed this, but it could be great someday to have a ToT version of Red Front. Additional unit and terrain slots, couple with the animation, could make it really fun. Just a thought.

Beto Benedetti · August 22, 2000, 20:26

Hmmm, let's analyze the beginning of this thread:

quote:

I was feeling bored yesterday

ergo:

quote:

thought I'd give Red Front v 1.4 a try

Moral of the story: the human genre will never cease to amaze ol'Benedetti

On a more serious note, here's a suggestion for you RedFronters: ask MarkG to drop the HAC forum (which nobody uses) and put up a RF forum instead. Some people would really appreciate it

Leonidas · August 22, 2000, 20:32

Thanks to everyone for your very kind and helpful comments

I'm trying to fight this battle just as they did in the real war; that is, no building new cities, moving fortifications, etc.
I'm going to try to win it just with the cities I have, although I will be building industries for cities

I'm also not ready to start this over again, either.

It is January 1943, and in an interesting turn of events I have managed to take a Finnish city, counter-attacked along the Moscow Front and have managed to re-take 4 Soviet cities.

My Siberian forces arrived just west of Stalingrad, and I have counter-attacked with them in a head-on collision with the German forces just outside the oil fields. Very bitter fighting is now taking place for the fate of the oil fields...

So I'm still hanging in there, despite suffering astronomical losses...

Maybe Mother Russia can yet turn the tide before Spring arrives...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Leonidas · August 23, 2000, 00:12

November 1942:

Both Leningrad and Stalingrad fell after very heavy fighting

Very little stands in the way of the German take-over of the oil fields...

I'm planning a major counter-offensive in the north, but I fear that it may be too little, too late...

What a scenario! I didn't expect to have such a tough fight on my hands...

To you other Red Front players: Who has played version 1.4 with NO cheats and has NOT built new cities AND has won this scenario? I would appreciate any helpful tips. It looks like I may lose this scenario, and I am looking forward to playing it again.

Captain Nemo: You love to punish us poor gamers, don't you...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

PolarisGL · August 23, 2000, 00:37

http://members.xoom.com/civpolaris/index.html

All the strategies you need for Red Front should be at this site.

PolarisGL · August 23, 2000, 00:40

And I've been considering making an Operation Market Garden scenario; I have not yet tested my art on World War II.

Xin Yu · August 23, 2000, 16:19

There are enough cities in the far east to improve so it is not necessary to build cities in order to win.

There are two ways to hold on the front during the first six months. Both are very expensive, hence a lot of city improvements will be sold.

One is to build AA guns and KV-1s and set up defense. The tech for KV-1 can be obtained as early as August 41, hence by September KV-1s should be built. A typical city building sequence is: barracks in July (i.e., start in June), AA battery (front city) or Cavalry (other cities) in August, KV-1 in September.

Another is to build Bombers and Il-2s for counter attack, while building a lot of Cossack Cavalries for cheap defense. Bombers can be built in batches in September 41, and Il-2s in October. The Stukas will try to attack bombers and stuck in the air, thus your cities will be safe from air raid. Il-2s can kill most enemy units easily. A typical city building sequence is: Calvary or barracks in July, Airport in August, Bomber in September, Il-2 in October.

It is not likely that you have the resources for doing both, so you must make a decision early. But no matter what you do, concentrate your forces to certain big cities and give up the others. If you can hold 3-4 big cities (kiev, Smolensk, Rostov, Sevastopol) West of Leningrad-Moscow-Stalingrad line then you'll be in a very good shape when winter comes.

41-42 Winter counter attack: accrue thirty KV-1s and land them next to a Germen city (using transports to ferry them there). Also land some partisans, katyushas, and a couple of labor brigades. Use labor brigades to build a fortress, then wait for the enemy to through themselves against you. The next turn you'll be able to occupy the city.
You'll be able to recover some cities along the Dniep river and set up defense there.

42 Summer: your bombers and Il-2s will again slaughter the enemy, and now you'll be able to build LA-5 fighters to kill enemy bombers in the air and protect your cities. Further more, your units can be ferried back and forth along the rivers quickly. It should be easier than the previous year.

Leonidas · August 23, 2000, 17:03

Xin Yu: Thanks for your very helpful advice

You mention some interesting strategies that I never thought about before...

May 1943:

In the north from Murmansk I am driving towards Leningrad.

Just north of Moscow, I am counter-attacking and driving the Germans back to Novgorod and Leningrad.

All along the Central Moscow Front I am counter-attacking. I have liberated 6 more Soviet cities, including Smolensk and Minsk. But my offensive is slowly losing steam...

Stalingrad Front: Both the German and Soviet forces are smashing head-on into each other for control of Stalingrad and the oil fields. Dozens and dozens of infantry and tank units on both sides have been obliterated in this meat-grinder. Yet I have been unable to re-take the city...

Now that summer is here, I fear that the German airforce (Stukas) will once again play havoc on my badly thinned out ranks...

Here's hoping that I survive the coming German offensive

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Xin Yu · August 23, 2000, 17:35

Actually my winter tactic will not work

. Winter landing costs 2 moving points so the labor brigades will not be able to build fortresses on the same turn. You must first land the labor brigades on a road square 3 squares away from a German city, hoping that you won't be discovered, and use 2 turns to move towards the city along the road while building fortresses on the way (and have other units join them). Or, you can start from one of your own cities, like Kiev and Rostov, or from an existing fortress square (not likely to be un-occupied, so you need to use cruisers to bombard and clean the square first).

Leonidas · August 24, 2000, 20:36

July 1943:

I'm still hanging in there. My troops are close to capturing Novgord, and then it's on the offensive to liberate Leningrad...

The Battle of Kursk has begun. The Tigers and Panthers are playing havoc with my forces in the area...

Stalingrad: I managed to re-take Stalingrad, but in a violent counter-offensive, the Germans re-took the city

Now only the city of Grozny stands in the way of German domination of the oil-rich Caucasus...

Question: What triggers US convoy system? Is this an event trigger? Or do I have to research something in order to access the US city just above the UK one?

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Leonidas · August 25, 2000, 11:41

Nov 1943:

In a series of brutal and costly battles I have managed to re-take the cities of Leningrad, Novgorod, Luga and Stalingrad, as well as several smaller ones.

It has been a brutal slugfest... but slowly my forces have been gaining the upper hand...

A word on "cheats":

Any cheat, such as moving fortified positions into key cities to prevent their capture is really destroying the whole purpose of this wonderful scenario. By not cheating, by trying to play and fight with just the cities you start with in the game, really captures the grinding give-and-take struggle that characterized this war in the east.

It has been a long time since a game has made me feel the highs and depths of emotion as my rag-tag forces have had to come from almost certain defeat, to regain the initiative, and then to actually start to win, by re-taking Soviet cities. It took almost two years before I was able to re-take Leningrad. The thrill and satisfaction of doing so, is completely lost if I "place a fortified fort in it" to prevent its loss.

The whole purpose of Red Front, is for the player to experience the desperate, and at times, hopeless, struggle that occurred in the east. Believe me, if you play without cheats, you will have a desperate fight on your hands; and with it the thrill of victory, and the anquish of defeat...

My forces have come back from almost total defeat, and have re-taken Leningrad and Stalingrad. I can't tell you the satisfaction that has given me. It took quite a while, and I lost many units, but in a sense, it helped me to realize what the struggle in the Great Patriotic War must have been like.

To truly appreciate this scenario, it has to be played without cheats; and building fortified positions in cities is a cheat. So the AI cheats a bit - well it is still the AI - you are the thinking player - not the AI - improvise and strategize, and beat it using your wits.

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
[This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited August 25, 2000).]

Leonidas · August 27, 2000, 04:17

July 1944:

In a major offensive along the entire front, I have managed to liberate 13 more cities! My victorious, but battered forces now stand at the doorsteps of Poland and Germany...

It has been a long time since I played a game in which I felt such emotional highs and lows. This is a tribute to the designer and to the playtesters...

What a wonderful scenario...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Wangshibo · August 27, 2000, 09:05

For what it's worth, I found it crucial to pillage just about every road, railroad, and anything else there was time for west of the Moscow/Dniepr line, and use partisans to finish the job. Then used LOTS of navy types to keep Sevastopol free. Labor brigades turned all the land surrounding Leningrad and as many of the choke points as I could manage into minefields. A couple of new cities turned up just east of Stalingrad. And tanks, tanks, tanks from every city in the east. Industrial ex-siege cities built the Shturmovok. This was sufficient to beat the Germans conclusively out of Russia, but I was never quite up to expanding further than poland. Or beating those bloody finns.

Any suggestions for what I was doing wrong?

Case · August 27, 2000, 18:27

Pillaging all those roads must have really slowed down your counter offencive!
Personally, I never bother with minefields- those Labour Brigades are better employed building factories and roads on the oilfields

Kull · August 27, 2000, 19:52

I think "road pillaging" is considered a cheat in this scenario. If you think about it, taking a few hundred miles of road and returning it to raw countryside in one month just wasn't feasible at that time (not counting the spring thaw!)

If you were playing against a human, at least they're smart enough to rebuild, but the AI is far too stupid.

Still, there are right ways and wrong ways to destroy a road network. A few rules of thumb:

1) Pillage ever other square. This effectively shuts down the network, but rebuilding is MUCH faster, since placing a road in one square automatically links three.

2) Don't pillage in rough terrain unless you absolutely have to. Leave the roads in hills, mountain, forest, and even minefields alone. It just takes too long to rebuild in that type of terrain, and usually you can still employ the "every other square" tactic by pillaging only the grassland/plains roads.

Wangshibo · August 27, 2000, 20:21

Thanks! I think I felt that partisans 'should' be going around blowing up bridges and stuff, but then I'm a bit romantic about these things. I restarted a while ago and I'm now in Spring 1944, and I'm already in west poland with a large force of tanks and a couple of shturmoviks.

Still can't beat those finns...

Eternal · August 27, 2000, 22:27

quote:

The whole purpose of Red Front, is for the player to experience the desperate, and at times, hopeless, struggle that occurred in the east. Believe me, if you play without cheats, you will have a desperate fight on your hands; and with it the thrill of victory, and the anquish of defeat...

Actually it may not be true to say Stalin ever felt that his defeat was possible.

Leonidas · August 28, 2000, 02:13

Eternal: Stalin never felt that his defeat was possible? Oh, no? It makes for very interesting study, when we read about accounts of the struggle in the east up until November 1941. By this time whole Soviet armies had been destroyed or captured (some put the number at 5,000,000 soldiers lost in the opening weeks of the invasion). Tens of thousands of planes and tanks had been destroyed. And the undefeated German armies stood within a heart's beat of Moscow. If not for some incredibly stupid decisions by Hitler (such as diverting several armoured divisions from the central Moscow front, delaying Barbarossa, remaining fixated with Leningrad and Stalingrad, brutalizing the people in the Ukraine even though they welcomed the Germans as liberators, and not getting Japan to attack the Soviet Union in the Far East to keep those 40 elite Siberian Divisions tied down, etc), things could very well have been different.

When Barbarossa first started, Stalin was in such shock, he actually locked himself away for days, before he emerged to give his country any type of leadership.

In fact the entire world expected the Soviet Union to fold within one year of the German invasion.

The opening few months of the German BlitzKrieg is captured extremely well in this scenario; the loss of so many units and cities is very disheartening. It makes one realize what the real leaders and soldiers must have felt when they encountered the same things at the beginning of the war. This is what makes this scenario so special. It captures all the highs and lows of this epic struggle...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
[This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited August 28, 2000).]

Leonidas · August 28, 2000, 02:20

Wangshibo: You don't have to beat the Finns. If you're in the Spring of 1944, you should be able to negotiate a cease-fire with them. Go to the diplomacy screen and request an audience with the Finns. They should immediately offer a cease-fire with you

If you accept, that should solve at least one major headache for you

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

The ANZAC · August 28, 2000, 08:31

Well, I signed a peace treaty with the Finns and they broke it 2 months later! Now I'm finishing up what the Winter War started.

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"We sought to throw a raging lion ashore; what we got was a stranded whale!" -Winston Curchill on the Battle of Anzio

"Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?" -Juvenal

"I can walk!!" -Dr. Strangelove

Case · August 28, 2000, 18:20

Leonidas, I've read that Stalin was so shocked by the German attack that when Beria and Molotov visited him in the Datcha he had fled to, he thought that they were coming to arrest him

I think that Stalin did try to put out peace feelers to the Germans via the Bulgarian goverment in 1941, but the Bulgarians refused to act as go-betweens.

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith
[This message has been edited by Case (edited August 28, 2000).]

Leonidas · August 29, 2000, 04:31

ANZAC: When did you make that peace treaty? I made peace with the Finns in the Spring of 1944, and it has remained solid ever since. I think you may have to wait until a certain date...

Case: That is an interesting piece of history you mentioned. Those were dark days, indeed...

April 1945:

My Soviet forces have liberated all of the Soviet Union, and they now stand poised on the Polish and German borders.

I have met with fanatical resistance from German forces, and they have been hammering away at me for the past couple of months.

I am building up my forces, and come the Spring, I intend to launch a great offensive to drive back the defending Germans and seize the capitol of Germany: Berlin.

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Captain Nemo · August 29, 2000, 06:59

It is very nice to see that my scenario still has some life left in it... So many scenarios just dissappear into oblivion after they are released which is quite disheartening to the designers who spent so many hours on them.

I am thankful to all you scenario players who have kept Red Front alive for this long!

The ANZAC · August 29, 2000, 09:11

Leonidas- The Finns were asking for peace in the spring of '44, but I wanted to retake the Karelia, so I waited and then I signed. 2 months later the sneak-attacked and luckily their attack forces got wiped out, and then I launched a major counter-offensive and now I have every single city, but Kuopio and that is surronded and empty, I just ran out of movement points.

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"We sought to throw a raging lion ashore; what we got was a stranded whale!" -Winston Curchill on the Battle of Anzio

"Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?" -Juvenal

"I can walk!!" -Dr. Strangelove