HIVE diplomatic exchanges

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I would not be in favor of promising the Hive the PEG in exchange for CBA. Unless the Drones trade us SFF (looking douptfull) then we will not even be getting MMI anyware soon enough to beat Hive or Drones to either secret Project. They will simply scoop them all up, or conveniently let the Drones build anything they have agreed not to build. The level of coperation between these 2 factions is simply sick, I would consider them to practicaly be 1 team at this point and I think the chanc of one or both of them trying to concour us is VERY high. We must assume the worse.

I agree, but we are not trading the PEG for the CBA. We are trading the PEG for another tech! I also doubt how close they will be, since Kody ("the main link" - HongHu's words) has left.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Also I think we should get Env Econ from the University, they expressed intereest in helping us and we have several tecs they want. Atleast lets see who has a better deal, their is far too much faith in the Hive around here is you ask me. We dont need to do them any favors. Lets go with Eco Eng for Adap Econ with nonprolifertion and no Secret Project build on their part. And lets see what Uni offers.

I agree let's see what PUT ask for, but do you think the PEG is worth another tech? They haven't agreed to Adapt Econ for Eco Eng with the no builds. We may be able to get Eco Eng and Env Econ for Adapt Econ and a sweetener (maybe 50 ec?). I'd rather let the Hive build the SP and give them 50ec than what PUT will probably offer. Also remember PEACE could trade them Adapt Econ knowing that PEACE won't last long, and meaning that although we get the tech, the Hive get's the PEG and doesn't give us both techs. We need to be the ones making this deal.

[Impaler[WrG]]

If they were to go behind our backs and trade with PEACE for a tec we are currently negotiating for and then build that Secret Project and claim that because they trade with PEACE they are under no no-build agreements then I would consider that cause for War.

[Drogue]

They're not going behind our backs. They told us they are negotiating with PEACE for Adapt Econ too. Why is that bad? They're pacted with both of us.

[Drogue]

Ok, we have a problem. I am not sure if he is talking just from his own opinion, or just touting horns, but here is a series of posts from the VoyForum:

Maniac:

Apparently Enigma_Nova told laurentius the Hive is proposing the same deal to PEACE. Is that true?

Enigma's reply:

We'll probably offer something different to the PEACE as they're in the process of getting their butts whooped.

The idea is still the same - buy low. However, I know that the more powerful CyCon become, the more chance they have of winning the game.
I'd rather the Hive winning the game.

If I give stuff to the PEACE, then they'll just get their butts kicked, so we'll have given away nothing for our tech.
If we give you Eco Eng then you're going to use it to build like madmen, am I not correct?

Plus, PEACE aren't going to get the PEG, no matter what we do. So maybe they'll send it -with- PEG attached?
All problems can be overcome. Maybe you'd like to ripoff a different secret project as Ascetic doesn't do much for you guys, does it?

Seemed a little forceful, but I understand their position, they can buy from both factions, and they want to buy low. That's understandable.

My reply:

If you give PEACE techs, you do realise we steal it when we capture their bases? If you trade Eco End to them, when we take a base next turn we'll just steal it off them, since we have tech-steal ability :-D

Why does Ascetic not do much for us? Extra police and extra pop growth ability is good for every faction Especially one that's too busy fighting a war to bother with Hab Complex's. I'd probably prefer the PEG, but if you build the PEG, and beat us, we will have a part built SP lying around, and the AV is a nice SP to have :-)

If you trade with them you'd give us the tech as well as them, and you'd gain favour with a faction who are about to be destroyed and seriously annoy us (if you gave them tech that helped their war effort against us). The CyCon are very pro-Hive, as we've always said, but if you support our enemy in a war against us then that won't go down well. We presumed after our earlier talks that you would stay neutral. Therefore, what would be the point trading with them? Of course you want the lowest cost possible, but personally, if I were in your position, I would be wanting the no-build clause for the two SPs. Which do you want more, the PEG or the AV?

Now, if you were to offer Eco Eng and Env Econ, we could say we won't build either, and possibly throw in a few ec? HongHu mentioned that in chat the other day.

I wanted to make sure they knew about our techsteal and to try to make the AV seem more attractive for us than it is, so we can go for the no build agreement. I also wanted to discuss HongHu's arrangement, and check that they were sticking to their pledge not to help PEACE in the war, and to remain neutral.

Enigma's reply :

"If you give PEACE techs, you do realise we steal it when we capture their bases?"
What if we get them Plasma Armor? Or Synth Fuels?

"Why does Ascetic not do much for us? Extra police and extra pop growth ability is good for every faction "
True, I suppose. But you're going to take an age to get to pop 9 without serious booming effort, and 1 police isn't that much better than 0 police.

"with Hab Complex's. I'd probably prefer the PEG, but if you build the PEG, and beat us, we will have a part built SP lying around, and the AV is a nice SP to have :-)"
We're not idiots. You're nowhere near Planetary Econ.

"and you'd gain favour with a faction who are about to be destroyed and seriously annoy us"
Okay- here's the deal.
We take Adaptive and the PEG from peace.
You build the AV, we declare war on you and take the Maritime Control Center and the AV by force.
How does that sound to you?

"but if you support our enemy in a war against us then that won't go down well."
Then I suggest you prepare to go down.

"We presumed after our earlier talks that you would stay neutral."
We will do what it takes to win, good sir.

"Which do you want more, the PEG or the AV?"
Actually we'd like the Maritime Control Center.

He seems to be threatening us! He is being very hostile here, and wanting to break their pledge not to aid PEACE against us. IMHO that is a serious problem. I didn't want to escalate things, but I want to know a couple of things:
Is Enigma just touting horns?
Is this his opinion of Hive opinion?
Are they actually threatening us with military action?

So I replied as such. I think I've been very civil considering, but we must be firm and clear about military action:

"What if we get them Plasma Armor? Or Synth Fuels?"
As we said, if you aid the PEACE war effort we will consider that a hostile act. We used to talk about a co-op victory, and have been very friendly towards the Hive, and vice versa. I would like to continue that, but if you are going to directly help our enemies war effort, I fear it will not be possible. Also if you trade SFF we will take it when we take their bases. And you think you could get a military unit that far from your bases, into their territory, to trade to them, without cruisers, in any reasonable time scale (ie while they still survive)?

"True, I suppose. But you're going to take an age to get to pop 9 without serious booming effort"
I wouldn't say that. a) pop boom is pretty high on our list as an objective after the war. b) We don't grow that slowly. I think we'll start needing complex's soon.

"We're not idiots. You're nowhere near Planetary Econ."
As close as you, IIRC. Possibly closer with Adapt Econ.

"Okay- here's the deal.
We take Adaptive and the PEG from peace.
You build the AV, we declare war on you and take the Maritime Control Center and the AV by force.
How does that sound to you?"
"Then I suggest you prepare to go down."
I want to make absolutly clear of you're intention here. Are you saying if we don't trade on your terms you will declare war on us? Are you threatening us with military action? Hardly a move to make against a faction you have been discussing pacts and alliances with.

Considering we have a far bigger army than you at this time, are very far away from you, and have the MCC, I doubt that would happen as you say. It would also require you to move from your builder stance to a war stance, and lose you commerce, and an ally. Meanwhile, the Drones continue to build, grow and gain in strength. What happens if they then decide they don't need you? It's up to you of course, but threatening your allies doesn't seem particularly logical. I still find it amazing that you join the game, decide to threaten your allies and friends, and your teammates look on and say nothing.

"We will do what it takes to win, good sir."
Really? Threatening your allies puts you in a stronger position, you think?

I don't want to be inflamatory here, and I am hoping you are simply speaking for yourself, not the will of the Hive. However I want to make two things clear:
1) Early on, you said you would stay neutral in the PEACE/CyCon war. If that is not the case please tell us. Either way they won't last long enough for you to get any military help to them, but I am a little shocked that you are openly suggesting that you would aid their war against us. Hardly the action of allies.
2) We do not wish any ill will on our allies, and value the Hive/CyCon friendship. However if the Hive (as opposed to Enigma's own opinion) is to threaten us with military action if we don't agree to their trade demands, that will almost certainly sour that. That was not the impression I got from HongHu, the official ambassador (if she is still?). I am hoping it is not the case. We wouldn't dream of threatening our allies, and would hope that was a mutual feeling.

- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

What now? What if they are threatening. If they help PEACE, IMHO we ally with PUT and make them the next target, while subvertly trying to break up the Hive and Drones. It is a large distance between us, making support hard. WE have the MCC and cruisers, they do not. They have plasma and will get missiles, as will we, and they can outbuild us. If Drones can remain neutral, we can go for it. Meanwhile I will talk to HongHu and get things sorted out. I think Enigma's just being an idiot, but if we can get the Hive to realise this, and see that he soured things, maybe they can get him to shut up for a bit.

Here's hoping!

[Maniac]

Hmm, I would suggest Voltaire to appoint Enigma_Nova as Ambassador to the Drones. I'm sure that will increase the odds in favour of a CyCon-Hive co-op!

[Drogue]

I agree

[Impaler[WrG]]

Remeber though that if the Hive and Drones coperate heavily (as they have in the past) they could gain a strong military edge over us with MMI and missles.

If the Drones were to remain nutral and not trade the Hive any of the needed tecnologies then the Hive would be quite incapable of launching an offensive war against us or of threatening the University with a Navel invasion assuming our Navy protected them.

So everything hinges on the strength of the Hive Drone relationship together their a Huge threat but if that relationship sours they will be much weaker. Keep an eye on their tec trading all indications are that they are mearly keeping tec costs low and if either of them felt the need for a join war they would exchange any powerfull military tecs.

[laurentius]

My profiling of enigma:

17, male, lives in one of those strangely named cities near Sydney, Au. Wollonbonga or something

Enigma_Nova is somewhat a nutjob. During my 'talks' with him today he said he had told buster to fu*k off because he was making demands. He was very aggressive and I'm not sure he was joking at all. I really hope he was and that I was just being seriously trolled.

Man he was even crazier than tassadar in his best days!

He really seems to be on the verge of insanity and I hope he will never get any official position in the Hive. he is basically considers anyone opposing his views as a 'fuc*er' including voltaire, buster, tassadar and us. He openly admitted being a rogue, and seems to have problems with team playing, authorities and well, people in general.

Very amusing guy. Likes to keep half an hour monologues over the MSN. Starts to scream if interupted.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by laurentius
During my 'talks' with him today he said he had told buster to fu*k off because he was making demands.

That's brilliant! Did he also say what buster's demands were? Perhaps we could exploit Enigma_Nova as a source of confidential information at least if that wouldn't be spying.

Anyway, I'm sure the situation will be rectified after HongHu comes back.

[laurentius]

My function is to gather information, I will do what I can.

[Drogue]

If he manages to mess everything up, he may break the Hive/Drone relationship. Then either we ally with Hive (without Enigma probably) and win, or ally with PUT and win Either way I'm happy

Edit: oh, and Lauri. Very nicely done I like his personal rant in the VoyForum against anything authority/conformity related. Nice to know there are still some interesting crazy people online

[laurentius]

Voltaire seems to have resigned as the chairman of the Hive. I have this confirmed from 3 sources now

[MrWhereItsAt]

Enigma and I cooperated closely together for a while on a plan to resurrect the ACPSG. His idea was radical, but it was better than complete inactivity. Unfortunately I was busy just when crunch time came, so I missed the whole couping shebang. Else it would have been me AND him in control, not just him.

He is a self-proclaimed outcast from the people at his University/hostel. He says he is something of a minor prodigy, being at 3rd Year University level at 17 (3-4 years ahead of normal), and resents his fellows for not being as intellectual as he. God I wish I had brought that chatlog I had with him once along with me.... And he is quite some physical distance from me here in Sydney (to which I am rather glad) - he lives in Wollongong, which is around 500km to the West. Close to Sydney, I suppose, but only by virtue of there being no other major population centres for some 1000km or more. This IS Australia!

I think we have to take everything he says with a heavy dose of sceptcism. These may well be his thoughts, but they would become actions only ifevery other Hive person became inactive (which, unfortunately is possible). My suggestion is that in ALL contact with him we respond with our own views, but in as non-controversial a way as possible. He seemed to warm to me a bit as I didn't outright condemn him aloud, whatever I was thinking about what he was saying. Provoking him will not be good.

We need to, in future conversations, go for the cooperative route, and just try to convince him that cooperation is far better at this stage than confrontation, which neither of us really want. Just try to befriend him in what we say, and just to keep our real feelings for this forum and nowhere else. If you feel like fighting back - don't, as this would make things worse. Reinforce our position, but try to avoid conflict. IOW I guess I am just saying be as diplomatic as possible.

If things degenerate, we may have to contact other Hive members for help, but we can't let him get to us at all.

[laurentius]

Too bad there may not be many other hiverians left soon MWIA

[Drogue]

Where do we stand on the Hive offer, Doc Loyalty and Eco Eng for Adapt Econ and the PEG?

I have said we would probably prefer Env Econ (especially for Doc Loyal) but what do we want? What Hive techs would you want?

[Maniac]

Since, if everything goes right, we should be able to get the PEG ourselves, has this not become an unnecessary discussion? Though of course, until we are sure to get the PEG MY 2154/5 or so, we should try to keep up appearances as if we're interested in selling AdapEcon+PEG, to prevent them seeking a deal with PEACE.

[Drogue]

I would be very much against this. What's worth more, the PEG or 2/3 techs? We agreed earlier to try to sell it to both Hive and Drones in the same turn, as the techs were more valuble. Why do we need the PEG so much? Sure it's a nice SP, but it's not worth 2 or 3 techs. We need Eco Eng and Env Econ. Boreholes give us more energy than energy banks.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Why do you say 2-3 Tecs?

I dont think the Hive will actualy trade 2 tecs for Adaptive Econ and the Drones are not being very responisve.

I am incressingly leaning Back towards building the PEG for oursevles and conducting the nessary trades with Uni to get us to restriction lifting. Without our help the Hive will have a very long march to get to Planetary Econ so the tec will still have value after we build the project.

I am also less shure of the Hives intentions now that they have had yet another internal mix up, they might try to back stab us.

I think we should trade Progenitor Pych for Doc Loyalty as these are both low level tecs and we both need them to reach our goals. Tell them we can trade Adaptive Econ AFTER we have obtained the PEG but not before unless they swear not to take the project from us. In any event we should conduct the trade in 56 so that we have the Project totaly Locked down no matter what tretchery they might attempt.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Also I estimate once we are in a FreeMarket we could generate nearly 300 Credits a turn by pushing Econ up to 80%.

We could then use that energy to hurry a number of reserach inducing facilites or treeFarms or Chreech's (what ever we want). Then switch everything back to reserch and come out ahead in reserch over the long run.

Labs dont actualy do any good for us untill we GET the tec in question, Credits on the other hand are imediatly usefull if they are invested into infasturcture and the investment is most usefull when it is made as far in the PAST as possible. So logicaly we want to generate a large quantity of Credits first and imediatly invest all of it, then over the next few turns reap the benifit of the investment by grabing our next tec asap. Once that is reaserched we can spend one or two turns at Full Econ again and make an additional wind fall. By consentrating Credit Production early and Labs later we make maximum use of our efficiency rating (something the others Cant do becausue of their Social Engingering).

Thus the PEG will be a HUGE bost to both our Credit AND lab production because we will be able to lay down nodes like crazy and once we have nodes we are EQUAL to the university in reserach advantage!

[Maniac]

I'm with Impaler on this one.

Drogue:

What's worth more, the PEG or 2/3 techs?

If we traded AdapEcon plus PEG, we could probably get one tech from the Drones and two from the Hive. If we traded without the PEG, we'd still get two in total: one of the Hive and Drones each. So the difference is only one tech. But even if it would be more, I'd still consider the PEG more valuable.
Consider this:
If we capture all possible PEACE bases, we will have a faction with 20 bases. If we would have to build energy banks in all of those, it would cost 20*80=1600 minerals, and cost us 20 credits maintenance per year. So with building the PEG for 300 minerals, we're saving 1300 minerals and 20 credits per year. That's certainly worth one tech less IMO.

Impaler:

Also I estimate once we are in a FreeMarket we could generate nearly 300 Credits a turn by pushing Econ up to 80%.

I agree. Though keep in mind we now have an agreement with PUT to research MMI. So in the next few years, after we got the PEG and need credits a bit less for a while, I would suggest we switch back to 70% labs and research MMI as fast as possible. When that obligation is done, I fully support going 80% economy and hurry lots of infrastructure!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I dont think the Hive will actualy trade 2 tecs for Adaptive Econ

They have said they will trade for two techs.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I think we should trade Progenitor Pych for Doc Loyalty as these are both low level tecs and we both need them to reach our goals.

Doubt they'll go for it. Prog Psych is of little use IMHO. Of we say trade after, they'll simply trade with PEACE and build the PEG.

I will go by majority decision, but IMHO, that is a very bad one. The Hive will simply trade with PEACE. And that is bad.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
If we traded AdapEcon plus PEG, we could probably get one tech from the Drones and two from the Hive. If we traded without the PEG, we'd still get two in total: one of the Hive and Drones each. So the difference is only one tech. But even if it would be more, I'd still consider the PEG more valuable.

The Drones would not trade for it without PEG (they'd get it from Hive), and the Hive would simply trade with PEACE and try and build it. I think we'll get nothing if we don't trade it. But hey, it's democracy.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Drogue
The Drones would not trade for it without PEG (they'd get it from Hive),

Obviously when we trade it to the Hive, we should include a trade embargo clause.

and the Hive would simply trade with PEACE and try and build it.

That's why until the end of MY 2154, we have to act to the Hive as if we're interested in selling AdapEcon plus PEG. After MY 2154 they can no longer prevent us from getting the PEG anyway, so then we can offer a real trade proposal. For them it would make no difference then anymore who they traded with: they wouldn't get the PEG anyway, so they might as well trade with us to prevent a serious decline in the Hive-CC relationship.

[DeathByTheSword]

hmz...i like the idea...but i am kinda scary about the hive secretly helping PEACE...they will not send troops because we will know but still. with credits and maybe technology they will help PEACE enough so that they can delay us enough so that they can go to war against the UNI...btw on a more general note....if ever an human faction attacks an other human faction and we dont go to war...may i suggest atleast aiding the losing party so that the winning party will have a harder and longer war on its hands...

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Obviously when we trade it to the Hive, we should include a trade embargo clause.
If they go for that?

so they might as well trade with us to prevent a serious decline in the Hive-CC relationship.

Don't you think making them believe we will trade with PEG, then doing them over and building it ourselves, will cause a serious decline in our relationship? I'm not ready for a Hive vendetta yet. If we want to keep relations with them, then either trade it with PEG, or try to get a deal without the PEG. IMHO a Doc Loyal and Eco Eng deal is well worth it, since we will gain hugely from having boreholes. But if we don't agree, I say tell them.

If we're going to build the PEG, then we need to tell them and try to trade Adapt Econ without the PEG.

Whatever we do, they're just going to go and trade with PEACE IMHO. And quite rightly. If we refuse to give them what they want, and another faction is willing to sell it, I'd expect them to go for it.

Moderated by Drogue

[Maniac]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
btw on a more general note....if ever an human faction attacks an other human faction and we dont go to war...may i suggest atleast aiding the losing party so that the winning party will have a harder and longer war on its hands...

I agree. Currently we're doing that more or less by trading PUT all of our top military technologies and leapfrogging to MMI.

Btw, if the Drones effectively attack PUT instead of only probing them, do I assume correctly we will fully help PUT?

[DeathByTheSword]

well i dunno...from a winning-the-game-point-of-view ofcourse...but maybe we should ask for a (military) base on PUT soil to help with the defence (for a getting-as-much-as-possible-and-kinda-roleplaying-oint-of-view)...we could put troops in all there bases as Peacekeeping forces (ally with PUT but dont declare war on Drones)...creating a situation that the drones need to declare war on us...making them the agressors...not that is matters much but makes nice 3D headlines and stories

[Maniac]

oh my!

[Drogue]

Moderated by Drogue

[DeathByTheSword]

what is our official standpoint btw

Moderated by Drogue