Official: CyCon negotiations

[Snowflake]

We already have all the commlink right?

[Googlie]

Correct. At the opening of the current (2144) turn, the Hive possesses all commlinks

G.

[Jamski]

Well, the CyCon don't know that, do they? Unless they tried to trade them to us already.

OK, lets call a council pretty soon then. The Drones will vote for us, we will vote for ourselves and the CyCon too. I should check if we have enough votes yet...

-Jam

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by buster
btw - current plan is to change from FM to planned next turn (2144 our turn - just before 2145 yours). This should cause an immediate pop increase on the following turn of about 6 and will enable us to pop boom bases with creches. Estimate an average growth of not less than 5 per turn - until we stabilize for a while around size 65 or so. We have a couple of new bases coming shortly too.

Estimate we will surpass Angels in size year 2147 - maybe 2148 meaning you should be able to call an election that will have you & us as candidates either on your turn 2148 or 2149. Btw around 2151 we expect to bigger than you

We will take a research and income hit in the first years from lowered energy & lowered trade-income but as we grow and particularly after bases start hitting size 5 and we can start allocating scientists (or whatever it is their name is) we should quickly be back to or faster than the current level.

[Snowflake]

In other words, we could call an election on 2148 even if we don't have anybody support us. Although CC and PEACE votes could make sure it's us not drones to be the governor but if it is the drone we still gets the infiltration although the commerce income would be nice too.

[Snowflake]

Sorry forget to post this, posted by Function DBTS in embassy:

the message is relaided to CyCon high command, CyCon council and CyCon national broadcast functions...standby for reply

[Jamski]

Let's try and get US not the Drones as Gov'nor, ok? I think we want to be the STRONG half of the equal team

-Jam

[Snowflake]

From buster Nov 22:

got this and my reply:

Quote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi - Had you told us you had it - we would have informed you. It was somewhat surprising (and an annoying waste) to see it already in your hands. I need to consult with the group but I believe we can agree to a non-proliferation treaty. You will get final confirmation in a day or so. As far as trading goes we dont have any new techs beyond this one. IIRC the tradeable ones were the ones already offered (eth calc & some earlier ones). I will give you an exact list when I get back to you. regards buster Quote: Maniac wrote on Sunday, 23rd November 2003 01:16:49: Greetings most honoured Foremen Buster, Mongoose and Jtsisyoda, It has been a while since we last talked. Due to the decrease in activity our External Affairs Office has been more or less inoperational. For that reason only now we noticed you have knowledge of High Energy Chemistry. That is a very dangerous technological field, and treated with utmost care and secrecy (as far as possible) in the Consciousness. After all, it has far-reaching military consequences, and could destabilize the world if everyone had access to it. For that reason the External Affairs Functionality was wondering if you would be willing to sign a non-proliferation agreement regarding High Energy Chemistry? We would then both agree not to trade or gift HEC to other factions, unless we mutually agree to do so. Our analyses indicate that such a deal would lead to a safer and more secure world for the both of us. Btw, are there any techs we can trade? It's a pity we didn't know you could acquire HEC. Otherwise we would have gladly traded it with you, and wouldn't have lost an opportunity for cooperation. Greetings, Mani Alpha-3 Second Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

Besides our group needing to agree - it of course requires Hives agreement too. I believe however it would be in our best interest to make this non-proliferation treaty.

Keeping Uni from trading HEC means we will almost certainly get to MMI before them and will go a long way in ensuring the invasion goes as planned.

I am even willing to make the treaty with the agreement between the two of us that I will break it any time you require it from us. I hope you won't make me - but if you do I will, excusing myself with presuure from you.

Once we give you the tech Cycon will however undoubtedly put it on the "open market", so my advice is that we agree the treaty and that you delay getting it until either Cycon breaks the treaty, one of the others get it by normal reasearch or you really need it.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by HongHu

The Hive has not had many discussions about the game yet. So I'm not sure what our near term and long term plan is. (Like if we are going to war with uni or roze soon.) But regarding the HEC trade, I've talked to Kody and we think that since you are currently beelining to air power and we restriction lifting, I don't think we need to get the tech if we could get a prototyped unit. In fact we have already mentioned to CC that we would like to trade with them of some prototyped unit such as +3 attack. So you should be ok going into no trading HEC agreement with CC. You may know better than I about whether it's good to mention the possible prototype trading. I'll try to start some game related discussions in the Hive and hopefully we would have more to tell you.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by buster

We could send you the proto.

Drones will go after Uni very soon after getting MMI. They seem close enough that an assault can be simply airborne drop & chop meaning it will be quick and brutal if they have not prepared defenses very well (going in with 20 or more units - probably three turns after the start of the attack they are dead).

You contributing units will of course help but is not absolutely necessary. What will be helpful from your side is choppers, drop units or planes.

We hope to get infiltration on them in one of the next turns.

Anyway - the decision on the attack can be delayed - it only gets urgent once we get MMI where there will then come maybe three - four turns of cranking out millitary units followed by the attack.

It is probably about 20 turns out - meaning next summer if this pace keeps up.

For now if we can agree on you delaying on getting HEC and getting a proto of a 1-3-1, I will make the agreement with Cycon.
You should not tell them you have gotten the proto unless you have a pact (I forgot) in which case they will know it anyway so we might as well tell.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by HongHu

Currently we are not pacted with CC yet but it is the intention of Hive leaderships to pact with them. I will not tell CC about the prototype trade between us and will tell the other Hivers to do the same thing. I will also convey to the Hive about Drone's potential war plan against the uni and see what level of military cooperation could be formed.

Currently we are pacted with PEACE and PEACE pacted with uni. Let me know if I could get any info regarding uni that would be any help to you.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by HongHu

Quote:

Originally posted by buster meaning next summer if this pace keeps up.

You are right Buster. This brings up another thought of mine. Say after we get rid of the uni and PEACE, you fight over CC while the Hive sits and watches (according to the current public sentiment the Hive is hesitated in destroying CC), this would mean the game could continue for some time (I'm sure you would be the strongest faction at that point of time but still). While the team members of the two eliminated teams may not feel very good in sitting and watching others having fun. I feel it may be better for a demo game that everybody participates the majority of the game and the end is quick (even if painful for some). In other words, if the three of us pact together and quickly get rid of the other two and claim victory, it may be brutal (and too easy) but it does have an advantage of finishing the game faster instead of letting the other two teams to have a long torture after death.

Does this thought sound sensible to you at all? Do you think that a 3 way pact (even in the future) is in any way remotely possible?

[Snowflake]

Maniac at CC Embassy

We're glad you're back into service. :-) Has there been any word on the message Tassadar was so kind to forward?

My reply

Currently the Hive is in a state of after-coup chaos. The leadership has been either left, missing, busy or on trial. Tass had faithfully conveyed your message to the Hive. However, no discussion has been incurred yet. Currently I'm working on summarizing the situation in game for other Hivers, hoping this will bring people back into the game. I'm hoping that we will start some real game related discussions before the turn is in our hands. I will keep you informed of any new developments.

[Snowflake]

From buster

I believe Googlie stepped in this one earlier when it first came up. A three way shared victory in a five player game really is not much of a victory - particularly not if the alliance is formed at such a time as when two of the three teams are by far larger.

If it was three underdogs ganging up I would have no problem but the two of us ganging up with Cyborgs is really just an excercise in not destroying the Cyborgs. If you prefer we can leave them alive and do a diplo victory or such - I am not bound on destroying them. It will make the game go somewhat longer than it otherwise would though.

Suggest we take it up later - once the Uni thing has gone as planned. That one could still get a bit complicated if they start plastering their area with Aerospace complexes. They will probably only do that if they smell what is coming but we had a couple of suspicious sign-ups here recently meaning plans may be out in the open. (People who joined who only ever posted here or at Poly regarding joining - then came and looked and did not show up since or answer PMs). May be nothing but has a bad smell.

[Snowflake]

Kody

While I have been avoiding actually opening the game, I've still been watching the forums.

There was a very good reason why I approached Minute Mirage to get him to join the ACDG (he was supposed to join on the hive side). I saw that he had the basic personality and intelligence needed for making a very good player. That reasoning seems to be fairly well founded with my recent browsing of the strategy forums.

Expect at least an above average development rate for the university. Minute Mirage has been absorbing strategy about fast as I did, and from what I've seen there has always been very sound reasoning behind everything he's said in the strategy forums.

While I don't think he's gone insane with amount of time spent on the turns, although I expect that the university will be making very few mistakes when he plays.

Archiac, I believed had an ability that fell short of his reputation and I felt that beating the university would be an easy victory (after carefully looking at his turns and his postings). The way he approached things was a bit too rigid and he wouldn't be able to effectively adapt his strategy for the specific situation.

With Minute Mirage running the turns I believe that an easy victory will be less likely. I think that the university might end up getting MMI soon after us (maybe before us if the cycon assist the university). This may lead to a more difficult war.

I'm hoping that the university is neglecting diplomancy (due to internal beauracy). Unfortunately, without spending huge amounts of time checking and rechecking posting patterns, I'm in the dark about this.

I'm pretty sure that the university has written the hive off as a possible ally a long time ago. The relanding of the scout also suggests they are confident that they can fight the hive, or are already certain that the hive intends to fight a war without quarter against them and don't care if their actions hurry the process a little.

The question that has been bugging me is why were they so confident that they were willing to tweak the hive's nose by relanding their scout and breaking the terms of the treaty. Also why would they break a treaty so early that gives them trade income, but doesn't give the hive any. I've been thinking about it ever since I saw their scout and I can't figure out something that rings true.

One possibility is the insult rokossovky left in the turn tracking thread when he posted the turn previous. Although I thought the university was more mature than to let an insult effect their decisions.

One possibility is because they believed the current hive members would anull the current power of the hive. If the other teams hold the hive in low regard then we would have to deal with the cycon very carefully. If I was in the cycon's position and felt that the hive was inconsequential, an secret alliance with the university would be top of my agenda.

*sigh*

I think too much sometimes.

[Snowflake]

Buster

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody *sigh* I think too much sometimes.

I think you're right. There is nothing I can imagine the Uni could have up the sleeve that ought to make them confident and not fearing an attack.

You are after all way bigger - a faction suited for war and at about the same tech level. I think they are either just being stupid or made a mistake about borders or assumed that once they had crossed the border they were on the legal side of the deal.

I think the last is the most likely. That they get MMI is likewise not much of a problem - they won't at all be able to match our numbers - even with Drones (as of now size 31) going alone.

What will make it difficult is aerospace complexes everywhere. (Cloudbase acad or all out building aerospace complexes after getting DAP). We will take them anyway - but it will cost us an annoying 3-5 turns of extra preparations.

[Snowflake]

Me

I agree that we should take on the permanent relationship with CC issue later.

As for non-posting players, I believe that Hive probably has been infiltrated badly already. And this maybe why the uni doesn't hold any false hope to be the Hive's friend and the PEACE are loosely connected to the Hive. Currently in the Hive we are still talking sweet about CC so hopefully they are still not driving into the uni's arm yet. In fact I don't remember if anybody has relayed this information to you, that Jamski had made a deal with the CyCon, that they will vote for us for governor in exchange for uni and PEACE infiltration information.

Techwise since we are pacted one another, almost everybody can see where everybody else is regarding tech reseaching. So it will not be a secret to the uni when you are going to get air power and MMI and we can see what tech uni has also. Right now uni is researching Environmental Economics and not on track of getting DAP yet. Hopefully they will not be well prepared when we are ready to go to war.

[Snowflake]

My message at the CC Embassy:

Sorry that I have been swampt by the Hive internal matters and wasn't able to visit the Embassy for a while. Anyway here's a short update on what happened and is heppening within the Hive.

Following the early retirement of Comrade Kody and leave of absence of myself the Hive had entered a period of hibernation when nobody moved or talked. At the point of risk that we will miss a crucial turn Jamski planned a coup to overthrow the inactive Chairman. He also submited a badly done turn while not realizing that Comrade Kody had already finished the turn. You will read more information from the upcoming Pravda which will feature the Jamski trial and articles about people starving and war, etc.

The coup and failed turn senerio had caused great chaos inside the Hive. The Chairman had announced the dissolvement of the government and the start of a restructure. Many people go out to the street shouting and cheering. Comrades start to come back to the office and start to work for the party and people.

Currently the restructuring is not completed yet. The future Hive goverment is planned to consist four department:
Comrade dacole will lead the Department of Homeland Central Planning;
Comrade Octavian X will lead the Commission of Foreign Relations;
Marshal Rokossovky has come back to the Hive and will lead the Central Military Committee ;
We are still looking for a suitable candidate who could lead the Department of Science and Social Engineering.

Within the CFR, individual Ambassadors will be assiged to each faction. I have expressed my interest of continuing to work with my dearest CC friends.

Regarding previous CC message to the Hive, I will try to secure an official reply from the Hive government later. However I can personally assure you that the Hive will continue to honor all prior agreements with the CC including the agreement on governor election and infitration information. (We are not planning to call for an election in the upcoming couple turns although it may be called by the AIs). Also, I will try to push discussions about what type of prototyped units would Hive like to trade with you. We are close to getting Eco Eng ourselves even if we are not going to be able to finish trade with the university. Therefore I foresee some trades should be possible between us. Last, I would like to inqury when the CyCon decides to enter the pact with the Hive.

I may not be seen here very frequently since currently I am trying to fill in each and every empty space that are left by unworking officials and help with all the new departments. But I will try my best to check here daily so I could convey any message from the CyCons to the Hive.

Ambassador HongHu

[Snowflake]

Also the CC has been complaining about the shortage of landmarks. See here.

Kody told them in the CC embassy that he had stored some landmark names for the CC.

I foresaw this would happen so I stored some landmark names that I figured would go to the cycon when they would need them. Ask the hive to release them to you.

Hopefully someone from the hive can figured out where I've hidden them. It not very obvious at all.

[Snowflake]

Cycon Comunicay

Greatings Honored Hivarian Member, I bring a Comunicay from the Cybernetic Conciounus:

Cycon is interested in aquiring the F4 and F7 screens of PEACE. We are prepared to offer a sum of Energy Credits as we know you are currently uninterested in tecnologies. It should be know that this information like all information becomes inheriently less valuable the longer it is delayed in reaching us and it is vitavl to restart diplomatic relations and conduct the desired exchange whial it reamains mutualy benifitial.

Conserning PUT. They have asked us for Aplied Physics which they lack. We are hoping that we can get ecological Enginering from them in exchange, though this seems unlikly at best. We would much rather obtain Ecological Enginering from a trusted faction like the Hive then from a potentialy advasary, and we worry that PUT might start reaserching Military tecnologies once they have the Pre-Reqs. If you know what PUT is currently researching this could help us to perhaps mutualy exploit the situation somehow. Though we thank you for the offer PUT information is not currently required by our networks, though it might be desirble to aquire it at some later date. We were curious if the offer was tied into Votes or not and how you view the Vote issue.

Pacting as you know is not possible in the imediate future but we are hopefull it will be conducted as the earliest Possible convenience.

Copies of this Comunicay have been sent to HongHu, Octavian_X and Voltaire as we will try to do from now on to enshure high bandwith comunications are maintained. We ask that you triplicate your PM responses and direct copies to Manic, Drouge and Impaler[WrG].

[Snowflake]

I have confirmed the recipient of the message and here's a followup message.

Re: Cycon Comunicay

Thanks for your Rapid reply, I am not the Official Cycon Ambasador. I am currently the Internal Affairs Function and it wouldn't normaly be my job to send comunication. But our real External Affairs Function Drouge is inactive (I am noticing this is a consisted problem with our External Affairs functions) so this forces the rest of us to pick up the slack. Manic has authorized me to contact you and conduct what ever comunications I can acomplish as he is overworked and cant do them himself (spliting time between this game and the Police state game the way he is).

For the time being asume we dont have a dedicated ambasador and send comunications it the Cycon network in general which at present only has about 3 active (Manic, WIA and me) and 2 semi-active members (Drouge, Laurientus).

Our turn will probly get played this weekend, if your able to give a response soon we may be able to incorporate our response in this turn. I though will be working this weekend so dont expect much further from me, everyone else though should be more active on the weekend.

If we want the prototype we need to let them know before they play the turn this weekend.

[Voltaire]

Yes, we also need to decide as to how we are going to respond to the CyCon request to buy PEACE intelligence.

[Snowflake]

I think Jamski had an agreement with them but it was supposed to happen after the governor election?

BTW have we released any landmarks for the CC? If so I'd like to notify them.

[Snowflake]

I think it may be ok to trade the PEACE info with them for prototype? Also we are giving them the landmark for a gift.

If they could get eco eng from uni it might be good to arrange a trade for it from them before we get the tech ourselves so we could switch. We could offer them to give them the next tech perhaps.

[Snowflake]

I sent the following message to them while I'm waiting for everybody to weigh in this. If I don't hear from anybody I will go ahead to issue the official reply and don't blame me if there's something you don't agree in there.

I will also propose to replace the department heads who has not been carrying out his duty. I understand it is the weekend. Please also understand that I am under the pressure of filing on Monday and haven't been really sleeping but I am still trying my best to take care of the Hive affairs.

Please advice when you are planning the turn. I'm still trying to gather opinions in my faction. We might want to trade the info you needed with our prototype request, also I'm interested in getting eco eng from you if you will get it from uni with the promise after three turns we get env eco and give it to you. But I have not get enough feedback yet so I would appreciate if you could let me know what is the latest time you need my feedback. The second tech trade thing do not need to be decided right now but if you'd agree to trade prototype unit with infiltration info I'd hope you could start building it this turn (that is if you don't have one that's already available). BTW if you have msn my email is hhu003 at mchsi.com.

[Snowflake]

From Maniac

Greetings Ambassador HongHu and other Hiveans,

I would like to elaborate a bit on the communiqué Function Impaler has sent to the Hive Embassy recently. There he makes the proposal of giving a sum of energy credits in exchange for infiltrator information on PEACE, more precisely the F4 Production and Garrison screens, and the F7 Military Nexus screens. This is a change from our previous position to give our planetary council votes in exchange for full PEACE and PUT information. While years ago that information had a very high value for us as we feared for our defence after we broke the pact, now the situation has evolved and we have been forced to adapt our intelligence services to living without the Hive information we had long hoped for. As a consequence the value of PEACE and PUT infiltrator information has already seriously decreased and in the future its value will approach zero for us. Therefore the External Affairs Functionality no longer felt it even to trade votes against infiltrator information, and thus our new proposal to offer a moderate sum of energy credits in exchange for a small part of the PEACE information you have.

The story regarding technology trades is a bit similar. Because the Hivean Foreign Affairs Department kept silent, we have been forced to adapt and look elsewhere. We are currently negotiating with PUT regarding technologies such as EcoEng and Gene Splicing, technologies which you also have or will have IIRC. However we would of course prefer to trade with you. Therefore I was wondering if you could tell us a more exact date on when you could acquire EcoEng, so we know whether or not it is worth continuing negotiations with PUT on that matter? Please also know that if the Hive still does not want techs in return for techs but only units, that we will be unable to repay you in the near future.

Regarding the pact, we would love to pact with you, but cannot at the moment for security reasons. In the future a pact should be possible and likely though. :-)

[Snowflake]

my reply

Dear Function Maniac,

I can sense and I understand the CC's frustration regarding the Hive CC trading relationship. The sad truth is it looks like I am still the only one who works for the Hive. The restruction is kind of successful since some people has stepped up and claimed for the office and now they are even very actively recruiting "assistants". The problem is that other than claiming for office and recruting people who they can take charge of they have not been doing much other works (other than dacole I should say for he actually worked for the last turn). Whileas I have been working without sleep for my own RL filing (Monday) as well as for all the Hive affairs.

Anyway regarding infiltration information. That is a negligent fault on my part. I had assumed that the deal Jamski reached with you is that after the Hive became the governor then we would supply with you the info. But I now realize that you would need the info before that and it is actually very sensible. I don't know how I could have not seen it before. Please accept my apology for it. I will try to open the turn tonight and make sure I obtain all the info F4 and F7 info to be released to you once it gets approved by the Hive.

Regarding tech trade, the Hive can give you gene splicing the next turn we play it. This will be given to you without asking anything in return at the same time. We would however ask you to build a prototype with the cruiser base and the special ability to attack from sea. I am not very familiar with the game myself but you can consider my word to be official regarding trading with you since I have decided to take charge since nobody else is.

I'm still in hope of a more healthy relationship with the CC in the future. Therefore I would try my best to facilitate any possible trading opportunities and other coorperations between us. I hope we could discuss more later regarding further tech tradings.

We were scheduled to get eco eng the next turn but because of the stuff up by the turn players of the last two turns basically we have not gained much tech development so we are still 3 (or 2 not 100% sure sorry will check tonight if I have time) turns away. Uni is closer to getting env eco then us I believe so if you give them AP then they could perhaps reseach more advanced military tech if they desire. I am not fit to give any military related opinions so I guess it will be your call whether to trade them AP. I will however convey to you when and if somebody else who has more experience than me offers any viewpoint from the Hive.

Please point out any problems you see since this post is written in a hurry. I will copy this to function Impalor. I am really busy at the moment. My filing is on Monday and I still haven't quite finished all the work yet. But I will try my best to accomodate your request.

[Snowflake]

I really wish somebody would work a little to reduce my load.

[Voltaire]

The suggestion is that we tell the CyCon we will have EE in 2 turns, and that if they trade with us we will also include the PEACE intelligence information as a gift for their patience. After this has been done, I frankly think we should go all out and offer the CyCon a Pact, since well they are eager to improve relations with us.

Even if this results in PEACE breaking the Pact with us it will not matter much given that the CyCon would be more valuable allies. Furthermore, PEACE really has no real reason to break the pact, all we are doing is entering into stronger diplomatic ties with the CyCon, our Pact with them does not specify we cannot do as such. Therefore I think this the best course of action.

[Snowflake]

We have already offered CC a pact. It is they who do not want to pact with us because we are pacting with PEACE. So the situation you described - we pact with CC and PEACE does or does not break pact with us - is unlikely to happen in my opinion.