Lord of the Rings V4: Event.txt

[Sieve Too]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who finds this scenario very difficult. Even Xin Yu is having problems! I'd like to be able to win without resorting to "diplomacy gymnastics."

Harlan: The readme.txt files say that the version at ACS is version 4 while St. Leo seems to have version 4.1. Is there a difference?

Also, readme.txt gives incorrect unit stats for almost every Mordor, Harad and Rhun unit. Specifically, it tends to claim that the bad guys have 1 FP when they really have 2 FP. I finally peeked in rules.txt after my attacking Knights lost for the 3rd time against Orcs on grass or plains. Sadly, this makes the Knight unit completely pointless. It can't defeat anything.

Since bad guys have FP of 2, I tend to attack them with vet Galleys, since this reduces the bad guys FP to 1 for the battle. This adds a more naval flavor to the scenario then I expected.

My usual problem in the scenario is one of time - there just isn't enough. You can't really do much offensively until Mordor runs out of units and money and until you've taken Barad Dur. Even then, most Mordor cities are in hills or mountains, meaning you need whatever heros you have left to defeat them. The isolated cities to the north on plains are hard to take because they each have a Dragon. By the time you do get to use the ring there isn't much time left. Given the vastness of Mordor, Harad and Rhun, even if you somehow managed to take two cities per turn, you'd still run out of time.

One more gripe (although there's probably not much that can be done about it): Nazgul can kill Gandalf too easily just by attacking whatever city he happens to land in. Regardless of who you have defending in the city, CivII always looks first for units with the "can attack other air units" flag when being attacked by air. What you get is that "Gandalf scrambles to defend " message. Even with x4 defense, Gandalf's D=1 leaves him toasted against Nazgul.

All that being said, this is the best scenario I've ever played and I've enjoyed more than any other!

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Glad that you are interested in the scenario.

You are right that you can only attack with your heros, eagles, and ents (ents can reach Isengard and several Mordor cities if carefully planned). The basic tactic is, therefore, to let the enemy attack you. I'm testing a tactic to use the dwarfs to build fortresses next to enemy cities so the enemy will attack you instead of defending the cities.

This is what I called 'camping strategy' (you camp every turn in hostile territory): Find a good defense position and use dwarfs (protected by Gollum if not enough moving points) to build a fortress, and wait for the enemy units to waste themselves. Moving ahead while building fortresses until you can build one beside an enemy city.

Still the dragon cities are tough. See if you can lure the dragons out and kill them when they are on grass or occupy the city while the dragon is out.

Edit: More strategy:
You can use settlers instead of dwarfs to build fortress when attack the southern enemy cities but settlers move slower and you need other units (Hobbits and Elvens) for defense. Gandalf can protect the settlers before they finish the fortresses.
If possible, always kill Trolls, Olog-Hais and Wolves before they can attack you.
Legolas has advantage against mumakil.
Instead of killing the Nazguls north of Hobbiton, you can trap them with your units (block their way back to the city). First turn use all available units (including one ranger), then substitute them with cheap ones. After the ranger is substuted, the Nazgul will (eventually) attack one of your units and crash (it will not reborn).
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 16, 2000).]

[Sieve Too]

Thanks for the help Xin Yu!

I'll have to try that Dwarf strategy. I usually use Gollum to protect Frodo and the Ring since they die too easily without protection. If you lose the Ring, you are completely screwed and you might as well quit (I do). One question: How many Dwarves do you use in your stack? Don't they get too damaged from Wainriders and Easterlings to attack the Rhun cities? Do you send Settlers to build up the Iron Hills due to the population loss when building Dwarves?

As to Settlers, I usually rush buy a few and send them all to cities that get attacked alot (Pelagir, Belfalas, etc) so that they can mine grass to forests. This is often enough to defeat attacking Orcs and it prevents all but the most nasty attackers from defeating more than one Pikeman before having to retreat/rest.

Do you need to cover every square around the Nazgul to get it to attack instead of just going around or just sitting there?

A chain of Longboats from Hobbiton to the south of Gondor? IIRC, Hobbiton is not that close to the ocean and Hobbits are pretty slow (m=1, all as roads) and cheap units are even slower (m=1). How many Longboats do you need? I'm not sure the same strategy would work with Dwarves since Mordor always seems to have a Dromund or two in the narrow river (The R. Sirion IIRC) to kill off your Longboats.

Ents and Eagles? Do Longboats also carry air units? I must have missed that. Ents could be used as blockers/killers to prevent Dromund from getting to your Longboats if they could refuel periodically on the Longboats.

I often have a problem with the Nazgul attacking Eagle's Eerie (builder of the Eagle unit) and attacking my Eagles in general. They get the air vs. Helo advantage and always win, regardless of terrain, vet status, fortified For the city, I usually leave Merry fortified there since he has double defense vs. Air.

In turn one, I send Gandalf to attack one of those fortified Orcs in the mountains between Rivendell and Eagle's Eerie. This accomplishes three things: 1) Gandalf takes a beating but almost always gets vet status. 2) Damaged Eagles have a quick path to Rivendell where the only Airport in the whole scenario is. 3) It opens a path to let me send Merry to Eagle's Eerie quickly. The bad news is that you tie up Gandalf for three turns right off the bat (attack, go back, rest) and Merry for a long time (until you destroy the Nazgul with the Ring) Sound like a good plan or am I wasting these valuable units?

Finally: Got any ideas on how to quicken the first death of Eomer and Eowyn?

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: I cannot answer all questions since the strategy is still in testing phase.

Dwarfs: 4 dwarfs should be enough if you don't use them to attack cities. You can use eagles to attack. Gollum can protect them if they need rest. Use one of them to occupy a city and back to full blood. I'm hoping that Rhun will use all units to attack and the defense will be pretty weak. After defeating Rhun you can use its cities as the base to provide settlers and units for Iron Hills to produce more dwarfs.

Gandalf should kill a Nazgul (the one southwest of Rivendale) on turn 1. If he loses he'll reborn and attack again. This is the Nazgul which will threaten Eagles Eerie. After defeating it the Eagles are safe. Then you use Gandalf to defeat Saruman, then come back to clear the way to the East and let him attack the forest Mordor cities.
(Edit: I don't want to use Gandalf for the Southern front since the Witch King is a threat to him).

Aragon should be able to defend Rivendale but you need to make him vet first (I'm not sure since I haven't tested it). Afterwards he can join Gandalf for the forest battles.
(Edit: Non-vet Aragon can defeat Nazgul. Aragon protected by Gollum will be very good in attacking Mordor cities early in the game).

Radagast can move to South and kill reborn Nazguls (Again not sure if it works). He can also kill the Mordor ships there.
(Edit: Radagast cannot attack air units. It's better to use it to escort the eagles to the Rhun lake. Once the eagles gets there nobody can attack them. Later Radagast can be sent to the South to protect the troops attacking Harad).

It takes 3 turns for the Hobbits to get to a coastal city, then they'll arrive in the front instantly. You have to build a city on the way though (there is one land block). It takes several turns to set up since The coastal city on the hobbit side cannot build ships. Back trip is actually faster if you use fast moving cheap units (knights, for example). You don't need a lot of longboats. It just take less turns to send units around if you do. One hobbit per coastal city with coastal fortress and walls should be enough to protect your coastal line.
(Edit: Hobbit must be vet to win. Also, moving Legolas to the Southern front is very important due to his advantage against Harad. Gomli can defend the Hobbit cities after the Nazguls crash. You can move a spy bird to the area for patrol, then use Gomli to kill the enemy units before they can attack you).

You don't need to totally circle the Nazgul, you can leave the Southwest corner open (it does not have enough moving points to get back from that direction). I think once all surrounding units are land units it will attack; but if you have an air unit it will try to attack the air one so it won't crash (?).
(Edit: Confirmed).

Longboats do not carry air units. You have to build cities for the Ents to have a rest.

Eomer and Eowyn: No Idea.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Harlan]

Looks like you guys are coming up with some really good ideas. However, Xin Yu, regarding getting your units quickly south via peace with Isengard, my attitude is that any sort of jump like that is not allowed. The whole point of the scenario is the journey from Hobbit lands to Mt. Doom and any such jump relying on a quirk of Civ2 ruins everything.

I like all your other strategies, though. Xin Yu, by the way, have you actually played it through to the end (without jumping!) or are you still getting there?

[Xin Yu]

Harlan: For any scenario I usually play to a point when the outcome is clear (I even wrote a strategy for RedFront without finishing it). In this sense my first try was a failure (not enough turns to occupy all Mordor cities).

This time I'm confident that the outcome will be different. There are still some choices to make. For example, whether to use Gandalf and Aragon to defeat the Witch King and all Nazguls, or to use them to attack Mordor cities. I'm going to try the latter (huge amount of money for each Mordor city occupied, should be enough to cover the losses), but it may turned out to be a bad choice.

BTW, for testing the strength of Mordor unique units I have opened the cheat mode and did some experiments. I could not find Shelob. Did you forget to add it?

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Some new findings.

Frodo and the Ring does not need much protection if they go due South and Pippin is with them. Use your spy bird and longboats to patrol the path. Whenever there's danger, move them to a longboat.

Another route is to go due East and pass the mountains via Rivendell. Let Gollum meet them on the other side.

Vet Aragon on mountain can defeat Witch King (even twice in the same turn). So if you put Frodo, the ring, Aragon, and an air unit (Gandalf, Radagast, Gollum) together and make sure they end up in a mountain square, you are quite safe when approaching Mt. Dooms. As far as you stay 3 squares away from Barad-dur, Sarun is not likely to come out of the city to attack you. From either North or West there are mountains 3 squares away from Barad-dur.

[Sieve Too]

Harlan: Is the latest version 4.1 (at St Leo's site) or ver 4 at ACS? At the very least, the readme.txt is different.

Xin Yu: Dang you're clever! You say you only lost your first game?!?! I'm now going on my 5th try!

As I mentioned before, I usually use Gollum to protect Fordo and the Ring, along with Sam. When I get near Barad Dur, I try to stop in a mountain 3 squares due north or due west of the city. Then I move Gollum or Sam one square closer. If Sauron comes out, he'll have to kill Gollum or Sam first and then he won't have enough movement points to attack Frodo. Another advantage you gain by occupying the square 2 squares from Barad Dur is that another Mordor unit can't sit in in, blocking you from using the Ring. Has anyone tried attacking a unit 1 square from Barad Dur? This should kill Sauron and the others too.

I believe you are correct about Rhun attacking with all they've got and leaving cities poorly defended. I've tried a similar thing in Harad using Aragorn and Legolas (Is his bonus due to the Partisan-vs-0-attack bonus?). You can capture the city closest to Belfalas easily due to Aragorn's amphibious flag and Legolas' bonus vs. Mumakil. After taking it, Harad throws about 15-20 Haradrim at you over the course of the next 3 or 4 turns. Just sit tight behind walls and wait it out. Afterwards, Harad's cities will only be protected by one Mumakil and one or two Pikemen - easy pickings. Interestingly, Harad gets a free Dromund every 2 or 3 turns in that first city even after you capture it. You can click on it and although you can't move it, you can disband it for 30 free shields! Rhun should be even easier to take since they don't have a unit like the Mumakil.

Protecting the Hobbits: I generally just use the two Ranger units for protection. You have an infinite supply as long as they die in battle and not from lack of movement points.

Saruman: Even vet Gandalf can only defeat him if he's on grass, plains or ocean due to his very high defense, hp and fp. Isengard is surrounded by mountains, hills, forest, rivers and fortresses. I hate to have Gandalf wait around for Saruman to land on one of the few advantageous squares. Also, Saruman is one of the few units that can defeat Eomer and Eowyn so I am reluctant to take him out too early. If I can get either Eowyn or Eomer to Minas Tirith, the city will never fall.

Saruman will often come out to try to attack an Ent (he can't). By occasionally alternating Ents, Saruman will sit there forever and never move again. You can take Isengard right out from under him with Gandalf and some other units. Since Saruman is supported from Isengard, you can defeat him without ever attacking him.

Nazgul: When a stack of more than one Nazgul is defeated, only one gets reborn due to some quirk in the way CivII handles events. Just like Saruman with the Ents, the Nazgul try to attack Rangers and often stack themselves in the process. This is an excellent time for Gandalf to attack.

Aragorn: Much as I would like to use him to attack the cities in the north, I try to rush him to the south asap in anticipation of using him against The Grond. Faramir can't always defeat The Grond while Aragorn can (and from the safety of a ship).

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Nice observation on Saruman. I have found that as well. The first 4 Orcs in Isengard was tough (only Vet Gandalf and Treebeard can defeat them), so I still feel that Gandalf should be moved there for the job. Afterwards it's easy. However you need to move a landunit there to occupy it, that's tricky.

Aragorn is the best unit and you only have one. Like I said it's a tough choice. I prefer to occupy Mordor cities and get a lot of cash for supporting the war. Aragorn plus Gandalf can eliminate the first two tough units in the city, then the eagles can get the job done.

you can use a eagle to stay on a lake square to produce ZOC and protect the Carrock.
Edit: Eagles and other air units don't produce ZOC if on lake.

Edit: You can use Radagast to attack the Grond.

Edit: 3 Dwarfs along the river defeated a dozen of Rhun attackers. Gollum and the Eagle King protected another river. Soon the Rhun will have no attacking units and the dwarfs and eagles can finish them. Rhuns have archers (x2 vs. air flag) so I prefer to use dwarfs to attack.

Harad have too many ships, got to find a way to get rid of them.

Use Gandalf to punch a hole in the Orcs wall (two squares west of eagles eerie) and move Gomli and Boromir to Eagles Eerie then watch the Mordor units waste against it. Meanwhile eagles can sit on the lake squares and pick up wolves. Don't let them go too south. A nazgul may appear there.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: How's everything going? I haven't started the second try yet but I'm testing verious tactics.

First I'm testing using vet Gallery to defend against the Harad ships. Longboats have move 8, so I send them out 4 squares away to see if a Harad ships is there. Then I use a vet Gallery to attack before they reach the shore.

Another thing I'm testing is the 'Nazgul trap'. I have figured out a way to let them crash. I think it is possible to get 3 Nazguls and the Witch King crash by themselves. By placing 5-7 units strategically on the returning route of the enemy air units, they will crash regardless of moving points. I even figured out a way to let them crash without killing one of my units, but it is difficult to execute.

-----x---------
------xy-------
----oooxoC-----
---o--x--------
--o--x---------
-N-------------
The above is one type of the trap. N=Nazgul, C=Closest Enemy City. o=the Nazgul's return route. x=entrapment units. If all 'x' units have 'x2 against air' flag then the Nazgul will look for other target to kill (once it realizes it will not make to the city), for example, the unit one 'y'. However it may never get there so the Nazgul will crash withouth killing any units. (I put a ranger on 'y' and archers on 'x', haven't tried other types of units on 'y'.)

[PolarisGL]

Guys, the Art of War needs this kind of thinking. Possible strategies for the scenario?

[Xin Yu]

George: I sure will write one, if I can, in your words, turn it into a piece of cake.

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Longboat can see two as well. Two longboats should be enough to check the area. Drumond and Galley both have move 5, so it works perfect. If a Drumond is 6 squares away you need to send troops to coastal squares to prevent landing. If closer than that, you can attack.

I use high moving units for Nazgul traps. Archers are too slow. But theoretically you can use archers.

[PolarisGL]

Indeed Xin. You've won the General of the Month once, and I have three patches to sew. Whoever submits the longest Lord of the Rings strategy wins the June award.

[Sieve Too]

Haven't had a chance to play in a while The Nazgul trap looks interesting but setting it up must be difficult. Archers are only m=1 units so you risk the Nazgul picking them off as they are moved into position over the course of several turns. Even with rivers and roads, Nazgul generate ZOC making it hard to move around them.

Harad Dromunds: Longboats can go 4 out and back but Dromund have fairly high movement IIRC so you might not see them. I usually move the Spy Bird from Minas Tirith to Belfalas and use it to check for Dromund. Spy Bird has m=20 and can see 2 squares so it is usually sufficient. As you undoubtably discovered, if you do nothing the Dromund attack en masse and overwhelm Belfalas. In fact, if you let even one Dromund land its units, you are screwed since one will be a vet Mumakil and they are very hard to defeat.
Vet Galleys vs. Dromund are your only hope to keep the coastal Gondor cities so must rush buy a few.

Vet Galleys can also protect your city between Pelagir and Belfalas (forget the name). When the Haradrim breakthrough and attack the city, they will kill a Pikeman. Since the squares they attack from are plains or grass, vet Galleys can counter attack and take them out (since they lose their fp of 2 when attacked by ships). The city is on a river so once you mine it to forest, 2 vet Dunedain are usually enough to hold off the Haradrim.

I usually build a couple vet Galleys for Minas Tirith to use against Mordor's Dromunds as well as Orcs, Uruk-Hai, Easterlings, Trolls and Wolves. Once you've retreated and pillaged away all the fortresses around the city, you can defeat a stack of Mordor units on grass with a vet Galley as long as it doesn't contain an Olog-Hai.

[Sieve Too]

Xin Yu, you are right about Dromund having m=5, same as Galleys. However, I'm having some doubts on using Longboats to detect the Dromund. They tend to come at you towards Belfalas from either the S/SE or SW or towards Dol Amorth from the SW. I'm not sure 2 Longboats are enough. Every Longboat you build means one less vet Galley to counter-attack with. I'm finding that I can't get enough Galleys.

Similarly, since Harad begins to threaten barely 4 or 5 turns into the scenario, I'm finding it hard to produce the Longboats needed to ship-chain Hobbits down to the South.

Eagles protecting The Carrock: When over water, they don't generate ZOC. I watched a Wolves unit walk right by it to attack. Too bad The Carrock can't produce Galleys. It would be easy to protect then.

North and South Dunlan(sp?): I usually send the Ents to kill all the defenders (some pick up vet status) and then rush a Dunedain from Sarn Ford down to walk into the cities. This gives Gandalf some time to kill a few Nazgul up north and recover before coming south to attack Isengard with the Ents.

Dwarves: It's hard to build 4 Dwarves (which is the minimum you need to finish a fortress in one turn) since Iron Hills is frequently under attack. The city shrinks too much and the food shortage is hard to deal with. Any non-air unit I try to get to or from the Iron Hills (like a Settler) gets crunched.

And I think it's worth saying again: This is one fantasic scenario! Too bad I can't find a way to win it...

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: I have played 4 turns into the game and it is going on very well. Please try it again when you have time. The following tips may help:

For clearity let's number the Nazguls from northwest to southeast #1-#8.
#1 and #2 Nazgul (north to hobbiton): Use 'Nazgul trap's I got them crashed by turn 2 and turn 4. However there were a couple of wolves coming from the north when trapping the second nazgul. Got to kill them to protect the trap. The spy bird can give you information so it's doable. Even if you can't trap them, you can move the Rangers to Hobbiton and rotate them so the Nazguls will be attracted forever. Rush build a settler and build a fortress on the hills squares west and north of Hobbiton and put a vet Dunedain in each fortress (later add a hobbit); move a vet elven to Bree. After this setup you don't need to worry about North.
#3 and # 4 Nazgul: Turn 1, move Radagast to Eagle's Eyrie, and move gandalf to the river square two squares southwest of the Nazgul city (which is North to Rivendell). Second turn, use gandalf to kill the orcs on the hills two squares west of Eagle's Eyrie, thus punch a hole to the orcs wall and Radagast will take gandalf's position. Now two Nazgals will be attracted by Radagast. Third turn Gandalf return to rivendell and Radagast move two squares northwest -- the two Nazguls will pursue and end up in a plain square. Turn 4 use Gandalf to attack, he will die and reborn a vet, this time attack again and kill the two Nazguls.
#5 Nazgul: this one will crash on turn 1(kill one elven unit) if you move 5 units from Rivendell along the river to form a Nazgul trap. Position Gomli next to the Nazgul (on the right), then a vet elven NE to Gomli, then a non-vet elven NW to the first elven, then Boromir NE to the second elven, then Legolas NW to Boromir.
Other Nazguls and the Witch King: Have your Southern cities heavily fortified (20 units in Minas Tirith), so #8 Nazgul and the Witch King will give up there and move towards the Elven city. Move Aragorn and Gomli through the place Gandalf had opened to Eagle's Eyrie. Also move Gollum there. Meanwhile try to get Aragorn to vet. Then protected by Gollum Aragorn will move to a Mountain square 3 squares away from Moria and attract all Nazguls and the Witch King. The Witch King will try to attack Aragorn and get killed. Now quickly have Aragorn repaired by the ally (move it to the Elven city) and move back to a mountain square. The Witch King will appear again and get suicide against Aragon. Gomli can protect Eagle's Eyrie without any problem and you can free the eagles to protect the Carrock.
A settler and a dwarf will ming Dale to forest. Afterwards the dwarf can protect the city. Iron Hills will be protected by a dwarf as well. Eagle King will move to Dale and protect both Dale and Iron Hills whenever there's a problem. Disband other units to build Dunedains to protect Esog.
3 dwarves are enough to build a fortress on a river in one turn and hold on to it (4 if on river+forest). On turn 1 use your non-vet dwarf to attack. If he won with some moving points left (you are lucky!), let him start building fortress then click on him (so the next turn he won't get stucked). Then use your vet dwarf to move 5 squares to South and start building a fortress (again click on him before the end of the turn). The next turn move both of them to the forest river square and build fortress, it will be finished due to their pre-work. Move your rush-built dwarf there to hold the line. If your first dwarf did not win with moving points left then you could only settle with a river square. Every turn after there will be 3-4 Rhun units attack you but you'll be Ok. When your dwarfs fully recovered, move them forward. You still have one dwarf to protect Iron Hills.
Harad Drumond have move 6 (it has the lighthouse)! Must use a spy bird. I was able to finish setup by turn 4 for moving units south. (Rush built 2 longboats every turn. Built two cities on the Southern fork to let the longboats through, used my knight to kill a wolf there). Turn 5 Legolas and Boromir will be in Belfalas! Before that my tactic was to send my ships out to meet the Drumonds rather than waiting at ports. This will slow the enemy down and keep them at bay. (I built a shipyard in Belfalas so I can build 3 vet Galleys each turn.) One interesting finding: the Drumonds won't attack my longboats if I don't sentry them and they are empty. I can very well use longboats to further delay the enemy. (This also means that the naval convoys will be totally safe.)
I plan to move Gandalf and Radagast to South to get rid of the Harad ships and protect my landing on Harad. The two can also protect Frodo and the Ring to get close to Barad-dur.
However the new city built to get units south was too close to Isengard and I'm afraid that I could not hold it. I'll try your tactic (use Ents to attack an Isengard city and occupy it with a Dunedain) to see if the Isengards will be attracted there rather than bothering my transport city.

[Harlan]

Xin Yu,
What's all this griping about the scenario being so difficult- looks like you have it well under control now. When I made it I was bummed the way Frodo and the Ring worked, in that they could only go so fast. Now, I'm glad, cos at least you can't speed up their getting to Mt. Doom- or can you?

[Xin Yu]

Nope, unless you change your mind and let me use the diplomacy trick.
I don't see any usage of diplomatic contacts, so why not just ban them altogether?

Just played through turn 6.
All enemy attacks were foiled. Except that, I gave up the city northeast of Hobbiton (I managed to sell all city improvements before it's fall). Hopefully that town can buy me enough time for setting up defense of Hobbiton.
Ents city almost got bribed (I was very very lucky that I tried to change an Ents' position and bumped into Wormtongue). I think next time I'll move a Eagle there to patrol the place. I'll let the Eagle leave Eagle's Eyrie at turn 2 when the two Nazguls at Moria are out of town. The Eagle can then occupy South Dunlan after it is emptied by Ents bombardment.
Harad ships are stopped. Balfalas has Pippin, Legolas, Boromir and a Hobbit. Also several Galleys are waiting. Two other cities also have Hobbits. Radagast is on his way there and Gandalf is resting in Ravendell (he killed two Nazguls with a tiny little blood left).

[Xin Yu]

Since my strategy went on very well I now turn to Deity Level. It is a lot tougher since the AI cheats like hell. Each turn all AI shield boxes are filled automatically. I guess they just purchased them with a low low price of one gold per shield (plus 20% discount since AI only needs 80% of the shield to build a unit). The evil civs have 50+ cities combined, so each turn 50 units are going to be produced. By the time I occupy Barad-dur, 1,000 will be produced!

Can't let that happen, so I'm going to go offensive early in the game. Gandalf and Legolas will attack northern Mordor cities after the Nazguls are gone. Merry and Pippin will also go offensive once they become vets. My largest offensive force -- Radagast, the Eagles, and dwarfs will eliminate the Rhun. Faramir will use amphibious attack to eliminate the two Mordor coastal cities. Really need some luck in this.

[Lul Thyme]

N\T

[Lul Thyme]

Ok sorry for the previous message, I was havgin trouble posting. OK first before I say anything else here is a copy of an email I sent to Harlan and his response before I even read anything on this forum. I will comment it and the forums afterwards
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Gabriel Verret wrote:

> Hi,
> I played your Lord of the Rings scenario for Civ 2 since version 2 but
> played mostly version 3. When I learned you had made a new version I was
> very happy to see you were still working on it. While playing I noted down
> everything I thought might be useful some of it is criticism but only
> constructive. Some are hints or strategies I find relevant and some is just
> comments. Since this is my first e-mail to you some of the things are
> relevant to older versions as well.
> (In no particular order)
> 1.Shelob : she looks great but I never saw her in my game. Afterwards, I
> tried to cheat but I didn't see her anywhere and saw no reference to her in
> the events...
> 2.Now the new power of Sauron, The Balrog and Elrond (not sure about
> Galadriel) to come out and attack a few squares from their town. I suspect
> you did this purely on practical grounds because in the books those units
> never even left their respective homes. But I found it to be a nuisance. The
> Balrog killed himself early by flying against some fortified pikemen. Elrond
> died likewise. When Frodo arrived in Minas Morgul (conquered) with The Ring,
> Aragorn accompanied him and they fortified themselves in Mount Doom waiting
> for the final attack. Sauron may be strong but there's not much even he can
> do against the King of Gondor veteran fortified in a fortress on Mount Doom.
> I don't know about Galadriel but this is the first game I ever saw die so I
> must guess she too using her newfound power to attack decided to commit
> suicide. I strongly suggest at least The Balrog and her stay in their city.
> Elrond and Sauron should too.
> 3.Orcs. Orcs again. I believe raising the defense of defensive orcs from 2
> to 3 was the most important change in version 4. It's main influence is that
> now mountains can't be attacked except by a few select units like Aragorn or
> Gandalf. Even minor heroes like Gimli don't stand much of a chance. That
> means that the way East of Rivendell for example can never really be used
> until the fall of Barad-Dur whereas in the version 3 u could slowly get rid
> of all the pesky orcs by attacking them with Gimli, Legolas and Boromir and
> healing after every attack. Same goes with cities. Trollshaws, Ninglor and
> Goblin Town, which would fall to a coordinated attack in version 3 now
> require at least Gandalf and 2 other heroes to be taken. This brings me to
> point 4
> 4.Dunedains, which are the main producible shock for Gondor are not almost
> cannon fodder. In version 3, veteran Rangers could take on most units on
> clear terrain even orcs within city walls on clear terrain and orcs on
> almost all terrain. While they couldn't be relied on for any sturdier target
> they did the small jobs while heroes took on the big fortresses, the
> Olog-Hais and other such minions. Now they have no way attacking any city
> even if filled with orcs even orcs on rivers and such pose problems. And
> we're not talking about knights or catapults but the best unit Gondor can
> produce. This is made more livable by the plethora of new heroes :
> Treebeard, The New Gollum, The Lord of Eagles, Theoden and Merry and Pippin
> , who are amongst the best units. (In my game Merry resisted the onslaught
> of two Nazguls in Osgiliath). The result is that the scenario has become
> much more of a heroes game, where most battles can't be won without a fair
> amount of heroes.
> 5.Harad is strong. Maybe too strong. At the end of the scenario when all the
> Northern Mordor cities had fallen most of Mordor itself and the Easterlings
> had only 2 cities left (which they would have lost the scenario being one
> turn longer), Harad hadn't lost a SINGLE city, and while Pelargir and other
> southern cities had been safe, Harad still had a stranghold of Mumakils
> which I was unable to dislodge. I must admit to not sending even one hero
> down there and as I said in my previous point, major battles need heroes.
> Let's just compare with Easterlings for example. The Haradrim is comparable
> to the Easterling in that it is very mobile, very good on attack and defense
> (an elite unit) and they both make zounds of them. They can be stopped by
> dunedains in walled city if river or other terrain and can be killed by one
> or 2 vet dunedains on clear terrain or light terrain. The differences lies
> in the fact that behind their easterlings, Rhun has puny (I would say
> laughable if they weren't my main line of defense) archers and pikeman while
> Harad has the all-powerful mumakils (a bit too powerful in my opinion) and
> ships patrolling the seas and hitting anything on the coast while making the
> occasional raid on a port city.
> 6.I like most graphic changes to the units except for the Uruk-Hai which
> resembles the Orc too much. I know of course that Uruk-Hais ARE orcs but I
> still like their graphics to be dissimilar.
> 7.The ranger units are said to come back when KILLED but in fact only do so
> when they are defenders. I learned this the hard way while launching
> kamikaze raids against Fornost with no hope of coming back because of fuel
> (I figured this was a good idea because they weren't doing much right now
> and would com back anyway). I think you should either change this in the
> events, if it can be done, or change the text in the readme.
> 8.As I said earlier I conquered all Mordor city out of Mordor. All rhun but
> the 2 furthest city. Ninglor was destroyed. And I took Osgiliath Minas
> Morgul, Ithilien, Poros, Barad-dur and 2 or 3 more cities in Mordor. I
> barely got a stalemate. And if I retired on first turn with my original
> cities I'd get a decisive defeat. This occurred in earlier version too and
> I'm pretty sure it has to do with Wonder cities. Moria, during the game is
> not listed as a objective when I click on it. I could check if you want if
> that really is the problem but I got a hint you were aware of this.
> 9.This one has to do about the AI cheating about invisible units. I tried a
> few times to send Frodo with The Ring and do it the Stealthy way but it
> seems Nazgul were always going to places they had nothing to do but kill
> Frodo. Even once I was rid of the Nazguls, units always seem to carelessly
> go in mountains and kill Frodo even though there were on a road. I am aware
> this is not your fault but it makes might the only way to bring The Ring to
> Barad-Dur. Gondor must take Osgiliath and Minas Morgul (Minas Morgul
> couldn't resist to the assaults of Aragorn, Faramir, Eowyn and Eomer and all
> the hobbits although Eomer was killed by the last of the Nazguls.) and then
> send a force to mount doom. (In my case Aragorn, Frodo and The Ring was
> sufficient, Sauron killed himself by attacking the King of Gondor, Heir of
> Isildur who had cut the Ring from his finger.)
> 10.Another important cheat is the amount of fuel. Again I know you are aware
> but my personnel experience was this. When the Ents started attacking
> Isengard and Aragorn had conquered Dunland and was coming to finish the job,
> Saruman hung there by his city for a few turns. He stayed there for a total
> of maybe 8 turns even after Isengard had fallen and finally left for his
> island in the city. Nazguls sometimes stayed afloat for an extra turn too
> although it never got as bad as in Saruman's case and they never actually
> attacked again, they just stayed there.
> 11.Those islands were a very good idea in my opinion to prevent those pesky
> civilizations from popping up.
> 12.I never figured out why the Casualties screen is not empty from the start
> and Gondor has such casualties has The Balrog from the start. It doesn't
> affect gameplay of course but it wreaks the whole point of the screen.
> 13.Even if for a few reasons it is harder than in the previous versions, I
> really think you should make an effort to produce the equivalent of the
> Isengard scenario from version 3. I had lots of fun conquering Rohan and
> Gondor with Saruman's Uruk-Hais.
> 14.Now I know bribing was very much of a problem in version 3 (I once bribed
> Osgiliath for a few hundred coins and got 2 Nazguls, 3 Olog Hais a few
> trolls and hordes of lesser creatures and minions who from then on fought
> side by side with Aragorn) and it has been fixed. But to my dismay, even
> though they were listed in the readme, I was never able to build spies, even
> though I had writing. Maybe you know the reason for this, I didn't do much
> research but if you don't have a clue tell me and I can try to find some
> answers.
> 15.Similar to this, after the fall of Barad-Dur, the option to build pikemen
> and archers disappeared. I guess this has to do with them being obsolete
> with the new techs. Maybe you are aware of this and it was wanted but I
> found it very disturbing.
> 16.The readme states that the military civilopedia won't mention the unique
> units. This is one mistake I'm happy you made. I like having all the units
> in the civilopedia as opposed to the Dagor scenario, where all unique units
> are omitted. Anyway you should either changer the readme (best choice IMHO)
> or the civilopedia.
> 17.The change to the Ents was a good idea and well-implemented although I
> would make them stronger. Since they is almost no chance of them doing
> anything but attacking Isengard which will fall anyway it won't disturb the
> game that much.
> 18.Gollum's change is a bit weirder. In my game all he did was stand over
> units and protect them from non fighter-units. Is that really what he was
> intended for?
> 19.Obviously this game is going to vary lot from the books but the one
> consistent thing I did in all my games which varied a lot was to take
> Aragorn and the hobbits with the ring, use them to conquer dunland and
> Isengard and go on to Gondor. This has the advantage of taking Isengard
> easily (Isengard is very hard to take otherwise) and is an easier route than
> going to Rivendell (easy up to now) and crossing the mountains and going
> down. The southern route has a road and is very easy to cross while the
> northern route is easy to Rivendell but the mountains are hard to cross
> (even more since the orc's defense has been upgraded) and is victim of
> Nazgul attacks until close to Entwood. I am aware that this is almost
> impossible to address without drastic changes to the scenario so this is not
> criticism as such. I'd rather know if that's the way everybody does it
> including you, and if not how exactly do they use Aragorn and the hobbits.
> This is it, I guess 19 is enough for now. I'm thinking of trying Reynold's
> Dagor soon and making such comments. I definitely think you should have a
> site for your scenario, amybe not as extensive as Brian's but at least have
> the latest version, your e-mail, a message room for comments, and a small
> getting started guide.
> I expect full and honest comments on this and expect a new version soon
> Lul Thyme
Hi,
Thanks for your comments. I'm afraid I'm no longer into Civ2 much, and am
pretty burned out on this scenario. So I can't match your length in
comments here. However, this scenario has been the focus on some
discussion lately at the Apolyton web site, and you might find answers to
some of your issues there. Check out: http://civilzation.gamestats.net,
and then go to the forums page. Check out the Scenario League forum, and
the thread called Lord of the Rings V.4. Looking at it right now, the
last post was on June 27.

Folks there have come up with some very clever strategies. Such things
as crossing the Misty Mountains are no problem at all for those
guys. Unfortunately, there are some bugs in the game, such as Shelob not
being there. Not having Spies was another, but frankly now I'm happy its
like that, as I dislike any unit or city buying.

I have no plans in fixing the bugs with an updated version, but if you
want to do so, please be my guest (if you okay changes with me first). I
admit it could use some fixing, but I just don't have the time. Someone
else already did much of the work but never finished it, perhaps that
could be finished off.

Harlan

[Lul Thyme]

Ok first some comments about his reply: I'm sorry he's burned with civ 2 and as such doesn't plan to make a new version of this scenario. He directed me to this forum and I've read all replies with great interest. There are still many bugs in the sce a lot of which could be easily adressed and increase gameplay a lot. I have decided to be his guest as he says and do it myself. As such I would be very happy to know what person he refers too did most of the work. I will also list all changes I do here and ask about further suggestions or ideas. I have never done any scenarios but I know civ 2 extensively but I'll still need help for the harder parts and maybe for playtesting. Any interested post here would be best or e-mail me at lul_thyme@hotmail.com (forgot the email I gave to apolyton that was jsut for registering).

[Lul Thyme]

Ok now I'll comment my own text in the e-mail (I've changed my mind about a few things since June). Note I don't plan actually changing anything in the scenario until a few weeks from now, I'm just jotting down ideas and comments from you guys.
1.Shelob I'll put her in the game. Any of you have ideas any specific way I should? (what should trigger her appearing)
2.Except if you guys are all against it's almost sure I will take out the movement of units like The Balrog and Galadriel maybe even Elrond and Sauron
3.I will leave the orcs with toughness 3, it changes the whole strategy but overall it is tougher on the player and I'm fine with this.
4.I am thinking about maybe making one or two of the Gondor units stronger but this is far from certain and will only be done by a slight marge and very carefully. Need lots of comments on this one.
5.I think it would be possible to make Harad less strong but counter with stronger Rhun. Any comments. Far from necessary, could be left as such.
6.Anybody like me like it better in ver 3 when the Uruk-Hais didnt look like Orcs that picked up a different weapon?
7.The rangers will have to be tweaked that's for sure. It seems to be Harlan put them in very quickly without much playtesting.
8.I'm pretty the way objectives work is messed up. I'll try to correct it.
9.Nothing to be done here it's the way civ 2 works.
10.Same here
11.(any particular thoughts about the offshore islands)
12.any thoughts here I think I know why it is like that but any idea how to change it?
13.I still think this can be done although I won't try till I'm done with the main sce.
14.My idea here is to take out all spies diplomat and talking beetween civs altogether. It will take out many bugs. The war with Isengard could be triggered. need comments.
15.As previously mentionned in this forum the give tech is almsot certainly messed up.
16.comments?
17.I read here about differents strategies with the Ents. I'd like comments.
18.Need playtester's comments. With diplomacy out Gollum's new role is fine i guess.
19.Ok let me say here i ca win this scenario 90 % of the time and I;ve never use (I admit I didn't think of them) diplomacy tricks to teleport units or giving tech tricks, nazgul traps (except if u consider fortifying units and them attacking them a "trap")or longboat chains. The scenario is still a challenge though and it can be very fun to see just how much territory you can take before the end of the sce. I'll comment a few more things later.

[Lul Thyme]

OK new comments: first to stop Elrond, Sauron, Galadriel and The Balrog from moving would be good in terms of gameplay and would be truer to the book. Taking diplomacy out would leave two new spots : Wormtongue and diplomat any new unit ideas? (gameplay related if possible, by that i mean units that would either prevent a bug or allow something cool).
I've checked and the incorrect number of objective points is due to important cities not working, all cities are worth one.
Last, anyone know where and how we could host a site for this sce like Brian Reynolds did for his Dagor Bracollah? (or whatever the name)

------------------

[Xin Yu]

Wow, that's a lot of work and posts.

Question: what version did you play? 4.0 or 4.1? In my version Aragorn always lost to Sauron and Bolrog was very strong (I play at deity level). Also the 6 island cities on the lower left corner are gone.

What is your definition for victory? Occupy all Mordor, Rudan, and Harad cities before turn 43?

If you play V4.1 on deity or emperor level and can eliminate the three evil civs before the 3rd age 90% of the time, then you deserve my highest respect. Could you post your strategy here?

[Harlan]

Lul,
Glad to see you want to take up my challenge. Send me an email to harlant@earthlink.net to remind me (I'm not at home), and I'll send you the name of the person who worked on this already, and the latest files he made. He made a number of good fixes, including, if I recall correctly, some reworking of the tech tree to prevent wierd outcomes, like the Elven tech falling into the wrong hands.

I also applaud getting rid of spying units. To fill one of the slots: instead of having immobile Orcs all over the mountain ranges to prevent their easy crossing, make an immobile mountain unit. I made the scenario so long ago that I wasn't even aware of the unit-as-terrain idea yet. Check out the immobile mountain unit concept in other scenarios, such as my Mongols scenario. They're actually air units with unbeatable statistics (esp. as they'd be on mountains). Gondor units that can attack air would know not to, the only problem with them is that Saruman would no longer be able to attack air units or he could kill himself against them (assuming they're Mordor units).

By adding them all along mountain ranges such as the Misty Mountains and the mountains around Mordor, you'd make the game even harder (ha ha!) and better. Now units can only cross through select points of your choosing. Some of those passes could be blocked by one or more immobile Orcs, for instance the road east from Rivendell over the Misty Mts (but the immobile mountains would allow you to get rid of most immobile Orcs). This would force the player to follow the book story line even more, for instance it would be harder to avoid Shelob now. Another pass could force you to tangle with the Balrog (not the only way over, but there'd be less ways to avoid it).

And please, foil Xin Yu's strategies, like the longboat chain and teleportation! Graphics have also improved greatly since the day- maybe people could come up with some better unit pics for instance by pillaging other scenarios and unit collections. Some of them from LotR are a bit embarrassing these days.

[Lul Thyme]

From what you say it must be 4.0 (I had islands) I jsut got 4.1 but havn't tried it yet. Anybody has the list of changes? I'll playtest it and get back to you on this. Well in my version Aragorn Veteran fortified on fortress on mount doom killed Sauron without getting yellow.... just do the math and it's normal (def 6, 9 for vet, 13.5 for fortified, 27 for fortress, 81 for mount doom, 192 because Sauron flies.) Aragorn has 192 def 5hps 3 fp Sauron has attack 30 (45 if vet) 7hps 5 fp... Who would you bet on? Well on Deity I usually take all of Mordor cities except one or two and all of Rhuns and maybe 4 cities of Harad before time ends. So no this is not your victory definition but don't forget as I said i use no Nazgul traps, no longboat chains or no diplomacy trick.
to Harlan : wouldn't it be easier if we tried to do like in Brian's Dagor (someone send me the proper name i keep forgetting) use railroad over ocean squares?? Or would longboats over mountains just seem out of place? It would prevent Saruman and Gandalf from attacking them.... Tell me what you think.

[Lul Thyme]

I play Mge
I think you're right about flying units i think defending units lose the fortification bonus. I would have to test about fortify. It makes the battle much closer. But Aragorn still won easily in my game. Do you have comments on anything else? I have an e-mail from Harlan with the list of the changes someone else did to the sce although I don't know if it would be possible to get that version.

------------------
"But no living man am I."-Eowyn
Many have become chess masters -- no one has become themaster of chess. -Siegbert Tarrasch
The meaning of victory is not to defeat your enemy but to destroy him,to eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his every achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can recover. That is the meaning of victory. Lord Commander Solar Macharius

[Harlan]

Lul,
It is very possible to get that updated version- I sent it to you as an attachment to the email you speak of. So if you were able to read that, you should have the attachment to download as well. I sent you two more emails that have the sound files as well.

Xin,
You're good at pointing out shortcuts to winning the game- but can you use your power of evil for good? What I mean is, now that you've exposed these things, suggest ways to fix them?

Is there a conversion program working these days that converts from MGE to FW? I'd hate to see Lul make a better version of this game, only to find that people with only FW can't play it.