Thread Tools
Old October 17, 2003, 03:18   #31
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Thanks to democracy, pillage is a much less straightforward art today than before

Wouldn't you want them to pay reparations as well ? We have a tremendous place to 'negociate' such 'agreement' in Versailles
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 04:40   #32
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
If the american people wanted this war so eagerly, why shouldn't they pay every cent of it with tax money? Certainly the Iraqi people didn't ask for it.
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 04:50   #33
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
Certainly the Iraqi people didn't ask for it.
Actually, many of them did. Kurds, Iraqi National Congress, etc...
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 05:19   #34
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Iraq National Congress? Whasn't that created (by US), AFTER the war?
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 05:22   #35
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
You're thinking of the provisional Iraqi government. The Iraqi National Congress was an organization of Iraqi ex-pats who lobbied for the overthrow of Hussein's regime, amongst other things.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 06:17   #36
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
The US taxpayers (well, some of them) elected a President who was set on war with Iraq from day one. Time to pay for that decision.

If this stands it probably just hastens the day that Iraqis elect(?) a nationalist and possibly fundamentalist government that promptly tells the US where to shove its loan.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 07:42   #37
uh Clem
King
 
uh Clem's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Born in the US; damned if I know where I live now
Posts: 1,574
Democrats...

Too cowardly to simply vote No; why is that not a surprise?
__________________
"When all else fails, a pigheaded refusal to look facts in the face will see us through." -- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett
uh Clem is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:10   #38
SnowFire
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
SnowFire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New York City, NY
Posts: 3,736
I can't believe it. All the talk about Bush being the one to go to war for oil, and it's the Democrats that actually do it.
SnowFire is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:12   #39
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
****ing democrats. They vote to deconstruct Iraq, but then vote to force the future Iraqi gov't to foot the bill for our corporate welfare.

Of course, they supported without objection 67 billion in military costs and the 500 million in the irrelevent search for Saddam.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:13   #40
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Shrub over the dems on (part of) this issue.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:17   #41
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Shrub over the dems on (part of) this issue.


You're not the only one.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:35   #42
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Quote:
Actually, many of them did. Kurds, Iraqi National Congress, etc...
They certainly didn't ask for the specific reconstruction agenda.

To a large extent, the contracts were offered in opposition to the interim governing council and public sentiment. For instance, we recently handed out a big fat contract to Jordan to train Iraqi police despite the strong objection of the IGC (who claimed it could be done by Iraqis for a third of the price).
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:48   #43
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
They certainly didn't ask for the specific reconstruction agenda.
That would probably be why I never said they did.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:54   #44
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
They didn't want the aspect of the war that we're forcing them to pay for. Ollie's point is valid.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 08:59   #45
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
I'm pretty sure Ollie meant that the Iraqis didn't want the war, not this specific aspect of the resconstruction, but believe what you want to. No need to argue over something so trivial.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 09:03   #46
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
I know what Ollie meant. But the point generalizes. No need to get defensive, I'm just clarifying.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 09:07   #47
Bosh
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Bosh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Hiding from the deadly fans
Posts: 5,650
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with Shrub over the dems on (part of) this issue.
Yeah I know, it causes my black anarchist heart so much pain but Bush is in the right here. I guess I can make myself feel better by being absolutely furious at Bush for not realizing this would happen and for the criminally low amounts of aid that he has given (and asked to be given) to Afghanistan for the last couple years after giving the Afghans extravagant promises while the war was still on.
__________________
Stop Quoting Ben
Bosh is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 09:23   #48
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Yeah, but right when I was getting excited about the dems starting to act marginally more responsible, they have to pull something evil like this.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 09:29   #49
Jon Miller
staff
ApolyCon 06 ParticipantsCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization II MultiplayerRise of Nations MultiplayerPtWDG Vox ControliC4DG Vox
OTF Moderator
 
Jon Miller's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 13,063
the reconstruction is the most important part of this whole deawlly

Jon Miller
__________________
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
Jon Miller is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 10:25   #50
Jac de Molay
Prince
 
Jac de Molay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit
Posts: 350
Quote:
Originally posted by SnowFire
I can't believe it. All the talk about Bush being the one to go to war for oil, and it's the Democrats that actually do it.
If I remember correctly, it was the Administration that, before the war, sold the notion of a reconstruction that was to be partially financed through oil revenues.

I don't see how they couldn't expect this to happen. Costs and financing of the reconstruction were grossly "misunderestimated", and it's coming back to bite 'em in the ass. Just desserts, I say.
__________________
"Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movements and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us." --MLK Jr.
Jac de Molay is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 11:23   #51
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
Just to make clear, this provision will be removed in conference. This was the dem's opportunity to register their displeasure at Bush, which they have done. But in actual fact, in the final law, this action doesn't mean anything.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
DanS is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 11:30   #52
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
What they could have done, instead, to stick it to the President and save us some money would be to cancel all the no bid contracts, and let the Irqais decide what needs to be taken care of, instead of the lobbyists.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 11:46   #53
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
Congress has no authority to cancel contracts. Not that the contractors would mind, they'd be owed liquidated damages and lost profits and not have to do a thing.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 12:11   #54
SnowFire
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
SnowFire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New York City, NY
Posts: 3,736
DanS: Could you elaborate? I thought that maybe the thing might just get vetoed, but then there's the question if there'll be ANY money for Iraq.

And I agree that I'm shocked that Bush was actually right in this case. Sure, his fault we had to make the decision, but at least he seems half-committed to doing the Reconstruction right.

I will be most curious to see what the Dem's presidential nominee has to say on this issue. I voted for Gore in 2000, but if they give us a short-sighted type who would ignore the rest of the world until the USA is a utopia, I may be voting Independent.
__________________
All syllogisms have three parts.
Therefore this is not a syllogism.
SnowFire is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 12:39   #55
DanS
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Deity
 
DanS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
Well, the House passed a measure that was $2 billion less than what Bush requested, but didn't include the loan provision. The Senate passed a measure that included Bush's full request (I think), but included the loan provision. The two versions will be be reconciled in the conference committee, which the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader will pack with people who want to give Bush what he wants.

The conference committee will reconcile the two bills so that Bush gets his full request without the loan provision. Then the House and Senate will have an up or down vote on the bill.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

Last edited by DanS; October 17, 2003 at 12:45.
DanS is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 13:00   #56
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
One could always argue that a more realistic assessment of the costs beforehand wouldn't lead to this sort of little problem.
Do you remember when **** Chaney was claiming the war plus recontruction could all be done for $50billion? Three times that has been reached and there is still no end in sight.

On the upside the Japanese have been very generous and have donated $1.5 billion towards the reconstruction of Iraq. Britain is only spending $300 million and the entire EU is only coughing up $200 million.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
Oerdin is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 13:43   #57
MichaeltheGreat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Apolyton Grand Executioner
 
MichaeltheGreat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
The Japanese are easily motivated in this case, due to their huge dependency on gulf oil. They will be very nice to whoever has it.

And Cheney was so blatantly full of ****, just on the warfighiting costs alone, that it's amazing to me he was never called on it. A full mechanized division in the field burns up an amazing amount of money on a monthly basis, then you multiply that out times all the other units, the USN and USAF assets, Marines, reserve callups, etc.

This latest bit in the triangle is an interesting development as well - the Iraqis actually showing themselves in platoon strength and going after small US units.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
MichaeltheGreat is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 23:45   #58
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
Quote:
The Japanese are easily motivated in this case, due to their huge dependency on gulf oil. They will be very nice to whoever has it.
Damn straight, and if the Chinese keep modernizing we're going to have them by the balls in a few years as well.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

Last edited by Drake Tungsten; October 18, 2003 at 03:43.
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old October 17, 2003, 23:55   #59
GePap
Emperor
 
GePap's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of the Big Apple
Posts: 4,109
As much as i hate this admin for lying through it'd teeth to sell this war, I agree that the Senate was wrong to make any of this money a loan. If you think the prez is speinding too much, cut the allocations back. Or leave them there, and endevour to kick this guy out.
__________________
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
GePap is offline  
Old October 18, 2003, 00:27   #60
Kirnwaffen
Warlord
 
Kirnwaffen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:41
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 281
Well, the vote means nothing, but it's symbolism is just plain disgusting. I can't really lay any blame on the administration in this instance. This is essentially the Senate punishing the Iraqi people for the fact that they didn't have enough balls to call the adminisitration on its blatantly rediculous figures in the first place. The truth is that the whole premise of Iraq paying its own reconstruction costs is altogether nonsensical. It seems rather obvious to me that, if you invade a sovereign nation, you bear the responsibility for the aftermath.
__________________
"Beauty is not in the face...Beauty is a light in the heart." - Kahlil Gibran
"The greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved; loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves" - Victor Hugo
"It is noble to be good; it is still nobler to teach others to be good -- and less trouble." - Mark Twain
Kirnwaffen is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:41.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team