South Africa's Dirty Little Secret

[Velociryx]

Nahhh, Tripledoc. Don't worry 'bout it.

It's not personal, remember? Too far away to lose any sleep over, and besides, if we ignore it, the problem will just....go away, right? It's not very interesting anyway, except for the shock value. I mean, from a cooly impersonal academic standpoint, in looking at other great tragedies around the world, it barely even registers on the ol' RADAR!

Besides, there's a good movie on TV tonight, isn't there? And that's lots more important than losing sleep over some nameless little girl in a pisspoor country....or even sixty nameless little girls.

More seriously, I'm not advocating that anybody fly to South Africa to take up arms against these creeps. THAT is a lesson in absurdity, as I'm sure you know.

It's a local problem, and I'm quite sure that with organized watches and a bit of good old fashioned detective work, it would not be hard for the locals in town to zero in on the rapists....unless you believe that they have Romulan Cloaking technology, perhaps?

And, once found, since the police obviously aren't interested in punishing them, and since having a cookout in their honor isn't exactly sending the right message if the goal is to stop the crime, what would you propose? Sit them down and give them a good talking to, maybe? Yep...I'm sure that would fix it right up!

-=Vel=-

[Dr Strangelove]

You have to realize that South Africa is staggering under the weight of a massive crime wave. They have a horrendous murder and assault rate, not to mention rampant property crime. South Africa is not a rich nation, and it has a huge health care burden owing to the AIDS epidemic. South Africa simply can't afford enough policemen.
How could vigilantism be a solution? With an unemployment rate of 50% most of the population could probably be classified as disaffected. Arming the masses would simply magnify the problem.

[Tripledoc]

Speaking to vel.

Sure. Everybody wants the executions to begin, except the executioner. It is sooo easy for you to demand that the South Africans administer a bit of Nacht und Nebel punishmnent.

BTW where did you ever get the idea that the police is not interested in punishing them. South Africa is a democracy and the rule of law requires that punishments should be handed down from the courts, not the police. And the police is actually doing whatever they can to prevent the crimes.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Spiffor
They produce the uranium we need to build nukes.

You could always buy uranium from us. We Americans have tons of the stuff.

[Velociryx]

I said a number of posts back that it's not a great solution. By far not the best solution. The best solution would be to have an adequately sized and funded law enforcement organization that's fully capable of dealing with the problem.

That's the first, best choice, always.

That's not what South Africa has, and given the size of the crime wave they're currently facing. Given the (apparently) near-complete paralysis OF said law enforcement agency to to anything meaningful to prevent further instances of these and other crimes, what are the alternative choices?

Hand-wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth about how much it sucks? Yeah, that'll help stop it I'm sure.

Sit them down as they're caught and rationalize with them? Talk to them about the nature and origin of the hatred they feel? Again, sounds nice, but I'm sorta thinking it won't do a lot to STOP the crimes from happening.

Or, get some people together who have HAD ENOUGH, organize them, and let them at the bastards doing the deed? Not pretty, not elegant, but it's a beginning. You say it won't solve anything....I say that every rapist caught and dealt with in the harshest possible terms, in light of law enforcement's paralysis, will send a VERY strong message to other rapists out there, and it'll make all the difference in the world to the little girl the rapist would have targeted tomorrow night. It'll make a pretty compelling difference to her, don't you imagine?

If we proceed from the notion that these crimes are born of a deep-rooted societal hatred, then one iteration of the crime will surely not be enough.

If the rapist does his thing once, that's not going to make his hatred suddenly, magically go away, will it? Hardly....and it's far, far more likely to imagine that, having gotten away with it once, he'll be inclined to do it again.

All it'd take would be one person....ONE local there, on-scene to say enough is enough and start organizing his friends.

With rampant unemployment, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to scare up people with time on their hands, and with a bit of charisma and convincing, it would not be hard to gel those people selected into a cohesive group with a common goal. Done correctly, those volunteers could work WITH law enforcement to bulk up their numbers so that something COULD be done, but make no mistake, if I was organizing said group, although I'd definitely want to work with the local law enforcement agencies, I would be extremely light handed in reining in the folks out there on patrol....with the current environment as it is there, people who commit those kinds of crimes are the sort you bludgeon first and ask questions to later.

-=Vel=-

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Or, get some people together who have HAD ENOUGH, organize them, and let them at the bastards doing the deed?

If we proceed from the notion that these crimes are born of a deep-rooted societal hatred, then one iteration of the crime will surely not be enough.

With rampant unemployment, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to scare up people with time on their hands, and with a bit of charisma and convincing, it would not be hard to gel those people selected into a cohesive group with a common goal. Done correctly, those volunteers could work WITH law enforcement to bulk up their numbers so that something COULD be done, but make no mistake, if I was organizing said group, although I'd definitely want to work with the local law enforcement agencies, I would be extremely light handed in reining in the folks out there on patrol....with the current environment as it is there, people who commit those kinds of crimes are the sort you bludgeon first and ask questions to later.

-=Vel=-

The problem is that with the conditions currently existing in Siouth Africa most of the people you might be able to gather up into a vigilante group will likely be just as dissafected with society as the perpetrators. The numbers needed to effectively make a difference would probably be greater than the number of police. Also, the resources to adequately train this group probably aren't available. Since many criminals in South Africa are armed (the death rate of on-duty police is also extrememly high) the vigilantes would also have to be armed. Soon you'd have the country broken up into small areas controlled by warlords, very much like the condition Somalia was in 10 years ago. In the end the women and girls would be worse off than before.

[Velociryx]

That's one possible future, Doc....readily admit that.

But it's not the ONLY possible outcome, or even, I would argue, the most likely.

By and large, the outcome (warlords or eventual re-stability) would be determined by the strength of leadership and the character of those leaders. Yes, it could result in a splintering of the powerbase, and we've seen living examples of that.

Doesn't have to tho, and again, given the current situation in South Africa, what other choice is there? Just let things continue in a downward spiral indefinitely without TRYING?

-=Vel=-

[Sandman]

It looks like the point in my my last post has not been noticed.

I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

The righteous indignation displayed by Vel and others seems to assume that the police are preventing honest South Africans from dispensing street justice. This is unlikely to be the case, seeing as how the police can't stop the child rapes.

I bet the South African police would LOVE a bit of vigilantism. I suspect that child rape has become a cultural norm in the communities involved. These aren't individual isolated paedophiles, furtively keeping touch via the internet and trying to hide from the society. These are whole communities that have been corrupted by AIDS, drugs, drink, poverty, alcohol and violence. They'll never become vigilantes because they don't care, or they're doing the raping themselves.

[Velociryx]

Sandman: To be honest, I dunno where they are. I don't believe the police are *preventing* them from organizing, no. Given all the problems that nation faces, I have to believe that's not extremely high on the do-list.

So...I don't have an answer for that. National apathy. Acceptance that this is just the way things are and there's nothing to be done? Lack of will to make a change, or at least try? I dunno.

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So...I don't have an answer for that. National apathy. Acceptance that this is just the way things are and there's nothing to be done? Lack of will to make a change, or at least try? I dunno.

I think the reasons are much more mundane than that. Being busy with daily survival looks like a reason to me. I don't think many are ready to jeopardize their own survival while:
1. putting less energy in finding the daily money
2. risking to get actually killed by the rapists.

Besides, AIDS and sexual promiscuity are extremely high in South Africa, and many of these kids have either a dead or an absent father. You consistently talk about "if she was your daughter...", but one of the problems is that, in many cases, there is no father for blood to boil.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
It looks like the point in my my last post has not been noticed.

I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

The righteous indignation displayed by Vel and others seems to assume that the police are preventing honest South Africans from dispensing street justice. This is unlikely to be the case, seeing as how the police can't stop the child rapes.

I bet the South African police would LOVE a bit of vigilantism. I suspect that child rape has become a cultural norm in the communities involved. These aren't individual isolated paedophiles, furtively keeping touch via the internet and trying to hide from the society. These are whole communities that have been corrupted by AIDS, drugs, drink, poverty, alcohol and violence. They'll never become vigilantes because they don't care, or they're doing the raping themselves.

Why would anyone notice your primitive stoneage diatribes?

The vigilantes are obviously sitting around this board writing inane comments.

And who are you to know what is 'rightious'. If your rightiousness include clubbing people to death then you can shove it.

Oh yes, and let us not only blame the actual perpetrators. Let us blame the whole culture while we are at it. No your cultural imperialism stinks, and if it wasn't because probably a lot of uneducated people would heartily agree with your utterly useless 'rightious' indignation I would not even care to comment on your idiocy.

[Sandman]

You've badly misinterpreted my post, Tripledoc.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


No I am saying that people who merely want to bust heads in or turn South Africa into a parking lot express fascist symphaties. People can agree with me all they want to, however I would hope that the majority of people in the real world is against vigilante justice.

And how is Vel going to 'deal with it'. He would like to kill them, but us he ready to do that? Would he really go to South Afriaca and seek out those people? Would he be ready to be imprisoned in a South African prison? If he responds with a positive, well I would have to respect that. I do hope however that his familiy and loved ones would have him committed to be treated of his insanity.

by "real world" u mean the pseudo construct of bureacracy we have built upon ourselves? cuz thats a pretty warped version of "the real world." bequeefing all moral judgement to the augmentation and machinations of disaffected corrupt politicians is a sorry ass way to live.

[Dr Strangelove]

I don't know much about the tribes living in South Africa, but in many areas of Africa grammer school aged girls are up for marriage. This ties in with FGM or female circumcision which is often used to make the girl child's introitis large enough to accomodate a man. If girl children are commonly seen as up for grabs according to local customs that may explain why there isn't a bigger furor over child rape. The other reason may be that people are preoccupied by other things, such ascaring for relatives sick with AIDS, or just the plain good old fashioned hunt for food.

[Velociryx]

Glad to see there's passion in your veins somewhere, Tripledoc!

So....what's the answer then? Shall we council them to sit around and wring their hands about how awful it is, but not actually DO anything to try and make it better? ::gasp!:: we can't suggest they actually give a damn about it, at least not to the point that they're willing to put some "oomph" behind the words, cos that would be evil "cultural imperialism," right?

So....let's just all join hands and do nothing. Stick our heads in the sand and council them to do the same.

After enough people have died, or been gang raped, or all the other stuff that's happening there, the hate HAS to cool down at some point, and then the problem will just magically vanish! An *exquisite* plan, I'm sure!

Look, NONE of the 60 little girls a day is my daughter. Nor (so far as I know) anybody who's been posting here's daughter, but that doesn't stop the outrage from showing thru with blinding clarity right here on this board, which is hosted literally thousands of miles from where it's happening.

Don't you think that it's POSSIBLE that there are at least a few people locally to where this is occuring that feel a helluva lot more passionately about it than we who are so far removed from where it's all occuring? All it'd take would be one...ONE such person who finally has enough, and that person could begin to make a change.

One.

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Vel:

I said it before the Iraqi war and I say it again here: your (rightful) willingness to change things make you rush in applying bad solutions. I can't speak for Tripledoc, but for myself, I say:

As much as I understand the desire for revenge, revenge is nothing a solution to the problem. If you opened the hunting season, as TMM put it, you'll end up with 80 infant rapes a day, plus the daily lynching of innocents

There are plenty of people in South Africa who are concerned about it, according to the article. For some reason, they don't advocate vigilante justice. How come they can't figure out something that simple by themselves ?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Vel:

I said it before the Iraqi war and I say it again here: your (rightful) willingness to change things make you rush in applying bad solutions. I can't speak for Tripledoc, but for myself, I say:

As much as I understand the desire for revenge, revenge is nothing a solution to the problem. If you opened the hunting season, as TMM put it, you'll end up with 80 infant rapes a day, plus the daily lynching of innocents

There are plenty of people in South Africa who are concerned about it, according to the article. For some reason, they don't advocate vigilante justice. How come they can't figure out something that simple by themselves ?

I'd like to see the logic of infant rape increasing due to vigilantiism. on what even remotely logical ground does this rest? the whole line of reasoning is bizzarre use of drug statistics(make the drugs illegal and more ppl use illegal drugs!).

but how even that would apply to raping a 2 year old is beyond me

[Spiffor]

Yavoon:

My line of reasoning was in a previous post in this thread, but here you go again.

One of the theories explaining why infant rape is so much spread there is: the rapists are enjoying various feats of gratuitous / horrible violence because they want to get a vengeance on society. Since there are many deeds of gratuitous violence altogether, this theory seems sound to me. Especially because I don't imagine one can take a pleasure from raping an infant except the pleasure of doing the "ultimate sin" (= absolute rejection of society's values).

I think vigilantism, and its excesses, will only deepen the societal gap, and many people will feel even more alienated. And as a result, even more people will indulge in gratuitous violence, among which infant rapes.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yavoon:

My line of reasoning was in a previous post in this thread, but here you go again.

One of the theories explaining why infant rape is so much spread there is: the rapists are enjoying various feats of gratuitous / horrible violence because they want to get a vengeance on society. Since there are many deeds of gratuitous violence altogether, this theory seems sound to me. Especially because I don't imagine one can take a pleasure from raping an infant except the pleasure of doing the "ultimate sin" (= absolute rejection of society's values).

I think vigilantism, and its excesses, will only deepen the societal gap, and many people will feel even more alienated. And as a result, even more people will indulge in gratuitous violence, among which infant rapes.

intellectualizing on why ppl do horrible things? generally its because they don't consider them horrible. tho ur theory is amusing, I think u'll find that history supports the latter(mine) and much more sensible reason.

the people doing it may not consider it the best thing, but they have probably dehumanized the object of their transgression. which is of course repeated many times throughout history.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
the people doing it may not consider it the best thing, but they have probably dehumanized the object of their transgression. which is of course repeated many times throughout history.

This is also a possible explanation. It is very possible many people indulging in gratuitous violence to do so because of the fun in it without humanising their victim. But I don't think your explanation and mine are incompatible.

Think about it. Where is the fun in killing the owner of the car you want to rob, instead of simply pulling him out of the car? Where is the fun in raping an infant, especially when you can rape the mother? (I cannot believe there is any sexual satisfaction to be taken off this)

I think the fun is simply to do what is tagged as wrong -in that case as horribly wrong- by the society. You can dehumanize the targets completely, and yet still know how wrong (according to the principles of the society) your action is.

[Dr. Stiby]

Hi,
didn't bother to read the entire thread, so maybe it's been brought up. But rapings of infants in South Africa can be explained by the relatively widespread belief among the population that AIDS can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin.
This of course doesn't justify a thing, but at least calls for better HIV/AIDS education.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

This is also a possible explanation. It is very possible many people indulging in gratuitous violence to do so because of the fun in it without humanising their victim. But I don't think your explanation and mine are incompatible.

Think about it. Where is the fun in killing the owner of the car you want to rob, instead of simply pulling him out of the car? Where is the fun in raping an infant, especially when you can rape the mother? (I cannot believe there is any sexual satisfaction to be taken off this)

I think the fun is simply to do what is tagged as wrong -in that case as horribly wrong- by the society. You can dehumanize the targets completely, and yet still know how wrong (according to the principles of the society) your action is.

though teenagers do "rebel" and do "forbidden" things. and ppl do go insane and want vengence upon society(and make good biographies!). I don't think either of those extrapolated is what is causing this.

though I think there's plenty of room for polite disagreement

=D

[pchang]

Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is associated with the development of pathalogical behavior. Something seems to happen in the brain development that results in people who just don't see a distinction between right and wrong and who are prone to violence. If a significant percentage of a population had developed this, it might explain the behavior seen in South Africa. A thousand years ago, societies like this would have been obliterated by an expanding neighbor and replaced.

[Velociryx]

Spiff...we actually don't disagree...or at least, not by much.

I completely believe that the rule of law is THE, bar none, hands down best way to handle the situation.

But when that fails (and it seems like it pretty well has, in the case of South Africa), the solution is to do something...ANYTHING, because the only other alternative is to keep still....keep silent, and suffer through a continuous downward spiral that has no end. WON"T and CAN'T have an end until someone or a group of somone's finally has enough and takes a stand.

When things reach that point, it's never pretty, it's never elegant, and it's never pleasant. Worse, the ultimate success or failure OF such desperate acts and actions are almost entirely contingent on the will and the character of the leadership that sparks it. (and that's bad because all too often, as we have seen, once the leader of such a movement tastes power, he misuses it horribly).

Still, there are, and have been instances of restored stability out of it, and in the current situation, there aren't too many other cards to play. The established forces of law in South Africa are hopelessly outmatched, outclassed, and outnumbered...overwhelmed by the problems they face to the point of paralysis, and their country is coming apart at the seams around them.

What's needed are leaders of strong will and firm character to rise up, say enough is enough and MAKE things change. Force the change.

Yep....that's not very democratic, I realize. I also realize that attempting to do much of anything democratically with things as they currently are is a fool's errand....that's why the character of the leaders is of vital importance...because WHEN those leaders restore order, they gotta have the moral fiber to re-plant the seeds of democracy....but democracy cannot rise up spontaneously out of the current situation.

Ideally, some wealthy individual with close ties to South Africa would come in and start funding a private security force to augment local law enforcement. That would put people to work, give them a sense of legitimacy, and help the local law boys keep order. It would also decrease the unemployment rate and ensure proper training and equipment for the new security detail. Again tho, finding such a philanthropist is prolly a pipe dream (or at least, finding one who didn't have some other agenda, besides seeing the nation restored). So, it falls to the rank and file to dig themselves out.

-=Vel=-

[Berzerker]

It has to do with the humiliation of indirect victims (relatives), and with the feeling of power towards the rich.

I'd say the humiliation is driving this, although the AIDS cure motive sounds plausible. But the notion that the perps are doing this to get back at the rich makes no sense. Are the victims members of rich families?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'll try and state it more clearly: WHERE ARE THE VIGILANTES?

They're out there killing people. SA has a high murder rate.

--
This whole baby rape thing boggles my mind. How could anyone get aroused by looking at a baby? How could anyone do it to baby. IT's beyond comprehension.

[Ned]

A horrible situation. I think the cuase of the problem is social. I note the following: the crimes are committed by blacks who have plenty of alcohol and are suffering 50% unemployment. The victims are largely black as well, their parents, or more particularly, their mothers living dissolute lives with plenty of alcohol. (I wonder why single mothers are not consider unemployed.) There is not one single mention of outraged fathers doing anything. Why? I submit for your consideration that the rape victims are largely from single-parent households, as are probably the perpetrators.

If the black population had jobs and traditional families and less alcohol, the problem would vanish. If there is an agreement on this, the answer is not more police or the use of vigilantes, but more jobs and more families, and of course, a lot less alchohol.

The aids epidemic is also caused by lack of families.

I can think of lot's of incentives to get from here to there. I wonder, though, whether the South Africans will come to the same opinion about the fundamental cause of the problem.

[Lung]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Why do people always respond to this issue of child rape with tiresome tirades of beating the perpetrators to bloody pulp?

Will it solve anything?

Yes. They won't do it again.

Is it legal?

What's that got to do with it? My life wouldn't be worth living without my child, so i would have nothing to lose.

Will it make you feel better?

DUH! Of course it would! Nothing, and i repeat NOTHING is more satisfying than revenge. Revenge is a desire for natural justice, which is exactly why it happens.

Will a scientific approach to the problem help you understand the issue? Yes.

Will it then be possible to combat the problem? Yes.

Will it make you feel better? Yes.

Yes, but in the mean time, i'm doing something about it, while your solution is decades away. Lighter penalties come after some level of control is obtained. We give lenient sentences because we, to some extent, can afford to. That is a luxury that South Africa can not afford.

Besides, if someone committed such a heinous atrocity as infact rape, i wouldn't give a rat's arse about the law. I wouldn't even care if it was wrong. Besides, Tripledoc is there for that purpose

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Dr. Stiby
But rapings of infants in South Africa can be explained by the relatively widespread belief among the population that AIDS can be cured by having intercourse with a virgin.

That's probably part of the reason why, but can't explain the whole thing.

Originally posted by Tingkai
How could anyone get aroused by looking at a baby?

I reckon sex has very little to do with it. Rapes are mainly about power and control, but here, I'd add hatred, anti-social behaviour, and the belief of AIDS curing.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
and the belief of AIDS curing.

Actually, the article states that only one of the observed cases was about AIDS curing, so I think this reason is pretty minor compared to the others you stated. I'd assume AIDS curing is more frequent when it comes to rapes of formed children, rather than of infants.