Official: CyCon negotiations - Page 6

Snowflake · December 13, 2003, 09:33

My PM:

Quote:

Sorry I was not able to respond sooner. Was busy on something else RL last night.

I believe if you agree to the nonproliferation term and then trade eco eng to us then uni is bound to find out since you and us will both get eco eng and then env eco within couple turns. On the other hand if you try to negotiate this term out then uni may well aware your intention of trading it and stop this trade. That almost mean to me that the eco eng - env eco deal of us are not going to work. Of course it may not matter to you if you are prepared to going into war with uni soon and tricking an enemy to get the most out of it before it becomes an enemy is a valid tactic. Me personally always try to keep whatever promise I made to whoever but I will not judge anybody's right to do otherwise.

So anyway I would assume the eco eng - env eco deal is off. We have not played the turn last night. The decision was dacole will play it sometime today and if not heard otherwise he will not slow our reseach rate. The SotHB deal we have more time to negotiate. However I hate to tell you that my idea of SotHB only for Gene Splicing has not flied within Hive. That means if you want Gene Splicing you need to add to SotHB for Hive to see a worth trade.

I appreciate all the effort CyCons have made. Please let me know if you somehow are able to get PUT to agree not include the non proliferation term.

Octavian X · December 14, 2003, 00:54

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu

PM sent.

Thanks.

And, good work involving Cycon. Stay the friendly course we've pursued so far.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 01:14

From Maniac:

Quote:

Hi HongHu,

SotHB is completely useless for us now. It would just mean increasing our research cost. If besides that we would also have to research a second tech Neural Grafting, which in itself seems like sufficient payment for Gene Splicing, such a deal seems rather non-profitable IMHO.
May I ask why you ask such a high price for Gene Splicing? Is it because you consider SotHB completely worthless as well, or is it because you attach a very high value to Gene Splicing for some reason?
Anyway, I was wondering, would the Hive be willing to accept a deal like follows:
MY 2150 or '51: you offer us Gene Splicing pre-accepted, so we can immediately accept it the same turn.
MY 2151: we offer you Adaptive Economics back pre-accepted. Due to the turn order, you would get that MY 2152 IIRC.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
Prime Function of the Cybernetic Consciousness

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 01:15

My reply:

Quote:

Dear Function Maniac,

Yes you are right about SotHB. The Hive does not value it very high. The only reason we proposed it in the trade is because we did not know what other techs you have that can be traded with Gene Splicing. The only tech we know that you have for trade was initiative, which the Hive does not want. However we know that you wanted Gene Splicing, and that you may be able to get SotHB, thus the proposal. Now I'm glad to hear that we have other choices. I will for sure to convey this message back to the Hive.

I still haven't heard back from you regarding the other part of the proposal. I do not know what is your long term strategy in terms of other factions. However the Hive has strived to be open toward the CyCons. My feeling is if we could achieve a higher level of trust it will definitely facilitate many transactions between us. For example I have asked about CC's current research but have not got an answer. If I'd known that you have adaptive economics before we would certainly have given it a thorough discussion and perhaps we could reach a trade sooner. Please be assured that I'm not pushing you for anything you are not ready for. I'm simply expressing again the Hive's willingness of furthering our relationship and I'm sure we will work out the best.

HongHu

Kody · December 17, 2003, 02:25

We should probably build more crawlers.

We would need 10 crawlers to instant build the planetary energy grid and only 3 available within range of any one base. Anyway, we've been low on crawlers for a while, so even if we don't get the SP the crawlers would be the best short term investment for our economy.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 11:07

Do we want to agree to preaccept?

Kody · December 17, 2003, 11:21

Yeah why not.

Better they betray us on a not so important tech trade than when we're really vulnerable.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 11:54

Ok I am going to write a message to CC expressing our acceptance of this deal. If anybody has any disagreement please state so right now.

Kody · December 17, 2003, 12:02

Just wait here's an extension to the deal.

________________________________

Gene splicing for adaptive economics, as recently suggested. However, if the hive managed to build the planetary energy grid, we'll be willing to immediately trade you the second tech in exchange for a impact weapon prototype (the 2nd tech payed in advance).

I think a impact infantry is only 2 rows, and the hive will be willing to wait a few years for it. One of the hive players saw the AI already has impact and I'm sure you can trade it from them fairly easily. Anyway the hive needs better than 2-1-1 troops if you're going to use us to keep the university off your back.

Possibly allow for SotHB instead of impact weapons.

The reason why we would like impact weapon prototypes is to do with unit costs. Weapon damage 4 is the same cost as 1 or 2 strength weapons. While 6 requires an extra row of minerals. During our battle with the university we might need the two row 4-1-10 needlejets, as it will be cheaper than 3 row 6-1-10 needlejets.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 12:07

Good point. So we don't want the amphbious ability and cruiser shell, instead only ask for impact? Or do we ask all of them at once.

Also we could tell them the Peace has started reseaching impact.

Kody · December 17, 2003, 12:14

Tired will talk more tomorrow, still have to get around to reading all the topped threads.

Kody · December 17, 2003, 12:17

Idea is to keep the trade simple as possible for them. Asking for amphbious and cruiser too hasn't been welcomed. So the trouble they feel isn't worth the cost of getting a tech.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 12:31

Actually Drogue has indicated in a chat with me once that since they are going with the war, they actually feel they could easily lend us a foil with the unit on it. The only thing I don't know is if we trade Gene Splicing with Adaptive Eco and if they've got eco eng from uni then what other techs we could trade for the prototyped unit. Also not sure how valuable of lending a foil with a impact amphbious unit is to the CC compare to whatever tech we will give them. I'm assuming the tech trade would be environmental eco but we won't get it in a while. Don't know if we have any other techs they want. Maybe I need to chat with somebody from CC again.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 15:09

Who has impact?

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 15:19

I posted in CC embassy:

Quote:

I now understand that CC is planing to steal Adaptive Eco and then trade with us. If possible I would still like to know a list of the tech CC currently has and is reaching. This will make trade talks much easier.

Anyway the trade of adapt eco for Gene Splicing is acceptable for the Hive. As for further potential trades, I would like to know if the CC has obtained eco eng from the uni and what other techs CC is interested to trade with the Hive. Function Drogue had indicated that since CC is preparing for war, to lend the Hive couple units and then get it back may be an acceptable approach to the CC. The prototyped units the Hive interested is impact amphbious and cruiser. However we can certainly negotiate more when we know which tech will be traded for them.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 17:43

Drogue:

Quote:

I'm all for the Adapt Eco for GS trade with the Hive

And personally I'll go for trading a unit for a tech with both a cruiser and an impact marine, however that is not cleared yet.

Sadly, we haven't been able to get Eco Eng from PUT. We are still trying IIRC though.

Snowflake · December 17, 2003, 17:43

Me:

Quote:

If you are not able to secure the trade with PUT you could get eco eng from the Hive with the prototype trade.

Kody · December 17, 2003, 22:33

As a bonus for getting the planetary energy grid. Offer the cycon as a seperate deal from gene splicing.

If the hive manages to build the planetary energy grid we'll give the eco eng for either, impact prototype, SotHB, or prototype.

Or another deal is we give ethicial calculus for free if we build the planetary energy grid.

If we don't manage to build the Planetary Energy Grid the offer will be a cruiser and an impact marine for ecological engineering.
_____________________________________

If we start preparing now it might be possible to instant build the Planetary Energy Grid in 3 turns. So the cycon will have the tech they need fairly soon.

Snowflake · December 18, 2003, 00:34

PM from Impalor:

Quote:

Thanks for the Input HongHu, that trade would be another nice one as we wouldn't have to get it from Uni which was a plan. But if PEACE indeed has Gene Splicing we might be able to steal it from them, if not then we would be most eager to get it from the Hive.

Another Hive tec that we are interested in is Doc Loyalty, this would alow us to go for Int Int and the CDF, we dont expect the Hive to be very intersted in CDF and we could deny our mutual enemies from acuiring it. Cycon could compensate with unit prototypes possibly doing this as a side deal involving Eco Eng.

When its more clear what the outcome of our war is and what paths each of us wishes to take beyond restriction lifting (I imagine yall will go Env Eco next followed by Planetary Eco and then perhaps Nural Grafting). Then we can trade more efficiently.

Snowflake · December 18, 2003, 16:53

My post at the embassy

Quote:

1) Gene Splicing trade for Adaptive Economics
2) Eco Eng trade for design of an impact marine and a cruiser, the units will be returned only the design will be retained.
3) CC gives Hive list of techs that it obtained and is obtaining
4) Hive gives CC PEACE infiltration data
5) Hive open to any other trade / coorperation proposals by CC

Please give me an official response then we can work out the details.

Snowflake · December 18, 2003, 18:09

Me again:

Quote:

I've also taken note about CC's interest in Loyalty. I'll talk to others about it see what we can do.

Kody · December 18, 2003, 20:33

http://www.civgaming.net/forums/show...985#post100985

I've caught the cycon outright lying to us on issues they thought we didn't know about...

Just wondering if we should change our stance towards them.

Also I suggest we get rid of enmiga_nova, I suspect he's feeding information to the cycon about us.

Snowflake · December 19, 2003, 12:18

I'm convinced about CC's loyalty to us after some conversations with Drogue and Mianic. (Please read my new posts at the embassy.)

Could somebody deliever the PEACE infiltration data to the CCs as we commited?

Snowflake · December 27, 2003, 23:10

My post at the CC embassy:

Quote:

Dear Functions of the CyCon: Over the years since the Hive and the CyCons met each other, our relationship has grown steadily and healthily. The Hive has offered the CyCons a pact proposal and is now happy to learn that the current situation finally warrants the realization of such a pact. We realize that there does not seem to be enough support from either the Hive or the CyCons for a cooperative victory. However, we wish to reaffirm our best intention of peace and friendship toward the CyCons and hope that we will be able to pursue a deeper relationship that are beneficial to both factions in the future.

Voltaire · December 27, 2003, 23:22

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
I'm convinced about CC's loyalty to us after some conversations with Drogue and Mianic. (Please read my new posts at the embassy.)

I for one am not, the CyCon can very well betray us and the planetary governorship votes will work as evidence toward whether the CyCon are on our side or not.

Snowflake · December 27, 2003, 23:38

They did vote for us according to them.

Snowflake · December 27, 2003, 23:40

I should also state that I have chatted with Drogue and Maniac before they play the last turn. Basically I informed them that Kody and other players in the forum has changed their view toward perm pacting with CC and it is likely that we won't be able to stick to the end with the CC. I also stated that I still hope the sentiment can be changed. I didn't want them to enter the pact with a false rosy hope and wish to give them the opportunity to back from our pact offer if they want to. They chose to stick with us in the end. But I think I may need to apologize to Kody for putting him ahead as the representation of the change in the sentiment of the Hive.

Tass talked to me today accusing me breaking the rule and leaking information. If he decided that I did break the rule I will be happy to comply with his ruling. Although it will be sad to leave you all, I will have to live with my broken heart.

Of course it isn't the first time tass accuse me of something. There is still a thread in the forum that he accused me of something. Till today I have not been made clear what he was supposed to accuse me in that thread. I have confronted him and all he said was "never mind". As crazy as tass and even if I'm his friend or I thought I am I still don't think a moderator should go around accusing people like that. I refuse to be bullied by anybody. I will do what I think is right and I will take responsibility of what I do. I don't mind to give up anything for what I believe is right. Even if that means I have to die, I will be happy and proud to die for what I believe.

Nubclear · December 27, 2003, 23:54

Honghu, you know I love you.
However you are correct this is not the first time you have been accused. The first time I cleared you. The second time...well, you have not been cooperating so it makes it difficult to clear your name.
If you would simply co-operate with me this could be very easy.

Googlie · December 28, 2003, 00:55

HH:

Aren't you the official Hive Ambassador to the CyCon anyway?

If so (and that was my understanding) you are at liberty to divulge anything to the CyCon

G.

Nubclear · December 28, 2003, 01:00

I did not realize this (As CyCon was quite panicky about keeping it secret). This case is shut closed.
Sorry for accusing you Honghu

Will you forgive me?