HIVE diplomatic exchanges

DeathByTheSword · October 17, 2003, 11:39

so here we go...

Drogue do you want ask them for the trade of the techs or shall i do that in the private forum?

private forum:
http://www.voy.com/154401/

Edit from Maniac. Password: "voltogue"

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 11:46

I will. I have prepared a statment for them. If that is ok?

Phenix · October 17, 2003, 11:53

Yea, let's try out the new forum...

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 11:59

Indeed. Let the negotiating begin!

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 12:00

Also, we should post our explanation of the PEACE situation there too, in case they didn't get it.

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 12:05

I will email it to Voltaire and ask him to post it on their forum. We could post it on the Diplo board too if you wish.

Have sent this to Kody and Voltaire:

Quote:

Greetings Comrades Voltaire and Kody (I do not know your titles

)

I bring greetings from the Cybernetic Consciousness, and come before you as their Prime Function. I have left a message regarding diplomatic proposals on GooglieGod’s CyCon-Hive forum. Here is a copy of it:

Quote:

Greetings Comrade of the Hive.

I come before you as Prime Function of the Cybernetic Conciousness, and bring goodwill and glad tidings from the CyCon. I also bring a few proposals:

Firstly, would the Hive be amenable to a Treaty between our two factions?

Secondly, I propose a trade of technologies. We have Industrial Base, Social Psych and Doctrine: Initiative that we would be willing to trade for Doctrine: Loyalty, Ethical Calculus and Gene Splicing. What would be your opinion on that?

Thirdly, we believe you lack the Commlink for the Believers. We have that commlink, and would be willing to trade for PUTs commlink, which we believe you have?

I will have to ask my fellow CyCons, but it may also be possible to trade world maps or sign a Pact, if you are amenable?

I hope we can come to some agreements :-) If you wish to contact the CyCon by PM, please send it to DBTS, who is our External Affairs Function, and myself, as Prime Function. Whom should we address communiques to?

Friendly Greetings,
Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

PS. With regards to the PEACE affair, I have sent an email to Voltaire giving our side of the story. If you have the commlink of the PUT, could you pass it on to them, since we cannot legitimately contact them.

Could you please send me your email address so that I might send our side of the PEACE affair?

Yours,
Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

DeathByTheSword · October 17, 2003, 12:08

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 12:08

I can't see how it could hurt to post it there too.

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 12:21

Can Function Delta please edit [url=http://www.voy.com/154401/] this link into the first post in this forum?

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 12:21

Ok, will post.

DeathByTheSword · October 17, 2003, 12:46

they reacted possitve to the ideas of the trades...

DeathByTheSword · October 17, 2003, 12:47

Quote:

Greetings all functions of the Cybernetic Conciousness.

I am Comrade HongHu, a proud citizen of the Human Hive and the Hive Ambassador to the CyCon. It is indeed an honour to greet you. I would like to convey to you of Hive's desire for longlasting peace and friendship with you. I commend the CyCon's efficiency in coming up with a proposal. I will certainly bring this back to my comrades. I am very optimistic that we will be able to come back with a positive answer to your proposal.

To facilitating better communication, please direct all future official diplomatic messages to Kody our turn player as well as myself through PM or email. My email is hhu003 at mchsi.com.

Comrade HongHu

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 13:58

Just a thought. It doesn't seem to me that the factional ethos of the Hive and PEACE match too well. It's entirely possible that their pact is merely for strategic benefit, and not because of any true devotion to one another. In addition, our factional ethos seems to match quite well with the Hive's, and they seem quite friendly towards us.

We might try dropping a few subtle hints, a couple of remarks to test the waters. If they prove amenable, given that they are still pactmates with PEACE, they might be willing to relay certain bits of intelligence... base queues, research, garrisons, etc. That information would be quite useful until we infiltrate them ourselves.

Phenix · October 17, 2003, 14:27

Yes indeed. I see the Hive as a very good kandidate for a long-term pact IMHO

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 14:42

I agree with Corellion.

We may even want to go further. If we get a Pact, and become close friends, we could say we will give them the Angels commlink, and vote for them to be Planetary Governor, if they will relay the infiltration information to us. It leaves us open to double crossing, and to fake/misleading information (something we could do well

). Do not offer unless we trust them and think they'll agree though, since we don't want them being Governor unless we get significant benefits too, that would be giving the game to them.

Maniac · October 17, 2003, 16:37

Drogue, I see you offered to buy Gene Splicing, EthCalc and Doc:Loy in the Hive-CyCon forum.
But EthCalc we can steal from PEACE and Doc:Loy we don't really need right now: it will only slow down our research.
Perhaps a simple Gene Splicing <-> Doc:Ini trade might be better?

Phenix · October 17, 2003, 16:42

Did we have a constitution??...
Because Voltaire posted theirs too. I can't find ours... is it in an older tread or somewhere else?

Maniac · October 17, 2003, 16:45

Drogue wrote a constitution but it never got polled. IIRC I had some little remarks about it which never were fully discussed.

Corellion · October 17, 2003, 17:20

From Voltaire (via IM):

(I said nothing, he brought this up on his own... they've apparently been considering this)

Well I'm certain you have apprehensions about our pact with PEACE, after all you broke your with them only a short while ago, and may well be pondering what action PEACE will take, and if PEACE goes to war with you does our pact with them bind us to also declare war, etc.

That would be something that might be worth clearing up in the secure commlog

And this is not secure?

It is secure, but other members might want to know too
And it's better if it's put in as official, rather than relayed through me
It carries more weight
Unless you don't want to

The problem is that not everything can be said through the official channels, what I would say to you would be out of curtsy to you, as well as because I want to see a pact between the Hive and the CyCon succeed. And there still remains apprehension about it on our end.
You can share all this with the rest of the CyCon.

Have you read our explanation in the commlogs?

Yes
I will tell you that your problems with PEACE have not made a difference in out stance toward you.
If anything PEACE has fallen in our eyes.
Besides, you have no idea what passes for Hive diplomacy. Our messages have to be screened by almost everyone before we can collectively agree on a statement. Several decisions had to be pushed through by me because there was no consensus.

.
.
.

Oh and congratulations.
HongHu's the Hive ambassador to your faction.
You've been blessed.

Indeed... and why is that?

It's HongHu
The first lady of the Hive
The Daughter of the State

Ah

(Edit: By the way, I would not put absolute confidence in what Votaire says. Especially with the language he's using here, it seems like he may be trying to twist the language to his advantage. Nonetheless, important information.)

DeathByTheSword · October 17, 2003, 17:43

hmz...ok drogue can you send a PM asking him what the the HIVE will do if there is going to be a war between PEACE and CyCon? (ask it like that so that we dont give away anything)...and ask for a official but of course confidentional answer...just be straight to the point...i think that will work well...

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 20:59

DBTS: Sound's good, I'll do that

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Drogue wrote a constitution but it never got polled. IIRC I had some little remarks about it which never were fully discussed.

You do recall correctly. I have family over for the weekend, but should have some free time tomorrow. I will look at comments, amend the consitution, and put it to a poll.

I have some PMs back from Voltaire and Kody:

Quote:

Thank you Prime Function Drogue for your friendly greetings, the Hive will have to deliberate your offer and it will be passed on the People’s Congress for ratification. Though I cannot comment on the decision of the People’s Congress, since it has yet to be made, I can tell you that the feelings in the Hive towards the Cybernetic Consciousness are those of warmth.

As for my e-mail, please send all future diplomatic messages to nerv111@shaw.ca as well as to Comrade Kody (this is for archive purposes, and to ensure prompt response and deliberation to your offers). We have not yet assigned an ambassador to your faction, I am certain we will do so within a short period of time. The next diplomatic communiqué you receive will be from our ambassador.

-Chairman Voltaire

and:

Quote:

Hey Prime Function Drogue Beta-8,

I'm just known as Kody and it's Chairman Voltaire.

I will check the embassy comm-link frequently, however my email address is xxxjohn@alphadimensions.netxxx.

We'll probably accept the pact right now. However, we still haven't decided on any trade trading of yet. In addition to the techs you have mentioned there is also loyalty.

There's other stuff that needs to be said, but I'll pass that on to HongHu to tell you.

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Drogue, I see you offered to buy Gene Splicing, EthCalc and Doc:Loy in the Hive-CyCon forum.
But EthCalc we can steal from PEACE and Doc:Loy we don't really need right now: it will only slow down our research.
Perhaps a simple Gene Splicing <-> Doc:Ini trade might be better?

Possibly yes. I will put that as another option to them. Perimeter defences from Doc: Loyalty might be nice though? Or just go for the CDF?

I will PM HongHu or post that as another option.

Drogue · October 17, 2003, 21:58

I have sent this to Voltaire:

Quote:

Greetings Voltaire,

This is a personal message, from one faction leader to another.

I have been quietly informed of a conversation you have on IM with Function Corelli Omega-9, regarding the position of the Hive if there was a war between PEACE and the CyCon. I am aware that it is sensitive information, and cannot come officially yet, but would you be able to inform me of anything regarding this? Basically, I'm asking if you can tell us whether the Hive would support either side, or remain neutral? I am strongly for a Pact with the Hive, as the rest of the CyCon seem. If PEACE were to declare, though help would be appreciated, we would not need it to be written into our Pact that you would declare on PEACE. I realise this is a difficult situtation for you, and I know you cannot say much, I merely wish to inquire if you can say anything about it? I will, of course, only reveal to the rest of the faction what you agree to be.

Yours,
Drogue Beta-8

I tried to be polite but to the point, and discrete, and unforceful yet firm. I have not used titles, as I wanted this message to be simply a personal message between faction leaders. I hope we can find out.

I would say go to war regardless, as the Hive do not have anything that could be much of value for this ATM, IMHO. I don't think they will figure in the war much, until we have taken over PEACE enough that the Hive see they are no longer credible allies, and agree to a truce. Indeed, if it came down to it, we may well be able to take the Hive. It would be hard, and may well end in a stalemate, since we will remain technologically superior and have the MCC, but they have perimeter defences and production and will be able to defend against us. However it could contain them. Not that I agree with war with the Hive at all. I think it would be stupid. But if going to war with PEACE means going to war, at least short-term, with the Hive, I think we should do it. IMHO, PEACE need to be destroyed. However it is a very hard decision then. I just hope the Hive can remain neutral

Nubclear · October 17, 2003, 23:03

I'm simply pointing out something....

Just because someone is an ally, does not mean they are an actual ally.

Remember, I am Googlies son.

DeathByTheSword · October 18, 2003, 03:51

got this from honghu:

Quote:

Dear Prime Function Drogue and Function Delta,

I hereby bring you the initial Hive feedback to your proposal.

First, your proposed treaty has been unanimously accepted. Also, the public sentiment in the Hive is that we are interested in a deeper relationship with our valued CyCon friends. Therefore, I am authorized to propose to you a pact aiming for more co-operations in all aspects.

Second, at this point the Hive is beelining to restriction lifting. Therefore we do not feel we should obtain techs from you for that will increase our tech cost. In addition, Social Psych has a low value to us since we currently do not have drones problems. The Hive seniors have been considering several alternatives. The basic idea is that if we could get prototyped unit in lieu of the corresponding techs, we would be willing to offer techs to you as if we are trading the techs. There are also suggestions about extended tech trade where we agree to give you a tech in exchange to an agreement from you for another tech in the future when we need it. We are currently trying to work out a trade with the university to obtain Ecological Engineering. If we are able to obtain this technology, we might be willing to include it in the trade package to you in exchange for some kind of a unit with good weapon/armor/chasis and/or special ability combination. For example, we would be interested in impact, +2/3 armor, cruiser and/or marine ability. These proposals have not been polled yet. However, I would like to let you know what we are thinking so you could think ahead. I am prepared to start the necessary polls right now and would appreciate any feedback on these proposals from you.

Third, because CC commlink has been included in our trade offer to the university for ecological engineering, we would not be able to offer you the university commlink right now. We believe that the success of this potential trade would be beneficiall to both of our factions since we would then be able to offer it to you. In addition, while giving the university your commlink is equivalent with give you the university commlink, if you still desire it, we will offer you the university commlink after the trade with university go through.

Last, we are still thinking about ways to trade maps with you. We would like to avoid trading maps in game. There are worries that your coastal bases might be suspectiable to peace probes, thus people feel we need to find other ways around that will not compromise the Hive.

I hope I have presented to you a comprehensive picture of the Hive’s view about the future relationship between us. Please feel free to contact me and Kody if you have any questions. I strive to be open to you. I hope this attitude will eliminate any possible misunderstanding and foster a good relationship between our two factions.

Comrade HongHu
CyCon Ambassador of the Human Hive

interseting and well if they remain faithfull to our pact i am willing to make some trade with us giving them units to reverse engineer...but that faith i dont have right now...maybe send something back that altho we understand there reasons we are not allowed by constitution

...to trade away units they dont have the technology for...i dont have time right now but i will come up with a reply soon

Impaler[WrG] · October 18, 2003, 03:54

I dont think we should support the Hive for Govenor unless they are very friendly with us.

I also belive we should not drop any more hints of PEACE-CYCON war, if we keep pestering them about it they will inevitably catch on to the fact that we are planing such a war which we want to be a suprise to everyone. The Hive is not yet know well enough for us to trust them with knowlage of the impending war. Them becoming Govenor gives them that knowlage by default as soon as we begin building war units.

As far as tec trading I would put a high importance on Gene Splicing to lift our nutrient cap, along with any other cap lifting tec's we need these for growth.

Phenix · October 18, 2003, 05:35

The Hive uses a lot of beautiful words, and they sure have the appearance of friendship towards us. But anything could reside behind that façade...

Maybe they'll support Peace, maybe they'll join us, but my bet is the Hive will remain neutral until they can distinguish a clear winner and then help the strongest faction. I agree we shouldn't continue asking them what they would do in a possible war, we've already given enough hints...

As for trading, maybe propose (as Maniac suggested) a straight Doc:Ini against GeneSp trade? They said they'd rather get units, but I think it'll be hard for them to resist the cruiser tech

EDIT:

We should try to gain some intelligence on Hive-Drone relations. These seem like 2 factions to me we could maybe play off against each other. At least, we should try to gain some trading advantage...

Googlie · October 18, 2003, 10:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Phenix
We should try to gain some intelligence on Hive-Drone relations. These seem like 2 factions to me we could maybe play off against each other. At least, we should try to gain some trading advantage...

Well you know that the Hive and Drones are pacted (at least were pacted in 2139 when they signed the pact with PEACE and you gained access to their infiltration on the Hive and were still pacted in 2141, the last year of your pact with PEACE)

And if your Function responsible for covert intelligence had been "on the ball" you would have noted that the Drones moved to wealth the turn after the Hive, in the early 20's (much as you and the Pirates followed each other by a year)

And wealth's prereq is Ind Auto ..............

G.

Drogue · October 18, 2003, 11:19

I have received a reply from Voltaire:

Quote:

Hello Drogue,

I brought up the issue since I believed that the CyCon may be curious regarding our pact relationship with the Pirates, and what it entails. Since you so desire I will tell you that our pact with the Pirates has been purely a defensive one, by this I mean we entered into the pact in order to prevent a surprise attack by PEACE forces. There do not exist any statutory commitments in the Hive-PEACE pact, thus we will not be obliged to help PEACE in any war they may enter.

As for the second issue you bring up, whether the Hive would support either side in the conflict, I can only assure you that at this time we would remain neutral. If we were to enter into a pact with you (as both many CyCon and Hive members desire) mutual defense can be negotiated, though I cannot make any statements regarding their operability for I am yet unaware of Hive public opinion on the matter (though I believe it to be favorable to such a proposal). I will say this, even if no formal mutual defense agreement will be reached, the Hive would strongly unofficially favor the CyCon, we consider you to be our natural ally, and would do everything in order to help your security. Our intelligence office possesses much information about PEACE, and we would be willing to share such information if so requested. Know that you always have a friend and partner in the Hive, even though it may not be official.

As for reveling this information to the rest of your faction, do with it as you please.

Sincerely,
Chairman Voltaire

I am very happy about this. It seems obvious that the Hive does not sit well with PEACE, and I have no reason to doubt anything Voltaire said in that.

With regards to the Pact they propose, I think we should, but we should wait until just before we launch an attack against PEACE. This would be perfect for us, since PEACE don't get forewarning of our attack, but we get infiltration information on PEACE to attack with. We also get a Pact with the Hive, which is worth a lot IMHO. How do we stall the Hive without giving away our plans though? Either we need a damn good excuse, or we need to tell them that we plan to go to war with PEACE, and would like to sign the Pact later. How much do we believe Voltaire about their good intentions towards us? I am impressed they did not try to sell us the PUT commlink as well as selling PUT ours.

I want friendship with the Hive, and so am obviously strongly for the treaty and any trades.

Opinions? I plan to send a PM (or DBTS can) to HongHu offering Doc: Ini for Gene Splicing, or possibly mentioning that we could give them a unit for it? (I'm thinking a 1-1-6 cruiser or something).

Edit: Have replied to HongHu's forum message with this:

Quote:

It has been posted in our forum and that should be ok :-) Thank you for your kind words. The CyCon is very much for strong relations between our two factions. We are currently debating your Pact offer, however we are a little apprehensive about giving PEACE that much information on us. We have almost made a complete map of PEACE territory, from looking at their base productions screens, and it is very possible to do that with ours, looking at the layout. Also, they would see which bases are probe protected and which are not. We should have our most vulnerable bases protected in a few years, but if PEACE find out which those are, they can easily aim for a different base. I want to stress that our hesitation on this issue is no reflection of our extremely positive opinions of the Hive, and purely our fear at the amount of information PEACE will have. We are certainly for a Pact, as far as the actual Pact goes, but we are a little uneasy with PEACE until our defences are built up a little more (since we lost the Pact with them we realised the need not to have undefended coastal bases).

We understand you do not wish to stagnate your research with unnecessary techs, and thus I am authorized to offer you a single trade of Doc: Ini for Gene Splicing. We are debating about units, and it is certainly a possibility, but production is not our strongest point. I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to PBEM, so could you describe the deal you wish in more detail? We gift you a unit that you do not have the tech for, and you gift us a tech?

I hope I haven't gone too far. I wanted to give them our honest positions without giving our intentions towards PEACE. I am strongly for a friendship going as far as possible with the Hive. We could go for a co-op victory even? Either way, let us try to remain good friends.

Impaler[WrG] · October 18, 2003, 11:34

Lets next offer the Hive a servies of trades which we will say "build confidence" they will ofcorse do this they will also delay the actual Pacting untill 3-4 turns before War declarations are made. Thus Peaces warning will be too small to be of much effect.

Also we should start asking the Drones and Hive each what the nature of their relationships with each other are (this would seem natural would reduce suspision of our earlier inquery over Hive-PEACE relations). Lets say something like.

"We would also like to know about your relationship with the Drones and inquire on the Possibility of a long term 3 way Pact between us. Lastly let me inquire as to your University relationships as they are quite a mystery to us."

Do we have any idea how much trade energy we will get out of a treaty or Pact, right now we are getting none but I suspect we can make a lot more (like more then zero) with Pacts and a Glabal Trade Agreement once the Counsil meets.