Required Reading for Civ players...

MysteryMan · October 21, 2003, 17:24

Hey everyone, I've noticed that there are some people here who REALLY know their stuff. Some of that can be developed through playing the game, and some of it can be aquired through study. This is where this thread comes in.

If you have (ever or recently) read a book that inspired you to a new strategy (or a new tactic), post it here. Such books need not be restricted to purely military matters, so long as they get people thinking along different lines of thought that they can (hopefully) use to kick some tail in civIII.

So if you have something to add to this list, please do, and please add a short review of what the hapless reader can expect from the book. This idea occured to me at school, but as soon as I get home I will go through my bookshelf and decide which of my titles belong here and add a few more.
(format is 'Author', 'Title')
1)Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
I'm sure most people here have at least heard of it. Most experts seem to agree that it was written about 600BC, which makes the book all the more thouroughly remarkable in that it still applies today, and not only in the realm of military combat, but in every single observable form of conflict thoughout the world. DEFINETELY a MUST no matter what, IMHO even the most uneducated and illiterate knob should have read this book. Very short and very deep. You can read it in a day (if you're a slow reader) but re-read it twenty times and get a new understanding each time.
2)Robert Henlien, Starship Troopers.
First of all, do not judge the book by the movie. That being said, this is one of the best books I have ever read. It is well written and is as much entertainment as anything else. There is a great deal here about why we have soldiers, what their assigned role in a civilization is/should be, the power and price of the right to vote, etc. This book is so thought provoking that I almost put it above The Art of War, even though it is less directly applicable to Civ.
3)Jerry Pournelle, Prince of Sparta.
This falls as much into the 'entertainment' category as it does instruction. There are more books to this series but I cannot recall their titles. A very well written story about a society facing a guerilla/terrorist action. Goes into much depth about the root causes of terrorism, why it is so hard to combat, and what is necessary to combat it with. Entertaining, instructional, inspirational.
More to come. Post yours. I need some new reading material.

Tassadar500 · October 21, 2003, 19:12

I don't think we got our strategys from books or movies

That said I don't think it would be very possible even if the book was all about war strategy.

Aeson · October 21, 2003, 20:09

Read the dictionary, or a phone book. It's not about anything you'll read that will make you a better civ player... If you can learn to find that interesting (or at least tenable), extreme micromanagement will be pure entertainment.

peterfharris · October 21, 2003, 21:35

From books you could learn new strategies however the usefulness would be severely limited. For one useless example, from reading Sun Tze you could be inspired to try the strategy of not attacking Modern Armour with Spearmen. I therefore do not see how reading books will improve ones Civ3 strategy except in the vaguest and most general way. Maybe one could get the idea of concentrating forces and the value of mobility from a book, good and useful ideas but vague and general so you still have to figure how to do this in a game.

SirOsis · October 21, 2003, 22:23

I've found reading the MOO3 manual has helped my game tremendously. At least it was good for something

vmxa1 · October 21, 2003, 22:49

Quote:

Originally posted by SirOsis
I've found reading the MOO3 manual has helped my game tremendously. At least it was good for something

I hope you didn't pay for the start guide like I did, it is only good for sleep issues.

peterfharris · October 21, 2003, 23:32

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

I hope you didn't pay for the start guide like I did, it is only good for sleep issues.

I don't buy strategy guides because they don't seem to have any strategy in them. IIRC the only strategy guide I have bought was the MOO2 strategy guide, the little it contained on strategy was mostly actually very bad.

Tassadar500 · October 22, 2003, 00:33

Well I found that Halo's Strategy guide helped alot.

notyoueither · October 22, 2003, 01:34

I disagree that books cannot aid strategy. I have to say that with extreme prejudice. Fiction as an aid to strategy I can grant as not being useful, however...

A good knowledge of modern military history, a reading of Von Clausewitz, and a very good familiarity with the campaigns of Napoleon can never hurt any would-be emperor.

PS. I think Sun Tzu is over-hyped.

PPS. Let the good times roll!

Dominae · October 22, 2003, 01:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
Read the dictionary, or a phone book. It's not about anything you'll read that will make you a better civ player... If you can learn to find that interesting (or at least tenable), extreme micromanagement will be pure entertainment.

Sad but true.

bongo · October 22, 2003, 04:12

Join the army then, so boring that micromanagement are pure fun....(Well, parts of my year in the arctic region of norway were great fun, but most of it were about as fascinating as watching paint dry)

BTW, I'm thinking of starting ARNA (Anal Retentive Nitpickers Anonymous), anyone interested in joining?

On-topic, many books have strategies that can be used in civ, the trick is how to apply RL strategy to civ.

vulture · October 22, 2003, 06:07

There was a short series on the BBC (that's the main UK broadcaster for those who don't know) a few years ago where they managed to get a group of army generals (active and retired I think) to play some wargames recreating famous battles (e.g. Waterloo - everyone's favourtite). It ws some kind of table-top wargame system, but I don't know what rules were used (it all seemed kind of made-up as they went along to be honest, rather than having a well-defined rule set).

The series itself didn't last long, and wasn't terribly interesting. But what was noticable was that some generals tried to use real world strategies and tactics - and did very badly, while others obviously came to grips fairly quickly with the constraints and quirks of the system, and used the rules to their advantage, to great effect.

The point being, that success was determined almost exclusively by how well they understood and used the rules of the game, and not at all by applying the correct points of real life military doctrine.

There are of course some lessons from real life that are useful (the importance of reserves, mobility, concentration of force, maneouver, dislocation) , but you still have to learn how to apply them within the constraints of the game you are playing. And against the AI you can do pretty well without these things if you understand the game mechanics well enough to take full advantage (you don't need good strategy if you can field an army twice the size of the AI's army).

GhengisFarb™ · October 22, 2003, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
Join the army then, so boring that micromanagement are pure fun....

You got that right.

MrWhereItsAt · October 22, 2003, 22:12

Yeesh, books? The only ways to learn new strategy effectively is to either mix it up with someone in MP or to get it right here on Poly. Most of the things I have learned in the last year and a half to improve my game came from Democracy games.

GhengisFarb™ · October 22, 2003, 22:15

Yes, Democracy games definitely help refine one's gameplay.

bongo · October 23, 2003, 03:12

Or any games involving human opponents.

Knowledge of the rules(or the game mechanics if you like) is of course vital, without it you will be roadkill. If you also know how your enemy will react then victory is certain. I feel that the knowledge about how the AI works has reached the level where it is indeed an exploit.

Yahweh Sabaoth · October 23, 2003, 11:35

Reading and Civ

I find that after I've been playing civ, for, oh, I dunno, 4 hours or so, I start to feel really bad about myself. I mean, good lord. I should be doing SOMETHING with my life. Haven't I seen these little units march across the screen before? I'm a youn man. I should be writing music, or traveling the world, or hitting on women, or cleaning my apartment, or something. Instead, I'm playing Civ.

So I stop. I turn to literature, typically a book like "The Power Broker" or "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" or "Guns, Germs and Steel". I find that after playing so much Civ, I can only read about the unabased pursuit of power, and its disastarous effects on both the world and the individual psyche.

After reading about power-hungry mortals for an hour or two, I find I'm in the mood for Civ again. And then I can play, gleeful in the knowledge that I'm not actually causing the world immense suffering, but rather, conquering fake cities, subjugating fake lands, etc.

GodKing · October 23, 2003, 12:51

The MOO 1 strat guide was amazing. It disected teh game, gave numerious tables, and all sorts of good advise. Real advise. I have yet to find a strat guild since then that even compares.

David Murray · October 23, 2003, 13:40

I once read an inspirational book, the name of whose author sadly I cannot recall. It said, "The best way to win a war is to have lots of soldiers."

I can directly attribute it to my success with Civ3.

infoscott · October 24, 2003, 19:36

-- The Prince, Nicolo Machiavelli --

I read this book in the last three months, after years of Civ2 play and about twelve months of Civ3 play. Before the book I had little clue and little concern over civ reputation, other than the obvious bit of not razing captured cities. After the book I understood much better the importance of reputation in avoiding unnecessary warfare and getting better terms in trade negotiation. My style used to be builder augmented with warfare, now I play mostly Machiavellian until the novelty wears off. My experience with Joan graduated from flirtation to infatuation.

-- The Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi --

I read this book seventeen years ago. When I remember its principles, it makes me a better player of the Samarai and Swordsmen units, especially in emphasis on getting them to Elite status

-- The Art of War, Sun Tzu --

I read it about once every few years. Several points have made me a better Civ3 player:

* Use of spies. Civ3 no longer has Diplomats/Spies, but it does have Scouts/Explorers. These units are spies in the traditional sense quite apart from the Espionage screen. I have also used a Chariot located on a hill top to spy on troop movements in an enemy territory, long after the unit was obsoleted. I now use submarines routinely as spies on naval troop movements

* Use of terrain. So many players use military rushes that they neglect or ignore the effects of terrain. How often do players use the river defense bonus or the fort bonus or the city on a hill bonus? How often to players force the enemy into bad terrain and deny them good terrain? How many times do players use terrain to hide units from the enemy's visibility? I use to leverage terrain advantage to the max while playing Civ2-Deity and am using it more and more as I progress up the difficulty tree in Civ3.

* Disguising weakness/hiding strength. When I first get a new decisive unit, such as knight, cavalry, or tank, I immediately park it near a border so my neighbors know I have the unit and will be afraid. It doesn't matter whether I have enough military to back up the "claim". Likewise sometimes I'll upgrade warriors to swordsmen to appear stronger in the power charts even if those units are nowhere near battle front, just to avoid war

During the Ancient Age I'll often bulk up on defensive units and hold back on offensive, while improving city and fort defenses. This encourages the more aggresive civs to wage war on me because I'm showing up weak on the strength charts. At the same time I might carry a large cash surplus. While doing this I'll keep a stockpile chariots and warriors. When the aggressor gets tempted by a quick plunder I'll quickly upgrade to swordsmen and horseman but let him dash his forces first on my built up defenses.

-- Epilogue --

I think too often the people that dismiss Sun Tzu haven't spent the necessary time studying his principles and applying them in their chosen scenarios.

Theseus · October 26, 2003, 16:14

I read a LOT... science fiction, thrillers, military history, general history, business stuff... and I often try to apply what I read to Civ3.

In addition to the books mentioned in previous posts (ALL of which I highly recommend), I'd suggest the Dorsai series by Gordon Dickson. An excellent intersection of the broad sweep of human events and things military.

MysteryMan · October 27, 2003, 01:06

This is quoted, just cut and pasted, you all seem to know how to get exerpts, but I don't.
--->
* Use of spies...... I now use submarines routinely as spies on naval troop movements
--->
That's the only thing I build them for, especially since I have never seen a sub win a fight (except an AI sub once). This could be because I usually only use a navy on the higher levels.
--->
* Use of terrain. So many players use military rushes that they neglect or ignore the effects of terrain. How often do players use the river defense bonus or the fort bonus or the city on a hill bonus? How often to players force the enemy into bad terrain and deny them good terrain? How many times do players use terrain to hide units from the enemy's visibility? I use to leverage terrain advantage to the max while playing Civ2-Deity and am using it more and more as I progress up the difficulty tree in Civ3.
--->
I would get my butt handed to me every game if I didn't do that. I'd sure need to build a LOT of units (even at the best case....) Also, I wouldn't really feel like I was winning the game if all I did was build endless units accordig to someone else's formula. I'd rather paint a wall just to watch it dry...
--->
* Disguising weakness/hiding strength. When I first get a new decisive unit, such as knight, cavalry, or tank, I immediately park it near a border so my neighbors know I have the unit and will be afraid. It doesn't matter whether I have enough military to back up the "claim". Likewise sometimes I'll upgrade warriors to swordsmen to appear stronger in the power charts even if those units are nowhere near battle front, just to avoid war
---->
Very creative. I don't know how well this works against the AI, but most of us would fall for that ploy the first time we encountered it...

I never meant to suggest reading novels for specific tactics (ie: in this situation, build this unit and build lots of them). No one writes books about Civ III tactics. While most of my TACTICS do not come from such books (they come either from this place or wherever our ideas come from) all of my STRATEGIES do.

It is a shame that so many people skim and forget The Art of War. Actually, it is also a shame that less and less people read. If there was EVER an important idea ANYWHERE in history, someone wrote it down. It sure is a hell of a lot easier to read the explanations than it is to re-invent the wheel every time something new comes up...

Theseus · October 27, 2003, 01:38

MM, this took me forever to figure out... at the top right of each post, there is a "Reply with Quote" button. (I know...)

'Guns, Germs, and Steel' should be required reading for all Civ players.

Matter o' fact, I'm gonna finish the Ludlum I'm on (which sorta sucks), and re-read Mr. Diamond.

And, for the heathens out there, my strategy in AU105 (I think that's the right one... Son of SVC... Rome on a northern isle) was directly derived from the aforementioned Dorsai books.

vmxa1 · October 27, 2003, 03:10

MysteryMan you have two good ways to go:
1) like Theseus said use the reply with quotes
2) I use copy and past and put quotes around their stuf.
I like the reply wiht quotes and the drop the quote commands. This leave the quoted persons name and I then slap quotes around the part I part to respond to and break out each part.
Now you get to reply to each point and show it as quoted.

Yahweh Sabaoth · October 27, 2003, 10:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
'Guns, Germs, and Steel' should be required reading for all Civ players.

This is a top-notch book, and might give one an excellent idea for some MODs as well.

I'd like to HIGHLY recommend "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. This should be required reading, period. This is the history of YHWH/God/Allah, written by a former nun and master theologian. It is inspring and critical, and gives a good sense of the flow of human consciousness over the years, from the "4000 BC" era until "Cultural Victory" time if you catch my drift. It's full of detail but quite easy to read.